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RA1 / R888


Chuck T.

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In norcal, this won't change our plan of having people not buy new ra-1s. we have several guys with RA-1s still with usable life. This is great for them to continue running their old tires and save some money. Greg and I are on R-888s and we both have two sets. I have no extra set of RA-1s lying around and do not plan to buy any. I will certainly be running the R-888 the rest of the year and nationals.

 

Also in Utah last year, the fastest spec944 times were set on R-888s anyway, right?

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I would hope that this mistake will not be repeated for 2010 and that we will be given an opportunity to test any tire that is being proposed as a replacement for our current mess. We racers deserve that much.

 

Big Dog

 

Jim I am right with you there. Being 100% honest with you I have no idea what 2010 holds. The good news is that all this contorversy brings this issue right up to the top.

 

As for the annoucement. All the 944 directors found out when everyone else did.

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Also in Utah last year, the fastest spec944 times were set on R-888s anyway, right?

 

Yep,

For the both 3.0 and 4.5 mile tracks Jim Foxx ran the fastest lap in 944 spec. Neither were offiical track records however since they were set in the enduro (running as E2) and the pursuit race on sunday.

 

Todd Imwold ran under that Jim's times in a PCA event late last year. I don't know if he was on RA-1 or R888.

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...Then on top of that, everyone who races on a budget had already committed to the other tire because we were explicitly told that it is the one and only spec tire. ...

 

Weston,

You need to realize that not every one on a budget has commited to a Tire. In Arizona we have never had group buys for tires. Never one. We have aways just gone over to Bryan at Toyo's Only and order tires when we needed them. Most guys have at most two usable sets. One primary and one back up and when they are down to one set it is time to get another. It is the budget way to buy as you go rather than stock pile for the season.

 

When I say "budget", I'm talking about many of us who have to get by for the majority of a season on one set, without a backup set. I bought fresh R888's for the start of this season because I had to (last year's set was very badly trashed and unsafe to use), and I don't plan to buy another set of tires until near the time of Nationals. I'll probably have to limit my track time a bit to make R888's last that long. Not only will we not be able to find RA-1's that late, but that's also a hell of a time to be making a tire change. So, for all intents and purposes, I'm already committed to R888's, and many others are in the same boat. For some of us it's a matter of principal, and for some it's money... either way, many people have already spent money on R888's because NASA clearly stated that there would be no other choice.

 

In any case, what's done is done. Many of us feel that we got the short end of the stick here, and the only thing that will change that is either to ban RA-1's from Nationals, or to make enough available for everyone and at least let us exchange our R888's for them. Simply banning RA-1's from 944-Spec Nationals seems like the practical option.

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When I say "budget", I'm talking about many of us who have to get by for the majority of a season on one set, without a backup set. I bought fresh R888's for the start of this season because I had to (last year's set was very badly trashed and unsafe to use), and I don't plan to buy another set of tires until near the time of Nationals.

 

Weston,

I have not counted the number of events you have between now and nationals, but you may need to plan for another set of tires. If you plan to push hard and complete for wins I don't think the R888 will last longer than 12-14 heat cycles. My first set of R888 lasted until HC 13. Heat cycle 13 was a race and I ran good times early, but the tires went away to the tune fo 2 seconds a lap over a 1:14 lap. I though I over drove and so next tim out I ran them in practice to see if they were any good. However they were very slick and scary. I ran a deceint time, but that was one the edge about read to go off. To keep them under me I simply had to back off. So I put on my new set and the car was fine. My last set of RA-1 when 27 Heat Cycles before they went off similar to those R888s.

 

So if you expect to have the R888 last most of the season you will either need to find the magic to make them last or be very easy on the tires and probably be off the pace.

 

Now is this a scary popostion? Sure thing! It was in fact what National was trying to deal with by allowing the RA-1 even if it was done a clumsy manner.

 

Like I said earlier my goal is to have a much longer lasting tire for 2010.

 

BTW... Just so you know my set of tires will be R888s and not the 4/32 shaved RA-1's my dealer has laying around. I decided to commit to these and am trying improve their performance by pulling out some camber from the car. It is about 25 mintues less in front and about 20-30 minutes less in the rear. It appears form the wear on my used up R888 that the inside 1/3 of the tire seems more worn down despite all the rotations around the car. So based on this and the reports that the tires need less camber I and taking some out. From about 3.5 F / 2.5 R to 3.1F and 2.1 R.

 

Last year I went closer to 3.0 on the front with RA-1 I got bad full throttle understeer. This might be different. Subjectivly the R888 seem to have more "bite" than the RA-1's and as such this camber change many not incude that understeer and also perserve in the inside 1/3 of the tire more allowing both more overall heat cycles and better performance during the course of a run.

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Man this thread has legs. I actually don't understand the issue some people have with letting old tires get used up. Perhaps with the timing of the notice from NASA, but to complain that you'll lose cause you run 888's is crazy.

 

So what if someone outspends you and beats you. You make your own decisions about your personal investment to race. My competition runs Hoosiers and I choose to run Toyos to save money. I could spend more but choose to be slower. Does that mean I have less fun? Nope. I fail to understand why you guys would let that ruin a season of racing. If you aren't bitching about LSD when you have open diff, then why about tires. Same deal. You choose how expensive to make it. If you want dirt cheap racing, build a pinewood derby car. If you want to run with the big boys it takes money.

 

I was all set to buy 888's again this year, but given the availability of RA1's I chose those for the wet capability, and they were $15/ea cheaper as well. I am not bound by spec rules and do not compete in spec races, and I don't run the same tire size anyway. Why not legislate that 968 M030 bars or Weltmeister sways are illegal too... those never came stock on any 83-88 NA 944 and they surely cost good money.

 

If each person in this thread is that concerned about the difference between tires, you must all be such awesome drivers that you all have a chance at winning nationals... otherwise that small difference isn't going to matter. If someone thinks that stockpiling a certain (old) tire at a higher cost to them will make them faster in two years, good for them. I'll take my money and keep racing, and get better that way.

 

Just offering a different viewpoint. As long as you have rubber you can race. No one can read the make of the tire at 100mph.

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Man this thread has legs. I actually don't understand the issue some people have with letting old tires get used up. Perhaps with the timing of the notice from NASA, but to complain that you'll lose cause you run 888's is crazy.

 

So what if someone outspends you and beats you. You make your own decisions about your personal investment to race. My competition runs Hoosiers and I choose to run Toyos to save money. I could spend more but choose to be slower. Does that mean I have less fun? Nope. I fail to understand why you guys would let that ruin a season of racing. If you aren't bitching about LSD when you have open diff, then why about tires. Same deal. You choose how expensive to make it. If you want dirt cheap racing, build a pinewood derby car. If you want to run with the big boys it takes money.

 

I was all set to buy 888's again this year, but given the availability of RA1's I chose those for the wet capability, and they were $15/ea cheaper as well. I am not bound by spec rules and do not compete in spec races, and I don't run the same tire size anyway. Why not legislate that 968 M030 bars or Weltmeister sways are illegal too... those never came stock on any 83-88 NA 944 and they surely cost good money.

 

If each person in this thread is that concerned about the difference between tires, you must all be such awesome drivers that you all have a chance at winning nationals... otherwise that small difference isn't going to matter. If someone thinks that stockpiling a certain (old) tire at a higher cost to them will make them faster in two years, good for them. I'll take my money and keep racing, and get better that way.

 

Just offering a different viewpoint. As long as you have rubber you can race. No one can read the make of the tire at 100mph.

 

All good thoughts from a "Cup" point of view. and 100% why this is a big deal to "SPEC" .

 

My wifes BB has a thread that went to 16 pages in one day fighting about a Han Solo cake. we are are no where near that so as long as we play nice ... keep talking.

 

"I HATE the R888's" The Capt.

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The whole point of Spec (were absolutely NOT racing cup) is that you dont need big $$ to run with the big boys. Im definitely a budget racer, and so is Weston, and we both have our own plan for Nationals and should be able to do so competitively. Its argued that RA-1s arent any faster, and any advantage is simply perceived. I dont want to test this theory at Nationals which will be a very large piece of pie of my budget this year. This is why RA-1/ R888 is a big deal to spec, tires are more of an issue than sway bars or LSD because they are the biggest consumable and variable on a race car... apples and oranges here. From what I've seen in this, and other threads is that, people coming from other classes really cant understand why this issue is so important to us because other classes use other methods of leveling playing fields. Those philosophies, like weight/ hp, etc, are fine for those classes but are against the basis of why we race spec.

 

Now that I'm off of my soapbox, lets have some fun, equal, racing this season like always.

 

on a side note: Arizona region may need RA-1s (and Depends) to keep up with Rocky Mountain folks.

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... Its argued that RA-1s arent any faster, and any advantage is simply perceived. I dont want to test this theory at Nationals which will be a very large piece of pie of my budget this year. ...

 

I have been testing this theory for a year now. When it comes to lap time the R888 are decient, but they take more effort to dial in a set-up. The RA-1 are easy since you bolt them on run them at 38 psi hot and go on you merry way. The R888 are a little more complex given the set-up changes, but you can still win races on them. So this no theory as I have run these back to back on the same car on the same days and have been watching my R888 lap times closely. If you think the RA-1 is clearly faster what is your data from back to back testing to show that? If you say "I don't have any" then why do you persist in why told by those with data it does not show a clearly faster tire.

 

 

Nationals is also a very large chunk of my budget too so it is important, but I know where it stands in the order of my racing this year.

 

 

In the end you and Weston need to realize a couple things.

1) No form of racing is ever 100% equal. We series organizers try, but still have to work in a number of constraints.

 

2) Nationals will be tough... VERY TOUGH. They best way to have fun at nationals is to prepare your best and not worry too much. Let the chips fall where they may and just strive to do your best. I will go and and will bring what I have. I hope it will be enough, but if not? Oh well no complaints and just look forward to being in the biggest 944 spec race ever.

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Joe wrote about the Nationals:

just look forward to being in the biggest 944 spec race ever.

 

I'd just like to add that it will be fun to race......but how much more fun will it be to talk about Han Solo cakes?

 

p.s. Someone convince Steve to sell me his messed up tranny with the LSD and short fifth.

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In the end you and Weston need to realize a couple things.

1) No form of racing is ever 100% equal. We series organizers try, but still have to work in a number of constraints.

 

2) Nationals will be tough... VERY TOUGH. They best way to have fun at nationals is to prepare your best and not worry too much. Let the chips fall where they may and just strive to do your best. I will go and and will bring what I have. I hope it will be enough, but if not? Oh well no complaints and just look forward to being in the biggest 944 spec race ever.

 

We fully realize these things. Just because we don't agree with you doesn't mean that we don't understand the issues. Obviously, many people feel that allowing two tires in a spec tire class, especially when one isn't available to everyone, is pretty counter-productive to #1 and pretty ridiculous in general. Even if RA-1's aren't any faster than R888's in general, they are still different tires that will be favorable in certain conditions and certain driving styles, so they are clearly not equal. I don't think I have to tell you that tires are a pretty big deal in a low power spec class where everyone is supposed to be on the same tires. As for #2, I expect and welcome the challenge, so long as the playing field is reasonably level. If I wanted to blow lots of money and win with my bank account, I would have continued building a SU car, not give it up for a 944-Spec so that I could focus on being a driver.

 

 

And if you set the precedent that everyone doesn't have to be on the same tire at Nationals, then you can't blame people who have the ability to get the stickier SG and GGG compound R888's that are available internationally (including Canada). I think that's wrong and would be a no-class move, but it's legal by our rules... same deal as RA-1's, but with a performance advantage that isn't even debatable. A little info from Toyo is here on this page: http://www.toyo.com.au/Proxes%20R888.htm

 

If you look at the sidewalls of your R888's, you should see the letters "GG" in about a medium size. That's the standard compound that we should all have, and it's my understanding that the other compounds are visually identical except for this marking. I've already found a few online places in the UK that sell Spec Miata sized R888's in the soft SG compound, so I'd have to expect that our size is available somewhere with different compounds too. The new GGG compound is being tested with racers in Canada and I do see people ordering them in 225/50-15 on a couple of their forums. That compound is supposed to compete with the V710, by the way.

 

So, once again, I have to say: "Spec" means the same tire for everyone. We might as well just clarify the rules now to say R888 only and standard GG compound only. Seems simple enough, especially since everyone who is "just using up old RA-1's" should be on R888's by Nationals anyway... Well, they really should have used them up last year during the real R888 transition period, but that's another tangent.

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Weston,

Thanks for the tip on the GGG and SG compounds. I do know we have only seen the GG compound and this clearly what is intended for use. The GGG and SG seem to be much softer. I will talk to my tire dealer about these this weekend and figure a course of action.

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Well,

According to my research the GGG and SG compounds are currently not availble in our 225/50 R15 size. Those two compounds have limited sizes and are not available in all markets. I did see this. It does appear that the 205/50 R15 is made in SG and GGG compounds in Japan.

 

pxr888_graph.gif

 

Too bad I can't read Japanese!

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Found this out of Norway. (not the RS1 is full slick and RR1 is wet version of that slick.)

(I had never seen 2-4 psi "lower" pressures until now)

---------

Hot & Cold Inflation Pressures for Proxes RA1 & Proxes R888: Due to a casing construction that has less sidewall deflection compared to the Proxes RA1, the Proxes R888 will provide optimum performance with hot and cold inflation pressures which are 2 - 4psi lower compared to the Proxes RA1 with the same using conditions.

 

Tread Compounds

Proxes RA1: Available in one tread compound only for all sizes. NOTE: Late production Proxes RA1s will have a UTQG Treadwear Rating of 100. Older Production Proxes RA1s will have UTQG Treadwear Ratings of either 50 or 40, depending on the tyre size. The Proxes RA1 was re-tested, and due to changes with the UTQG testing procedures, Proxes RA1s will now have a UTQG Treadwear Rating of 100. There has been no change of tread compound for the Proxes RA1.

 

Proxes R888: All Proxes R888 tyres held in stock are "GG" tread compound. The "GG" is a versatile tread compound, suitable for a wide range of applications.

The Proxes R888 is available with the "GGG" tread compound in a small range of sizes from Toyo motor sport dealers by indent order only. No "GGG" tyres are kept in stock due to a short shelf life of this tread compound. The "GGG" tread compound is suitable for a narrow range of applications only, and has a much faster wear rate compared to the "GG" compound.

The tread compound of each Toyo Proxes R888 tyre is marked on the sidewall.

 

Proxes RS1: All Proxes RS1 tyres use the same "GG" compound as used on the Proxes R888.

 

Proxes RR1: All Proxes RR1 tyres use the "SG" tread compound. This is a very soft compound that is suitable for use in on wet tarmac only. The shelf life of the "SG" tread compound is very short.

Please contact your Toyo motor sport dealer for Toyo Technical Department for information regarding suitability of tread compounds for specific applications.

 

Here is another source of information from Canada feb 2009

http://www.touringcar.ca/Public/R888PerformanceSpecs.pdf

Here is a critical Excerpt.

CAMBER AND SLIP ANGLE

The tread of the PROXES R888 is significantly wider than the PROXES RA1 and requires less

negative camber, and less slip angle to achieve even higher grip levels and cornering force values.

Due to the wider tread, using a lower camber setting will result in a more evenly dispersed contact

patch thus creating more consistent hot temperatures across the tire and improving overall

performance. Using a driving style that requires less slip angle than what’s used with the PROXES

RA1 is also recommended, as this prevents excessive heat build up and premature wear.

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Good find Joe, all the info we can get to help us get dialed in is good. I honestly do hope we can find an ultimate solution to our class, and, if a viable option is to go back to the RA-1 I am 100% behind it.

 

In my lurking of other forums I have seen toyo offering testing of the GGG compound in Canada, and, people requesting testing of tires in that compound in our size. Ill see if I can re-find the link. Regulating compound should be easy enough though.

 

I dont want anyone to get the wrong impression from my posts, I really do appreciate all the work that NASA and our Directors put into making our class the best! Sometimes a little constructive critisism is good though.

 

 

edit- after a quick search I found something, not what I was originally looking at, but relevant.

http://spda-online.ca/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4521&forum=17

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Yeah,

I found that too about GGG or 3G compound. I do think it makes sense to make it clear only GG compound of the R888 is allowed. It is stamped on the sidewalls so pretty easy to spot and if some yahoo tried to rub it out it would be pretty clear.

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OK, this doesn't affect me since I won't be racing until 2010 (except that i can't get discounted RA1's now for HPDE ). But I'm sure NASA had good intentions. Maybe responding the economy trying to save racers some money (I know my car prep has slowed to a crawl). Maybe responding to some complaints about R888's. I don't see any benefit in it for them.

 

Definitly poor judgement to announce it after the season started, on April Fools Day, with such a short posting. It's like an example of how not to have good Public Relations.

And all I saw is one sentence to explain the change. Or did I miss something?

I don't think they realized it comes across as: here ya go, this is how it is, take it or leave it, we don't have to explain ourselves to the members, take it up with your series directors.

A little PR would have gone a long way.

 

Don't let this thing kill the spirit of 944Spec. How about this....if you win on RA1, you give your Toyobucks to the nearest finishing R888

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The tread of the PROXES R888 is significantly wider than the PROXES RA1 and requires less negative camber, and less slip angle to achieve even higher grip levels and cornering force values.

 

and

 

the Proxes R888 will provide optimum performance with hot and cold inflation pressures which are 2 - 4psi lower compared to the Proxes RA1 with the same using conditions.

 

Those two statements do not work together for a 205/50 R15 on a seven inch rim. If you pull the camber and reduce the pressure you get a hot ring around the outside edge of the tire. Since we did not have the ability to increase camber we increased the pressure and the tire started to work better and the temp profile was more uniform.

 

There is a video on this site or the 944 spec site that shows a 944 spec rolling its tire. I'd be curious to know what pressure he was running.

 

A 225 on a seven inch rim should decamber itself more than a 205 on a seven inch rim as it's loaded. Add in the decambering caused by the body roll and I can't see less camber working on 2300+ pound sedans.

 

I had a Spec Miata customer test a set of R888s a year or so ago. We just mounted them up with no change to pressures or camber and he wore the outer 3/4 of an inch away such that the tire looked really odd. The wear triangles were gone as was that last 3/4 inch of the treads that go all the way out to the edge. An inch and a half in from the edge the tread was as thick as it was in the middle. Those tires started as full treads.

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Han Solo?????

 

I'd call that a Mr. Bill cake.

 

....and so begins the 16 pages of "what frosting best resembles carbonite" and "if you make a mold with a real Han Solo action figure, it won't look like Mr. Bill."

 

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any word on what we can expect at the Nationals as far as tires go?

 

After reading months ago that there would be absolutly no more 15" RA-1's made, that the molds were destroyed, now I'm seeing that Toyo is back to manufacturing new RA-1 in Spec Miata's size. I wouldn't be surprised if 225's are put back into production. Who the heck knows what to expect next.

Now I'm afraid to even buy new R888's for my 2010 build. Think I'll wait until 4/1/2010 to purchase.

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They will undoubtedly lose a huge market share if they do not figure out how to make the R888 work as well and last as long as the RA-1.

 

I am willing to run either tire. It is what we do in Porsche Owners Club and it seems to work.

 

Just hope it's not a last minute decision for Nationals.

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If you run R888 you will be fine at nationals. I ran them this weekend and made a couple set-up changes. The car really seemed to respond. However I can't say for sure since this track is one we visit infrequently. First weekend in may is back to PIR for us so I will have an excellent baseline on the impact of these changes on the R888. I did get another set of R888 for use at nationals and feel like they will be a fast if not long lasting tire.

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