Rizzolo Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 my '64.5 mustang came with only lap belts. do i need to upgrade the belt for the passenger in order to do HPDE. i am assuming that coach/mentor may ride along sometimes. i installed a roll cage (and kirkey seat for driver) in order to install a harness for he driver (and so i wouldn't slide around. i can probably install a shoulder harness type belt for the passenger, using the roll bar loop to attach the shoulder strap. The question is: will modifying the belt trigger a requirement to go with a harness for the passenger? I don’t know that i can install a harness with the stock seat. So if I can't, would I also need to upgrade the passenger seat? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKnight Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Hi David. Sorry I couldn't show you around on Saturday. Darn Camaro! Actually, sounds like you got more rides than I did. I think I have read that the passenger safety restraint must be equal to the driver's safety restraint - I'm not sure where I read that though, or for which organization. Either way, I don't think NASA would ok just a lap belt for instructors, and if they did, I don't think an instructor would want that ride (regardless of whether it was your first event or hundred and first). Might be more expensive, but I think it will pay off in the long run to get a different seat in there that will accomodate a harness. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonny Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 The NASA CCR doesn't specifically address the px restraint system other than to say it has to have a "modern" restraint system whether it be stock or aftermarket. No where does it mention the px & driver's restraint system be equal. That having been said, however, different regions may have different rules which may augment/supercede (but not violate) the national CCR. I've also seen Instructors refuse to get into a student's vehicle b/c the restraints were different for driver & px. According to CCR section 11.4.8, lap belts WITHOUT shoulder belts are prohibited for both driver & px. Aftermarket restraint systems must conform to CCR section 15.5. Since the seat isn't part of the restraint system, per se, you don't necessarily have to upgrade the px seat to a racing seat as well. Just for my own piece of mind, I have equal restraints for px & driver in my car. As the driver, I feel responsible for the safety of the Instructor. To that end, besides trying to drive the way they tell me to, the least I can also do is ensure they have equal safety equipment to mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKnight Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 The NASA CCR doesn't specifically address the px restraint system I was thinking of: 4.6.4. Passengers must use the same safety equipment and attire as required of the driver. Which does not specifically address passenger restraint. I'm not sure what safety equipment it is referring to. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonny Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 The NASA CCR doesn't specifically address the px restraint system I was thinking of: 4.6.4. Passengers must use the same safety equipment and attire as required of the driver. That section specifically excludes the Instructor as a "passenger". I guess we need to clarify Rizzolo's question when he asked about passengers: Do you mean passenger as in the Instructor or a px who comes along as a ride-along? If you mean ride-along, then section 4.6.4 seems to imply the px have the same restraint system as the driver. If you mean Instructor, then any modern restraint system which consists of at least a lap & shoulder belt should suffice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NASA Jim Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 If you mean Instructor, then any modern restraint system which consists of at least a lap & shoulder belt should suffice. You might want to consider that your instructor won't want to get in your car with just a lap belt. Most instructors want at least the same protection the driver has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmw22 Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Always put your self in your instructors shoes. Ask yourself: "Would I get in this car as a passenger with a driver I don't know who will be driving as fast and hard as he/she can?" Lapbelts only? No friggin way. Restraint's equal to the driver's? May not be required by the rules, but I won't get in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonny Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 NASA Jim: You might want to consider that your instructor won't want to get in your car with just a lap belt. Most instructors want at least the same protection the driver has. Like I said above, the CCR expressly states just a lapbelt for either the driver or passenger/Instructor is NOT allowed. You must have at least lapbelt AND shoulder belt. bmw22: Restraint's equal to the driver's? May not be required by the rules, but I won't get in. And as I stated above, some Instructors might not get into your car with you if the restraint system for them isn't equal to the driver's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanceMach Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 David, I think that the CCR is saying that the passenger must have the same equipment that is required for the driver. That doesn't necessarily mean that you have to have identical equipment (in other words, you can go full boogy for the driver, but the passenger must at least meet the minimum requirements for whichever group you're in). Having said that, I would always want the passenger to have the same equipment as me. You can install the harness with the stock seat, but I would really recommend that you lose the original low back seat (Shaun gets an earful every time he goes to an event: they just aren't safe in the event of a collision). I heard that you got some seat time at Sears Point with Shaun and Bill after I left. I was back on Sunday, driving my car. Was very impressed with how the NASA event came out and am looking forward to other events with them. Are you going to be at Sears Point for the Shelby Club Mini Nats? August 30th and 31st. Shaun, Bill and I (as well as some of the other guys that you may have met) will be driving Open Track. It's a great chance to see what other guys (and gals) have done with their cars (there will be around 150 Mustangs that are at various levels of "track preparedness," as well as a bunch of Cobras, Sunbeam Tigers and even a GT40 or two!! Drop me an email if you want the details... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z28racergirl Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 FYI, an instructor (passenger) was injured at the last Cal Speedway event, he was in an older Triumph and he had only a lap belt. It was in HPDE 4 but the driver unfortunately lost control and they hit a K-wall. The instructor got a nasty cut on his head and taken to the hospital. Driver had full harness. Instructor is fine. Just something to think about. It's not in the "rules" for passenger requirements but sometimes "oopsies" like this happen and unfortunately the instructor was hurt in this instance. I'd never thought about it. I guess I've been easy with the newbies but let me tell ya, I'm not getting in a student's car that has only a lap belt on the passenger side. To me, that means the student doesn't give a crap, or hasn't planned on giving a crap, about my safety. I'm only going to think that way to protect myself. I have a feeling that a lot of instructors are going to be feeling this way in the future. I'm sure everyone isn't going to go out and get a second full harness, but how about at least a regular three-point shoulder belt? I'm sure that could be fabbed in somehow to most cars. Now go out and have fun! Christine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan F. Posted August 5, 2003 Members Share Posted August 5, 2003 Most cars are not specifically tech inspected for the passenger because we don't know if there will be one or not. That being said the CCR states that a modern (3 point) is the minimum therefore that should the the same for the either driver or passenger. An instructor needs to make sure the car meets the minimum requirements for their safety as a double check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rizzolo Posted August 6, 2003 Author Share Posted August 6, 2003 wow, i didn't look at the forum for a while...and then there was a great outpouring of thought. funny though - once i asked the question, the answer was obvious. aside from the regs, i could not reasonably justify not getting the same belt for the passenger, so we both have equivalent 5pt harnesses. $70-80 more is nothing. i have the roll cage installed, so the harness is easy to install. the seat is a little different matter. Lance is right - the stock low seats are not safe, but i don't have a good replacement yet. i have my eyes out for a good deal on a replacement. not my highest priority yet. but it feels better having the harness. i could not see apologizing to the passenger/instructor each time i ask them to ride. and i don't think i can imagine how i would feel if someone was hurt because i cheaped out. Lance - i unfortunately will not be at the MiniNats. i know, that's bad! it was bargain i struck with the family so that i can get to Thunderhill in Sept and to Laguna Seca in Nov. Are you guys going to either of those events? if you know of a good seat for reasonable price let me know. thanks for all of the input Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanceMach Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 David, Glad to hear the car is coming along! I won't be able to make either Thunderhill or Laguna: I'm running with the Shelby Club at Thunderhill in October and, like you, I have the family to balance things out! I'll keep me eye open for a seat for you: which Kirkey seat do you have now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rizzolo Posted August 7, 2003 Author Share Posted August 7, 2003 hey Lance, i have the Kirkey intermediate road racing seat. i put it in using i/o port brackets and seat back brace. it was a lot of work to make sure to position it correctly, but worth it. i will have to drive it around for a while before i will really know if it is in the right place. for now, the stock seat goes in for the passenger, but with a harness. sorry i will miss you. it would be nice to do the October Shelby club thing. i really want to go to one of their events, but two months in a row would be a problem (not for me). maybe in the spring, by then i should have the kinks worked out. i found some great course maps on the shelby club site. i am reading the one for Thunderhill right now and i can almost feel myself going through the course. does NASA and/or SAAC run the short course or the long course at thunderhill? see you around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan F. Posted August 9, 2003 Members Share Posted August 9, 2003 Typically NASA runs the long course with the bypass instead of the crows nest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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