Jump to content

RA1 / R888


Chuck T.

Recommended Posts

Wow, haven't seen a thread like this since the old major change in the rules.

 

I have only spent two days on 888's, day one was a practice day at PIR, I coincidently ended up by Rich Geisler first thing in the morning on grid and we ran balls to the wall every inch of every lap on equal 888's, heat cycle wise, (Rich was a huge part in me getting to my level of driving back in 1997 when I moved to AZ and joined NASA) we ran 911's for a few years then he got into the nascar truck thing and I got into 944's so we haven't raced each other for years and have never raced in equal cars, we have a very similiar driving style so I don't think we were ever more than a couple of car lengths apart, as for times, a couple of years ago I ran a 1.121 in a morning practice similar to this particular morning (temp wise) on RA1's and I think I was proably driving harder this time and we ran 1.125's and 1.126's It isn't fair to say for sure that the RA1's are a half second faster but I feel safe saying they are faster, it sounds like the window of the 888's being fast is a much shorter window than the RA1's fast window. After reading this thread for the past hour, it's needless to bring up the longevity issue, no one argues that point. Saturday's race, Rich had pole I was beside of him and when the green flag dropped, we were perfectly matched all of the way to turn one and made several passes on each other through out the race and again were never more than a couple of car lengths apart and got the checkered flag .007 seconds between us. Sundays races I ran old worn ra1's and Rich was still on 888's I had pole and Rich was beside of me and when the flag dropped, Rich was on the gas a split second ahead of me which gave hima lead on me and by turn one I was ahead of him, I thought he lifted but he said he didn't, I think the weight difference in tires (rotating mass) made that much of a difference and there was enough of a difference between the stick and weight that I had a significant lead on him for the entire race and the only difference from the previous day was tires. So can tires make a difference at Nationals? I think they can make a significant difference!!!

 

I am not as passionate about the subject as alot of you guys are but I can appreciate were your coming from, what I like most about our class is how we all support each other and want equal, cheap racing. When all hell broke loose with the first rule change, 944 spec was really small compared to now, but we in AZ and most of SoCal, regardless of what was allowed in the rules prior to the official rule change didn't effect us, because we agreed to run the same car, we could have run any chip, header etc...but we all chose to run the same. Now, to be honest with you I couldn't read every word of every post on here, (A.D.D.) I didn't see were anybody said they were going to run RA1's, so why not ask, WHO IS GOING TO RUN RA1'S AT NATIONALS? All of this might not even be an issue just like it wasn't for us in AZ and most of SoCal before the official rule change. Somebody was mentioning in this post about winning or loosing the National Champioship depending on which tire they use, the fact is, the best racing in 944 spec is in the middle of the pack, so having a better tire effects everybody, not just the one who comes in first, unequal tires can drastically change the out come of the field from first to last, it can take away from giving two or more equal drivers the opportunity to have a grate race, the truth is, if car A is on RA1's and in a close battle with Car B on 888's, then Car B has a better driver and should be racing somebody other than Car A! If Car A was on 888's he could be racing somebody that is better matched for him or her and have much more fun!!!

 

For 2010, my vote is for a hard tire that will last and can be driven sideways if you want, the drifting NITTO that somebody mentioned sounds good to me!!! I don't think NASA really cares what our rules are, they are trying to please everybody which is impossible, at Fontana a couple of weeks ago, Bryan (Toyo) had one of the engineers from Toyo talking to many of the racers, 944 spec, Spec Miata etc...He really got an ear full of negative comments about the 888's then rite after that, the rule came out about allowing both tires, so I think NASA was trying to react to the complantes, all NASA wants is more racers, I can't imagine that they give a crap about what tires we run, we can vote internally and aggree to run what ever we want and our directors keep track of our points anyway, so we are kinda like our own club and NASA works really well for us, if you haven't run with other clubs, you don't know how good we have it! All the rules we have in place now were not made by NASA, we made them (our directors) and NASA accepted them and enforces them for us, we can as a group change the rules and tell them this is what we want. I n this instance, NASA did not take away a rule, they expanded them so we the customers could choose, so as a group, lets see if anybody wants to run RA1's

 

Not sure if I can make Nationals, getting there does have my undivided attention, so I hope to see you all there on 888's unless everyone of us gets a set of RA1's and if you want to show up and be the only one with RA1's you may as well paint a target on your car!!! Jus kidding, regardless of tires, the weekend is a blast, I loved it even having to deal with getting clobbered on the first morning.

 

Cheers,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 109
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • 944-Spec#94

    18

  • Chuck T.

    14

  • Weston

    13

  • Karl Zimmermann

    11

update on the Han Solo cake . It seems on day 2 it got up to 26 pages and was mostly name calling and flame throwing. The thread was then deleted. RIP pro forum users.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Norman,

 

Just to clarify...

 

The Nitto (owned by Toyo) is the NT01. I'm told the compound is the same as the RA1. Comes in 225/45 and 205/50 R15.

 

The Falken Azenis RT-615 is the long lasting tire. Comes in 205/50 R15, not offered in a 225 R15.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great post, Norm!

 

The Falken Azenis RT-615 is the long lasting tire. Comes in 205/50 R15, not offered in a 225 R15.

 

The Azenis are a great performance street tire... low cost and should last quite a while if they were only driven on the track, but they are definitely still a street tire and would add a few seconds to our lap times.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Weston,

 

The Azenis were tested three years ago at Topeka against the RA1, Hoosier and either the Kumho or Hankook or both. I'm still waiting to find out which Azenis were tested. They were about four seconds per lap slower than the other tires tested on the old Topeka configuration. Lap times should have been in the 1:45 range, so they are quite a bit slower. Question is:

 

Are you willing to give up 2-3 seconds per minute of lap time for a tire that lasts twice or more longer than the RA1?

 

I am.

 

Joe,

 

Nitto will send you a couple of sets of tires to test if you and the others are serious about specing them for this class. If you do so, please get a set of 205s to go with the 225s, so you can test both.

 

A good friend just tested the NT01s last week at full tread. He told me the tire felt just like a shaved RA1. The tire will likely become the spec tire for SSM. It does howl like the Yokohama A032Rs if anyone remembers those.

 

I called Falken today to see if they could enlighten me on the Azenis and to see if they would be willing to send out a set or two for testing. Still waiting for the call back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Joe,

 

Nitto will send you a couple of sets of tires to test if you and the others are serious about specing them for this class. If you do so, please get a set of 205s to go with the 225s, so you can test both.

 

A good friend just tested the NT01s last week at full tread. He told me the tire felt just like a shaved RA1. The tire will likely become the spec tire for SSM. It does howl like the Yokohama A032Rs if anyone remembers those.

 

Cetainly something to consider and I think we need to be open to all options. However we have had a nice relationship with Toyo for many many years when using the RA-1 so "jumping ship" is not really what I want to do if there is any other option. Now sure Nitto may be owned by Toyo, but Toyo is still using the RA-1 and R888 as tires to get their name out and our contingency is probably part of marking for the Toyo as apposed to marketing for Nitto. Another point is that I hear that some improvement may be on the way for the R888 as of this summer. Now what that means for us I can't say as I don't really know. I would not expect all our issues to magically disappear, but it does sound to me like Toyo is at least looking at this issue and trying to come up with a solution.

 

One thing that will drive some how I view this is what happens in the May event in a few weeks. I have my second set fo R888 on heat cycle 10. I may have only 2-4 heat cycles left in them, but I can't be sure. I am trying different camber settings that I started using on HC 6. Might it show a postive step in life? I should know next race weekend. As for the impact on lap times with that change it is hard to say since that track I just ran on is one we use infrequently so getting a good baseline for times or even grip is not idea there. The may event is back on our home track so I should get a good read on lap times there with revisions to set-up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, in between having the family sick and trying to fix up this old house to close escrow(yes, it closed) .....I've caught up on this thread. Thread? This is a whole yard of fabric! Sheeesh!

 

Anyway, There have been some good points made along the way.

Seems that the consensus is:

We should ALL be on the same exact tire in this spec class, especially at Nationals. I understand the sentiments about this and tend to agree.

 

Can anyone prove that TOYO has restarted making the RA-1 in the Miata size?

 

The best short term solution for our class regarding this problem is for Toyo to resume production of the RA-1, though that doesn't help you RMR and Midwest guys who've spent major bucks on the R-888.

I'm not exactly sure about Japanese culture , but I hope none of their tire engineers have to perform hairy kairy as part of admitting that the R-888 was a step backwards in development and sales. I think Toyo had 3 engineers working on the R-888's development, and ,later, 15 PR people trying to get us to believe it's a better tire. That "aggressive V-shaped tread pattern" that is supposed to make them sell hasn't worked.

And yes, I too, remember how the Yokohama A-032R tire used to howl, even when driven in a straight line. Too bad Yokohama stopped making the A-008 line....

I personally don't have any problem with our class switching to a different brand of tire if Toyo can't give us a tire as good, as cheap, and as long lasting, as the RA-1 for 2010.

We'll get through this situation without losing anybody, though some of us may gain a few more gray hairs. Rules stability is good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But don't we have to stay on the tire that supports NASA Nationally? If NASA remains with TOYO in '10 and the R888 remains unchanged, are we not stuck with it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another thought about a different brand of tire is that if we slow the class a few seconds we'll be back at the speed of the Miatas and have to deal with them or others like them in the middle of our class battles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tim,

 

If the rules are always great the class will grow to the point where there will not be other cars in the same run group. Keep it a true and economical spec class and you might just pick up a few more SM guys.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting stuff guys. Catching up on this tread has made my head hurt. The only thing from this thread that I can 100% agree on is that we all need to be on the same tire. That said, I'm pretty indifferent about the actual tire choice.

 

Of the tires mentioned, I have experience on Toyo RA1, Toyo R888, Hoosiers R6, and Nitto NT01. (Well, I've driven on the RT-615, but that's a street tire that like the 215 still tends to get greasy when driven hard.)

 

I have only run the Hoho's, RA1's, and the R888's on the spec car. I ran the NT01's on other cars.

 

Thoughts tire by tire.

 

Hoosier R6 Awesome tire. Lots of grip, but quick breakaway on edge. Very expensive for the heat cycles you get out of them. Doesn't like to be over driven. Terrible for an Enduo. Quicker on the first lap than the last lap. They suck in the rain. They seemed to like 38psi hot.

 

Toyo RA1 Great tire. Accommodates a wide variety of driving styles. Fairly consistent during a session. Very reasonable price to performance ratio. OK as rain tires with full tread. Usually fairly quick until they cord. Seemed to like right around 40psi hot.

 

Toyo R888 Good tire. Doesn't like to be over driven or slipped. Fairly progressive breakaway, though. Amazing rain tire. (The one race we did on these in the ran, my Spec car took pole over the entire IT field at an SCCA race. That was while running with 2 bent valves!) Seems to like much lower pressures, 34psi hot.

 

Nitto NT01 Good tire. Can be slipped more like the RA1, but seems to get a little greasy sooner. Wears well. The tire is much faster after a few heat cycles if you haven't shaved them. Performs so-so in the rain. Seems to like around 40psi hot, but fades quickly at 42psi or above.

 

So, what do we need? Again, I don't care as long as we are all on the same tire. I know we are all about low cost racing, but lets face it, we drive Porsches. There are a lot of cheaper ways to go racing. I vote for something that offers the best value. By value, I mean price vs. performance. Thus something like the Hoosier wouldn't be the right tire. They offer great performance, but they are pricey and have a short life. So what's the right tire? Honestly I don't know. I think the Nitto tire is at least worth looking at. The NT01 can be purchased at my local tire store for $140 each in 225/45-15. I'd be interested to see a real back to back comparison of this tire vs. the R888. Who is up for it? Some one send me a set of each and I'll let you know what I find.

 

-bj

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just bought a new set of shaved RA1's based on what Norm said about his last race at PIR and the difference he believes there is between the two.

 

It seems to me that the Nationals are the place to have some tire choices to test for next year. Get two sets and mount them on early and late wheels and let people try them out back to back. A real testing process.

 

A caution, though. There may not be anyone other than Toyo that will give up the contingency money. Over the season, that is serious money in each region.

 

Big Dog

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IA caution, though. There may not be anyone other than Toyo that will give up the contingency money. Over the season, that is serious money in each region.

 

Big Dog

 

Yes it is, For a 14 race season that comes to 400x14 = 5600 Plus 1750 for season championship = $7,350. That is good money.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can anyone prove that TOYO has restarted making the RA-1 in the Miata size?

 

Not proof... But I have an email from the Toyo marketing rep who issues their press releases, saying Toyo is not discontinuing the RA1 line production. He cc'd their tech dept for confirmation, waiting to hear back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Phil's Tire, a pretty reliable source, has posted that the SM size RA-1 is back in production. If this can be done for us as well, and for the long term, it's a BIG development.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well if the RA-1 is going back into production and will be that way for year to come we have a winner.

 

However I would like to see something from Toyo if that is really the case.

 

Untill then RA-1 despite being a great tire is not a solution.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

just got this email from Toyo....

 

HI Gary,

Your email was forwarded over to me. To answer your question, we will NOT be producing more tires in the RA1 sizes except for a limited additional production of the 205/50ZR 15.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Stan Chen

Manager of Events and Motorsports

Toyo Tire U.S.A. Corp.

 

So there it is there then. I guess the marketing guy was wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Michael,

I don't think we're stuck with any tire, but we might have to trade off the contingency money.......

 

Hoosier already offers tire contingency for any open tire NASA class including PT & even TT, would probably not be hard to get 944 classes added to thier program...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

just got this email from Toyo....

 

HI Gary,

Your email was forwarded over to me. To answer your question, we will NOT be producing more tires in the RA1 sizes except for a limited additional production of the 205/50ZR 15.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Stan Chen

Manager of Events and Motorsports

Toyo Tire U.S.A. Corp.

 

So there it is there then. I guess the marketing guy was wrong.

 

I don't get it ... seems we really have no clue what is going on . Should be simple in stock or gone this inbetween is what could destroy Nationals for us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

just got this email from Toyo....

 

HI Gary,

Your email was forwarded over to me. To answer your question, we will NOT be producing more tires in the RA1 sizes except for a limited additional production of the 205/50ZR 15.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Stan Chen

Manager of Events and Motorsports

Toyo Tire U.S.A. Corp.

 

So there it is there then. I guess the marketing guy was wrong.

 

I don't get it ... seems we really have no clue what is going on . Should be simple in stock or gone this inbetween is what could destroy Nationals for us.

 

I just PM'd you his contact info, if you'd like to try to get a straight answer from the horses mouth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, agreed.

Even on something as simple as tire pressures, it's difficult to get the straight and skinny on recommendations from TOYO.

I'm not ready to give up on them just yet, but they need to give us a tire that is equal to the RA-1 in terms of durability, performance consistency, and cost.......or something BETTER!

 

Hey, BTW guys. Can we maybe stop copying the entire last post when replying to it? Just say who you're responding to and we can cut the number of pages by tons. Just a suggestion...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...