RA1 / R888

[Sterling Doc]

 

Definitely the right direction from all accounts I've seen. Also, you can NOT drive the 888 with a 20 degree plus slip angle. The carcass is based on a racing tire design whereas the RA1 was based on a street car radial. You will kill your tires if you drive them like street based tires. If the car isn't turning, don't keep sliding the tire. These are "race" cars, not farm vehicles.

 

But where's the fun in that?

 

Drifting farm equipment sounds like big fun, though!

[944-Spec#94]

But where's the fun in that?

 

Drifting farm equipment sounds like big fun, though!

 

 

Eric you live farm land right?

 

 

Ha did you know why my first engine swap was done with.. Cherry picker... Ha John Deere bucket loader!!!

 

I do have agree with Dave. Limiting the sliding is important

[cbuzz]

I run 2-2.5 front camber and 1.5 rear. Starting pressures at 30 all around and finish in the 37-38 range. This is alot lower pressure than I have read about but this is what is working for me at So-Cal tracks.

 

Pressures and camber degree was based on tire temp testing.

 

I am at 12 cycles now and tires look good but did drop off after 10 heat cycles.

[Weston]

These are "race" cars, not farm vehicles.

 

Yeah, lets leave the farming to the AI / CMC guys!

[Weston]

If NASA keeps doing dumb things, we may want to think about going the 944 Cup route.

 

 

The problem with Cup is that you'd still spend more money to run up front there than if you were to just buy a set of price-inflated RA-1's for Nationals (not that you should do that). Same for GTS.

[schwank]

Just to update my earlier post, looks like the earlier info I had was optomistic.

 

I ordered RA1's last week... just got the call today and they received 888's. When I requested the RA1's instead I was told that there were only 4 left at the warehouse. So, while the earlier guy wasn't 'wrong' that they were 'in stock at the warehouse'... they aren't anymore.

 

Being the PNW, I would rather have RA1's for rains at the very least. So I guess that is what the last set available in the region will be reserved for.

 

888's it is for me too. I guess I could hit the Hoosier pipe. With the price increase of 888's there is not as much delta in cost anymore.

[cullen winter]

I'm happy to see such sound thinking and reasonable response to NASA's announcement, which created a bit of an ugly stir. Nice to know that our directors have such a passion for preserving the integrity of our class. I hope nobody went out and spent "collectors item" money for those last few sets of RA-1s.

[schwank]

No but thanks for the idea!!!!

 

Locally RA1's were about $15/tire cheaper than 888's.

[Weston]

No but thanks for the idea!!!!

 

Locally RA1's were about $15/tire cheaper than 888's.

 

 

"were" is the key word there. Some people are already hoarding and jacking up the price of RA-1's as a result of NASA's announcement.

[Chuck T.]

I did my best to buy / set aside all of the RA-1's in the United States. When we figure out what the big plan is I will release them to be sold to non 944-spec racers . Or 944-spec racers who will not use them at Nationals.

[cullen winter]

Nice Chuck, I checked Panama, Jamaica and Guam, and there were none available down there

[bpanther]

"were" is the key word there. Some people are already hoarding and jacking up the price of RA-1's as a result of NASA's announcement.

 

Weston, can you back this up with proof? Of the Toyo distributors I called, not one is asking for more $$$.

[Weston]

"were" is the key word there. Some people are already hoarding and jacking up the price of RA-1's as a result of NASA's announcement.

 

Weston, can you back this up with proof? Of the Toyo distributors I called, not one is asking for more $$$.

 

Chuck found this: http://www.wheelsnext.com/tires/Toyo-Proxes%20Ra_1.html

$208/each for 225/50-15

[Big Dog]

To clarify my comment about going the 944 Cup route was not to propose that we go to 944 Cup rules. My intent was to suggest that we write our own rule set, get our own national organization set up and allow our group to control our own rules in the future. It is my understnading that the 944 Cup folks are not a NASA owned class. They have their own organization and chose when and where to race, make deals with promoters (including NASA) to buy track time during others events and run their own show within the promoters venue.

 

There are many groups that do this. In Nor Cal, the Porsche Racing Club does this. They run their own program and have their own championship.

 

I am suggesting that we may want to think about having our own group so NASA can't impose things on our large and growing national presence. We, as the racers that make our group successful (and spend lots of effort to promote it), should have more say in our rules. It seems to me that we have NO say. The last rule change destroyed the So Cal NASA 944 group and it has taken time to get it building back up. We don't need and I don't want a repeat of that over and over again. If we have our own organization, we can cooperate with NASA but we would be in control of our own rule set.

 

Think about it, racers.

 

Big Dog

[Weston]

To clarify my comment about going the 944 Cup route was not to propose that we go to 944 Cup rules. My intent was to suggest that we write our own rule set, get our own national organization set up and allow our group to control our own rules in the future. It is my understnading that the 944 Cup folks are not a NASA owned class. They have their own organization and chose when and where to race, make deals with promoters (including NASA) to buy track time during others events and run their own show within the promoters venue.

 

There are many groups that do this. In Nor Cal, the Porsche Racing Club does this. They run their own program and have their own championship.

 

I am suggesting that we may want to think about having our own group so NASA can't impose things on our large and growing national presence. We, as the racers that make our group successful (and spend lots of effort to promote it), should have more say in our rules. It seems to me that we have NO say. The last rule change destroyed the So Cal NASA 944 group and it has taken time to get it building back up. We don't need and I don't want a repeat of that over and over again. If we have our own organization, we can cooperate with NASA but we would be in control of our own rule set.

 

Think about it, racers.

 

Big Dog

 

 

That thought had crossed my mind as well, but it also reminds me that there certainly are benefits of being a real NASA class. From my point of view, it still makes more sense to remain a NASA class at this point. If this tire business ruins Nationals for us, then I may have to change my mind on that, but it sounds like our directors are working hard to prevent that.

[philstireservice]

"were" is the key word there. Some people are already hoarding and jacking up the price of RA-1's as a result of NASA's announcement.

 

Weston, can you back this up with proof? Of the Toyo distributors I called, not one is asking for more $$$.

 

Chuck found this: http://www.wheelsnext.com/tires/Toyo-Proxes%20Ra_1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

$208/each for 225/50-15

 

 

For starters these guys are not Toyo Motorsport dealers, secondly that is there normal price..........

[944-Spec#94]

Weston why are you fearing the RA-1?

 

I am using my 2nd set of R888's and have over the years run through 6-7 sets of RA-1. I also have run 10 races at PIR using both RA-1 and R888. Over the 10 race days on a track I know well in temperature from 100F to 60F I have seen how the R888 perform. It my assesment that they are very equal in ultimate lap times. This is also supported by testing done on Honda H4 and H2 cars using 225/45 R15 R888 and RA-1. That testing as mentioned in the AI forums show no difference in ultimate lap times no a change in consistancy during a run.

 

Now we do know if you slide the R888 alot it can go away. Well some of that is driving style and I tend to think there is some that can be gain by set-up changes. I think we can tune the chassis for the R888 and that will minimize that concern.

 

So what does this leave. Life? That is a big issues since in my experience the R888 last half as long as the RA-1. This is bad for the 944 spec class since it double the tire bill which most of us are not set-up for. The RA-1 would last forever and still bring back competitive lap times. Two weekend in the R888 and they are done for. That is not good at all.

 

So National has recognized alot of the concerns, but given the data they have from their own testing and many other souces the speed difference is wash. I agree and think .. no I KNOW a good driver will be fast on either tire. So just because someone shows up a national with an RA-1 does not mean they will win. It does not mean they will beat you either. Unless of course they are faster drivers.

 

So again why fear the RA-1? Why say this the end of spec racing? I have been apart of this class for 7 years now and have seen it grow and go through tough times. This will only destroy the class if we the drivers let it. If we start complaing about RA-1 driver "cheating" and such it will hurt the class far more than having two tires. No lets realize that despite the R888 or RA-1 the better driver will take the spot in in the race. Lets not let emotion and outrage over a percieved in justice ruin the best class in NASA.

[944-Spec#94]

Well, this is certainly an interesting development. I will weigh in on this as well.

 

I believe the RA1 is a better, longer lasting tire.

 

I believe we should all race on 888's this year.

 

I believe a spec series MUST race on the same tire - period.

 

Big Dog

 

Jim,

I know the RA-1 lasts longer. However we both have run many races together. I don't feel I have ever seen a race where the winner was predetermined by being on RA-1 vs R888. Fast drivers win races on either tire. You yourself have done well on both tires and next time we race together I know you will be one watch out for on RA-1 or R888.

 

Now any spec series should be on the same tire. That is true. However we are in a transition right now. An ugly messy transition where the "new and improved" tire is not really better than the old tire. So what to do? Well NASA is aware of the life issues on the R888 and feels that the lack of life is bigger concern than any speed difference. Now why come to that conclusion? It was not out of thin air, but from data sent to them from many sources. So I have to give them credit for reacting to that rather than saying "Sorry guys your are screwed to by double the tire bill for 2009". Sure some will not be happy, but the past 18 months of two tires has not cause a major landslide in winner and losers.

 

Just so you know Jim my goal is to have a good long lasting single tire for 2010 and beyond. Our class depends on it.

[Karl Zimmermann]

This class could be loads of fun on the Falken Azenis. The tire is slow and meant to drift, but it would last forever. Think of all the great videos.

 

I understand Toyo now owns Nitto, but I wonder if someone could approach Nitto and ask them for a free set of NT01s to test as a possible spec tire. Earl was really good about that when he was with Toyo. The NT01 is also quite a bit less than the R888.

[Weston]

I don't "fear" the RA-1, I just think it's bullshit to have two tires in a "spec" class, especially when one of them clearly isn't available for all. Then on top of that, everyone who races on a budget had already committed to the other tire because we were explicitly told that it is the one and only spec tire. I'm just glad that Chuck and the other directors have done what they could to nullify this nonsense.

[mcmmotorsports]

Okay, I have been reading EMAIL AFTER EMAIL AFTER EMAIL and POST AFTER POST AFTER POST and wanted to post my thoughts.

 

Is the R888 the same tire the RA-1 is/was? No.

Is the future of 944-SPEC racing on a tire that has 1/2 the life of the RA-1 healthy for this series? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Truth be known, one of the main reasons I chose to head up 944-SPEC in the SE was because of the tire rule. Now, if we (I) have to spend 2-3 times as much on tires to race, I would probably be looking for another series really soon. HOWEVER, we have a sanctioning body that listens to its members AND REACTS!

NASA decided to allow the RA-1 to help cut costs for us in 2009. They could have let everyone drown in a tire bill by not doing anything. I got a pretty good feeling most of you, the 944-SPEC racers, would have been frustrated, crying fowl and probably pack up and leave long before the end of the season. This decision, while it might not be the "best" one, was necessary to keep the series afloat in 2009. I am sure NASA with the help of its members and Toyo will have a solution that appeals to EVERYONE in 2010. We just need to weather through this storm and all will be well.

 

Personally, I am going to remain on the R888 for 2009. Reason being is simple, I am new to 944-SPEC, 944-SPEC is new to the SE region and we don't have the cars yet for this to be an issue. I don't have the experience with the RA-1 to justify changing tires after working on the setup with my R888's and honestly, I am just out there having fun right now. It is not about tenths of seconds yet for me and our region. In addition, I have not seen the wear yet and have 8 new tires that I am hoping will make it through the season for me. If I have to buy 4 more for Nationals, I will and they will be R888's.

[bpanther]

Weston, can you back this up with proof? Of the Toyo distributors I called, not one is asking for more $$$.

 

Chuck found this: http://www.wheelsnext.com/tires/Toyo-Proxes%20Ra_1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

$208/each for 225/50-15

 

 

For starters these guys are not Toyo Motorsport dealers, secondly that is there normal price..........

 

Thanks for clearing that up. I suspected this was the case as the normal motorsports dealers (i.e. Phil, Tommy, Bryan, Vilven, AIM, etc) would not do something like take advantage of racers. In addition they would be hung out to dry if they ever pulled a stunt like that.

 

OK - one more internet rumor bites the dust!!! It would be cool if anyone who posted somewhere that RA1 prices were going black market pricing would go back and edit their posts.

[bpanther]

To clarify my comment about going the 944 Cup route was not to propose that we go to 944 Cup rules. My intent was to suggest that we write our own rule set, get our own national organization set up and allow our group to control our own rules in the future. It is my understnading that the 944 Cup folks are not a NASA owned class. They have their own organization and chose when and where to race, make deals with promoters (including NASA) to buy track time during others events and run their own show within the promoters venue.

 

There are many groups that do this. In Nor Cal, the Porsche Racing Club does this. They run their own program and have their own championship.

 

I am suggesting that we may want to think about having our own group so NASA can't impose things on our large and growing national presence. We, as the racers that make our group successful (and spend lots of effort to promote it), should have more say in our rules. It seems to me that we have NO say. The last rule change destroyed the So Cal NASA 944 group and it has taken time to get it building back up. We don't need and I don't want a repeat of that over and over again. If we have our own organization, we can cooperate with NASA but we would be in control of our own rule set.

 

Think about it, racers.

 

Big Dog

 

Yes, think about it and then call your regional class director and your regional director and ask them if they think this would kill 944Spec as the class you know and have grown to love (even with some of the occasional BS you have to deal with).

 

Jim (or anyone else) call me if you disagree. 303-539-9363

 

 

Sorry.... I'll now let you return to the 888/RA1 discussion

[944-Spec#94]

...Then on top of that, everyone who races on a budget had already committed to the other tire because we were explicitly told that it is the one and only spec tire. ...

 

Weston,

You need to realize that not every one on a budget has commited to a Tire. In Arizona we have never had group buys for tires. Never one. We have aways just gone over to Bryan at Toyo's Only and order tires when we needed them. Most guys have at most two usable sets. One primary and one back up and when they are down to one set it is time to get another. It is the budget way to buy as you go rather than stock pile for the season.

 

Right now I have 1 set of good tires and 2 sets of used up tires. I have a race next weekend and I have a set of tires I can run, but no back up I case I screw up and damage a tire. So I need to have another set ready to go and I need to buy tires. If I want to "Save money" what do I buy? I know I am not the only guy like this in Arizona, So-Cal or Nor Cal.

 

My take is that if the speeds are very close (less than driver consistancy levels) between the two how does it hurt to let those who want to go with the 1/2 price tire save money and buy it? It won't make you spend a dime more. Sure spec should mean one single tire, but we might as well spec a Hoosier if don't also take into account life cycle cost of the tire. Remember when National orginally spec'ed the R888 to replace the RA-1 the idea was it would still provide the long usable life like the RA-1. Nobody predicted the much shorter lifespan making the R888 a less than ideal spec tire.

 

Now where does this leave us for 2010? Frankly I don't know. I have been in discussions with my local tire dealer and National on the life issues for the R888. There are no simple answers no simply easy alternative tires from any manufacture. The RA-1 was gem for it super long life and that is very hard to match. Now I have heard that thier might be some changes coming for the summer. Now frankly I am not sure at all what that means as in a DOT certed tire you just can't change things easily. You need to get the DOT to approve big changes and that takes time. Even so realize that the RA-1 allowance is a reaction to the R888 life concerns and is not an attept to create problems.

[Big Dog]

Joe, while I appreciate what your points are, there is a very real perception that RA1'a are faster. This perception is held by lots of different people in wide areas of the country and in various series. I believe the RA1's are faster at PIR than 888's.

 

Am I in favor of a longer lasting tire (faster or slower), you bet. But one tire for everyone, not tire choices in a spec class. Why not ask Toyo for more help for tires like lowering the price for us for this year while we figure out an alternitive?

 

If RA1's are not widely available to anyone that wants them, now what do you do? You have yet another perception of the have's and have not's. Not compatible to our spec racing community where we all help each other to get back on the track, even it it means I will get beat by the guy I am helping. Of course, if the RA1's are widely available to anyone that wants them, that changes the equation SOME, not all the way thought. So, for there to be much real discussion about this, we need to know if RA1's are/will be widely available to us when we want them. I am led to believe that they will not be but would like to know "officially" and be able to order them from Bryan.

 

My last point is that none of us were consulted about this idea before it was done by NASA. Not just us in our class but any racers in any class. WHY? NASA is acting like a dictator here and not a partner. We are the customer here. We, the racers, are an important customer and our views were not even solicited in this issue. In my view, NASA needs to stop conducting business like this and commit to that for the future.

 

We all, racers and NASA, got into this mess because we racers were not consulted IN ADVANCE. There was no comprehensive testing by any of the classes before NASA dictated the tire change. It seems they simply reacted to what Toyo wanted without questioning. Perhaps because of their financial support by Toyo, I really don't know. I do think that we would have found the wear issue had we been provided an opportunity to test a "proposed" tire in advance. We were not given that opportunity.

 

I would hope that this mistake will not be repeated for 2010 and that we will be given an opportunity to test any tire that is being proposed as a replacement for our current mess. We racers deserve that much.

 

Big Dog