RA1s vs R888s

[kbrew8991]

this kinda makes me scratch my head a little - bold added for emphasis....

 

Jimmy,

 

Here is some information. Feel free to post as you like:

 

I do know that everyone that submitted object hard data indicated that the R888 heat cycle out faster. This, coupled with the increase in per-tire cost will hit some budgets pretty hard. Furthermore, the performance has proven to be a coin flip, right down the middle. Some may argue one way or another, but any difference is completely negligible, which confirms the hard data from back to back testing, which we did ourselves last year.

 

Therefore, giving people a choice of which tire they want to run should be a good thing. Those that like the R888s (and there are some) can run them. Those that like the RA-1s and/or want to save money can use them.

 

There is no hidden motive, no hidden agenda, no backdoor deal with Toyo. We are simply responding to a need that we see, especially during harder economic times for some.

 

Since there is no proof that the RA-1 tire is any faster than the R888, then it doesn’t make sense to worry about those in CMC that want to run them. Heck, you might see bigger fields with this lower cost option.

 

We are, as always, trying to do the best in a no-win situation. Our decisions are not always perfect, but I can assure you they are always forthright and sincerely take into account what we feel will be the best for each series.

 

More…

 

We have been collecting data from events early in the season and evaluating some data from last season. We came to the conclusion that the R888s were, when dialed in, about the same in performance as the RA-1s. Yet they have a higher cost and heat cycle out sooner.

 

We approached Toyo with the data. There wasn’t much to say, except to ask about the viability of going back to RA-1s. This is not something that is good for Toyo, but they want our drivers to be happy. Since the RA-1 has been out of production since last Aug, most (if not all) of the molds are gone. However, there seems to be some decent amount of inventory left on the shelves.

 

Since we made a commitment to Toyo to use the R888; and because of limited supply of RA-1s in some sizes, we couldn’t just discontinue the R888. Plus Toyo really wants our drivers to give it a run for the money. Therefore, we felt that the very best thing to do is to allow both tires for now as we extend the transition period until the end of the year.

 

There is no way to tell what the future will hold at this point. We have agreed to meet with Toyo in a few months and see how things are going. We (Toyo and NASA) can then make a determination for the future (beyond 2009).

 

Feel free to post this message; but only in its entirety.

 

Jerry Kunzman

 

I realize the rules are probably set in stone by this point for 2009, but can we please fix this for 2010?

[Trevor57]

What exactly are you wanting?

[kbrew8991]

RA1s = +5

R888 = +5 (instead of 7)

would be ideal - but an "Ok, we'll be sure to re-evaluate all the tires in the off season" wouldn't be that bad either

 

they're supposedly the same, and this is coming from tJK.. so..

 

edit to clarify some background - that letter was sent to a friend of mine that runs Honda Challenge who was a little peeved over NASA rescinding the R888 requirement for spec tire classes (thus allowing RA1s or R888s) yesterday (April 1) for the 2009 season including NASA Nationals

[phoenixR34]

So why not just run the RA1? What happens to the Nitto tire then? Should that go down to +5? If you feel the Nitto is superior to the R888 and they're both 7 points, don't run the Toyo. It doesn't sound too difficult to me.

 

There's all kinds of evidence/data showing the BFG isn't as fast as the Hoosier, yet those are both +10. Rather than trying to move the BFG around, just run the Hoosier.

[kbrew8991]

the RA1 is unobtainum now and they've both been proven to be equal in every way that matters except wear, heat cycles, and of course on the TT/PT points sheet

 

so we're basically giving a free 2 points to people who managed to stockpile RA1s....

[RodeoFlyer]

The R888's were made +7 long before any real proof of their superiority could be obtained. If they are considered equal for all the spec classes, they should be considered equal for us. The current debacle isn't going to put many Toyo's on PT/TT cars.

 

The whole thing smells like damage control because Toyo screwed the pooch.

[Trevor57]

Move them down as soon as I burn up my set of RA1s.

[jason]

Won't this problem solve itself when the out of production tire's inventory is depleted?

[kbrew8991]

Won't this problem solve itself when the out of production tire's inventory is depleted?

 

its still not worthy of being a +7 tire though...

[Weston]

Won't this problem solve itself when the out of production tire's inventory is depleted?

 

its still not worthy of being a +7 tire though...

 

It's hard to even call the R888 a +5... you can get about the same performance out of it as a RA-1, but you have to change your setup and driving to do so. It's easier to make the most of an RA-1 than it is with an R888. The only "advantage" of an R888 is that you're pretty much guaranteed to be on a fresh set because they wear out fast.

[IGZOSTD]

The simple solution is to super-size, +3 and run the Hossiers and win a free tire or two

Buy an American product and you might just save your job in the process

[sleeperlove]

The simple solution is to super-size, +3 and run the Hossiers and win a free tire or two

Buy an American product and you might just save your job in the process

 

I'm as much a hoosier fan as anyone but budget both points and $$$ don't allow many of us to run the ho hos

[kbrew8991]

points (that damn asterix strikes again...) and TTF fields being too small to win freebies are the big hurdles here. Might win enough doing PTF though to make it worthwhile.. I'll give it a shot, as I'm pretty underwhelmed with what I'm seeing out of any other tire vs what it costs points-wise

[IGZOSTD]

I run a pretty good sized tire right now (295x18) and the Hossiers are about 60 to 80 bucks less than the 888 or the NT01

Tires are the best place to spend those points, are they not ?

[RodeoFlyer]

For the other 99% of us that aren't running 295x18's, the price difference swings the other way.

 

I just paid $280ea for Hoosiers, when the same size NT-01's are $206ea.

 

This still is not the point.

[kbrew8991]

$850 shipped for R6s

$605 shipped for R888s

 

more to the point:

$first born for RA1s that are -2 pts vs R888s and the same speed as R888s

[yakisoba]

I asked about doing this before the season opened. R888 and RA1 seem about the same, so why not make them +5? It's easy to see why they would be +7 when folks didn't know about them, but now we have several events and track time to prove that they are about the same.

 

Please, consider this my vote to move them to +5, along with RA1. Sure would make lives easier in the TTA world.

 

On a side note: I'm a huge Hoosier A6 fan for time trial. I love them. Points are tight, and I can't run them on the current vehicle. So it goes. I have a set on another set of wheels that I break out for DEs.

[Markus]

Oh lord, I hate to agree with Brewer....

 

But right now you have one part of NASA saying RA1's and R888's are equal (all the spec series like SM, 944cup, also Honda Challenge) and another part of NASA saying they aren't equal (PT/TT).

 

Obviously this doesn't make sense. But as we get closer to Nationals and NASA wants all the SM/944/HC guys to "supersize" to PT/TT...it will make even less sense.

 

This topic has been out here for a couple days, would be nice if Greg would pop in and comment?

 

- Mark

[vpnwiz]

Oh lord, I hate to agree with Brewer....

me too...

 

But as we get closer to Nationals and NASA wants all the SM/944/HC guys to "supersize" to PT/TT...it will make even less sense.

Yeah, wouldn't that be crazy if an SM on RA1's was in PTE and an SM on R888's was in PTD?! I have a feeling the national office will be fixing that soon, especially seeing as they are not allowing the CMC and 944etc. directors to bar the RA1's this year.

 

Patrick

[kbrew8991]

Oh lord, I hate to agree with Brewer....

me too...

 

oh come on, its not *THAT* bad is it?

[Markus]

Oh lord, I hate to agree with Brewer....

me too...

 

oh come on, its not *THAT* bad is it?

 

 

Where is Meze when we need him? If he agrees with Brewer then you know things are messed up!

[Shawn M.]

This topic has been out here for a couple days, would be nice if Greg would pop in and comment?

 

- Mark

 

 

We were racing in Arizona this weekend and thusly offline as such.

 

So, whats the problem again??

[kbrew8991]

So, whats the problem again??

 

two tires that are the same speed (as they're telling EVERY spec tire class) aren't the same points and we'll look stupid if/when these guys supersize to TT and/or PT

[Greg G.]

We are looking into it. However, for now, there are no changes to the PT/TT rules regarding tires. Also, FYI, we have not seen any problems with Spec Miata, 944, or Spec E-30 supersizers due to the 2 points extra for the R888's--they are all still in the same PT classes that they have crossed over into in the past. Also, a decision made regarding only two models of a given tire in Spec series (especially when it is potentially just a temporary adjustment) certainly does not take into account (and is not necessarily applicable) to our series that has numerous other tire brands and models listed alongside the R888. Is the R888 better or worse than the multiple other tires listed in the +7 point category? Lastly, as always, YOU have a choice, where the Spec series drivers didn't. If you don't think that the R888 is worth +7 points, then use one of the many others, OR, (as this recent Spec ruling allowed for the Spec drivers) use the RA-1's that are left over (and the few being put back into limited production). Nobody ever restricted your ability to use the RA-1, which is what the Spec ruling was about. They seem to last longer than the R888, just like they last longer than just about every other DOT approved R compound available (that are for the most part, faster than the RA-1 initially before they begin to drop off). As well, NASA's concern in making the ruling regarding the Spec series was whether the RA-1 was a faster tire than the R888 before they let the RA-1 back into their series. The data showed that they were NOT faster. There was some data that showed that the R888 was faster, but the R888 was the spec tire. So, if a spec driver wanted to use the RA-1, NASA did not feel that it would be a problem.

 

However, we are looking into this still to determine if there are any changes to be made in TT and PT.

[kbrew8991]

didn't say the whole +7 category needed moved, just that one tire (imho) - and I guess it isn't as big a deal if it doesn't affect their Super-Size classing... I thought some like SpecE30 might be close to going over but I guess not.

 

the "We're going to reevaluate then for 2010" works for me, esp since I'm sure the supply of RA1s will dry up by then making them not commonly availible (which is the biggest problem imho).