3barXR Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) Ok, Long story, I'll try to abbreviate, 1986 XR4Ti, was going to be a Grassroots Motorsports Challenger for 2006, my buddies and I kept going, 3 years later we're just about ready after rebuilding the car from scratch, and I mean scratch, Megasquirt, wiring harness, all mechanicals, T5 swap, alot of repairs turned into upgrades because it was cheaper so the car is HEAVILY modified, now I need it to be safe before I set foot on track. We bought the car w/a rollbar in it but it does not have the passenger support brace from the crossbrace to the main hoop. We're looking into getting it added so long as it still conforms to rules. Now to my questions: After going through the club code and rule book I've read and reread sections pertaining to Harnesses (15.5) as per HPDE rules. I have 4 points (don't ask) and I'm getting 5 points but my seats (aftermarket Bomz, I know not very good but they weren't supposed to be for organized racing) don't have anti-submarine slots. I've read around many forums and opinons/regions seem to vary about this. Some say the attach point is the only critical criteria, others its the attach point and angle to slot, some mention having 5 pointers w/o slots. I need to know which way to go, if needs be I'll have the seats modified, just want opinions, experience, feedback. Next question, the origional seat was an escort seat tack welded to some 1" bar stock piled up and tack welded to the floor, needless to say that was ridiculous, one hit with a sledge took out the whole rear support. All OEM mounting hardware was long gone by the time we got the car so I used C channel and the OEM mounting points on thefront for the aftermarket frame rails with grade 8 bolts, the rear was tricky as the OEM rails are real short for this car and overhang in the rear bad, so instead of attaching to the OEM points for the rear, I used 2" bar stock as base with C channel on top, the C channel is attached through the 2" stock + floor with grade 8 bolts and large diameter washers. I can post up pics if someone with some knowhow would be willing to weigh in. I just want to know if it'll most likely pass tech. Obviously my #1 priority before taking this thing on the track is safety, now that I've done the rest I really want to do this part right and figured this was the best place to ask. Next, I've read in the codes door gutting requires additional mods, well see these doors didn't have any panels, nor did it have an interrior. I'm wondering are there rules pertaining to adding back in plates to the floors or the doors since the glass is exposed through the OEM holes in the door structure when down, which I can't imaging is totally safe. Same goes for the floor, there's interrior venting that was covered by the sound deadening/glue I removed and now there is some airflow through the floor, obviously not safe in the event of a fuel line rupture or fire. Can anyone post pics of floors or doors to spec? We're also in the process of adding additional catch cans for the VC oil breather and a coolant overflow bottle. One more thing, the whole no primered body panels, does that mean I need a fresh coat on this beast? I've primered it after taking a few dents out and generally started reworking the terrible old Macco paint job from what looks like 10 years ago but haven't finished repainting and generally wasn't worried about it. If I need to I'll get on that too. Thanks all, sorry for the dissertation... Edited April 27, 2009 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddg Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Pics would help a GREAT deal! Especially of the roll bar and seat mounting. Without even seeing it, I'd lose the seat and get a fiberglass bucket and mount it to the floor and mount a back brace to the harness bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundguydave Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Okay, I'll answer what I feel I can offer a decent opinion on... Harness: No comment; email and/or phone your local scrutineer. The main purpose of the fifth (and/or sixth) point on the belt is to act as an anti-submarine retainer, and as such, if the main axis of tension on it is forward, towards the front of the (slotless) seat, then I doubt it will perform it's function very well. DISCLAIMER: This is only my understanding, and I am NOT a materials or structural engineer. In a crash, your body will try to move forward (inertia), and as the top half of your body is restrained by the shoulder harnesses, it will create an upward force on the lap belts, as the shoulder harnesses are solidly mounted to the rollbar behind you. As the bottom half of your body, restrained only by the lap belt tries to continue in forward motion, the upward force exerted by the shoulder harnesses on the lap belt will make the lap belt ride upwards, off your hips, putting a LOT of force on your internal organs, and not on your bone structure. The function of the anti-sub belt is to counteract the rise in the lap belt, and keep it on your hip bones, and not on your gut. IF that anti-sub belt is stretched around the front of the seat, it will be pulling on the lap belt at quite an angle, and could actually lift it off your hips, allowing you to slide down under the lap belt enough to do damage. Personally, I would vote for keeping the angle from the anti-sub slot to the belt as close to flat as possible. This is also why the recommended anti-sub belt mount point is recommended to be slightly behind the sternum when seated, as that angle would come into play as well. Seat mounting: From the description, it sounds okay, assuming the stock is of decent strength, in particular the "C-channel" that you're using. Personally, I would have fabbed up a mounting base out of the 2" bar stock, and then done side-mount brackets from 1/4" L-shaped extrusion to hold the seat to the mounting base. Again, from the description, it sounds okay. Good call on the large diameter washers under the floorpan. Major question: what have you done about a seat-back brace? Unless your seat is FIA 8855-1999 spec, AND newer than 5 years on the sticker, you'll need one to pass tech. Gutted doors: Are the doors actually gutted, or are the interior panels just stripped off? A gutted door usually means that the window regulator assembly (along with the window) have been removed, along with, and this is the important part, the crash structure inside the doors, known as door bars. IF the doors are gutted, you either need to replace them, or cage the car with NASCAR bars. The main function of the door bars are to prevent penetration of the driver's compartment in the event of a side-impact. Primer: The intent of the rule is to keep some level of appearance together. The car only has to pass the "50/50 rule:" it has to look clean and straight at 50mph from 50' away. From 50', with the car going by you at 50mph, some mild wrinkling in the sheetmetal and and rattle-can paint job won't even be noticeable. Worst case, slap a couple of sponsor stickers on the roughest spots, and shoot for contingency prizes! Seriously, the body is the last thing I would worry about. No tech inspector is going to bounce you over rough bodywork, as long as it's not going to drop parts on the track. I would, however, worry about the harnesses, seats and doors. Imagine yourself in the car doing 100+mph, smacking into a wall, and then getting T-boned. If you look at your safety package and think you'll be okay, then it'll probably pass. If the only thing that's between your hips and the oncoming car is the outer sheetmetal of the door, then you're probably not in real good shape. Just remember: for HPDE, stock is good, but ANY changes need to conform to the competition spec. Especially with respect to safety items! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddg Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 As a So.Cal. tech inspector, I agree with everything Dave said! I would however, like to see pics of the rollbar and it's mounting points before I pass judgement. Also, you do need to have reseviors or catch cans for fluid and no loose objects or wiring in the engine bay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3barXR Posted April 23, 2009 Author Share Posted April 23, 2009 Ok, the doors then aren't 'gutted', simply missing the panneling so that angle should be cool, however I think I may rivet in some sheet alum over them just in case a side impact were to hit one, I don't want to be showered with glass. I'll try very hard to get some pics up, will have to be later on tonight. Thanks everyone for thoughts and experience, this really helps. Just so you know, this isn't the safety equipment I planned in any way shape or form of running on track, it was simply to get it minimally driveable in my state legally on the road to get it dialed in. Now that that process is over, I'm turning my focus and $$ toward equipment to keep me alive, as it's worth every penny... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I'd lose the seat and get a fiberglass bucket and mount it to the floor and mount a back brace to the harness bar. that defeats the best feature of an FIA-approved style bucket (imo). Get one thats in date, don't use the brace, and let it flex in the impact to gently dissapate the forces instead of bracing it at a point where its not intended to be braced with what amounts to a spear. Or get a metal seat, as they're less expensive and brace the bejesus out of it - alot harder to punch through those than fiberglass to boot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddg Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I'd lose the seat and get a fiberglass bucket and mount it to the floor and mount a back brace to the harness bar. that defeats the best feature of an FIA-approved style bucket (imo). Get one thats in date, don't use the brace, and let it flex in the impact to gently dissapate the forces instead of bracing it at a point where its not intended to be braced with what amounts to a spear. Or get a metal seat, as they're less expensive and brace the bejesus out of it - alot harder to punch through those than fiberglass to boot. I have fears about the seat moving backwards (especialy if the seat mounts bend), that wil enable the harness to become slack and the driver free to move around in a sencondary impact. You can put a large plate on the seatback, spreading the load so the brace won't become a spear.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 there are tradeoffs in everything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingDog Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 there are tradeoffs in everything Illogical fears always trump logical solutions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 there are tradeoffs in everything Illogical fears always trump logical solutions. so you're saying is illogical to use the FIA seat in a manner its inteded (ie not braced)? walk through the paddock and look at all the half assed seatback braces and then tell me that fear is illogical compared to getting hit so hard your belts come off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted April 23, 2009 Members Share Posted April 23, 2009 there are tradeoffs in everything Illogical fears always trump logical solutions. so you're saying is illogical to use the FIA seat in a manner its inteded (ie not braced)? walk through the paddock and look at all the half assed seatback braces and then tell me that fear is illogical compared to getting hit so hard your belts come off At the end of the day, the only person who benefits or suffers from good/poor safety equipment is the guy/gal who is in the car when things go wrong. They have to be able to accept the fact that in a worse case scenerio, they can walk away or leave in a zip lock baggy. You can think what you want about safety and no matter how good you think it is, its not. My FIA MOMO race seat broke when I rolled nose over tail several times and is solely responsible for the head injury I recieved from that accident. Sometime stuff happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingDog Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 You can think what you want about safety and no matter how good you think it is, its not. My FIA MOMO race seat broke when I rolled nose over tail several times and is solely responsible for the head injury I recieved from that accident. Sometime stuff happens.Your seat caused you to roll nose over tail? I think the driver had more influence over the head injury than the seat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingDog Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 there are tradeoffs in everything Illogical fears always trump logical solutions. so you're saying is illogical to use the FIA seat in a manner its inteded (ie not braced)? walk through the paddock and look at all the half assed seatback braces and then tell me that fear is illogical compared to getting hit so hard your belts come off I meant that the fear of belt slack is illogical compared to using a safety device as intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I meant that the fear of belt slack is illogical compared to using a safety device as intended. ahh I follow now, "jab" withdrawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3barXR Posted April 23, 2009 Author Share Posted April 23, 2009 jeeze guys, I leave you all alone for 8 hours and you get into a fight, everyone calm down It's funny momo seats got brought up, I was eyeballing them as possible replacements but I doubt I'll be going end over end, that would be impressive, perhaps I should move along... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingDog Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 It's funny momo seats got brought up, I was eyeballing them as possible replacements but I doubt I'll be going end over end, that would be impressive, perhaps I should move along...I have Momo, Sparco, and Kirky seats. I would pick the Sparco seats every time. I would only give them up for a Racetech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted April 24, 2009 Members Share Posted April 24, 2009 (edited) You can think what you want about safety and no matter how good you think it is, its not. My FIA MOMO race seat broke when I rolled nose over tail several times and is solely responsible for the head injury I recieved from that accident. Sometime stuff happens.Your seat caused you to roll nose over tail? I think the driver had more influence over the head injury than the seat. Wow. The seat broke, while, rolling nose, over tail. And im the one with a dozen head injuries so I have an excuse. Had the seat not broken, which it did, while the car rolled, nose over tail, I would have likely not bounced off the cage with my helmet, which in turn cracked my helmet. (Yes, my head was indeed inside my helmet at the time of the incident.) Anymore smartass comments you feel the need to make? or are we done? (That job is already taken by Ken. FWIW) It's funny momo seats got brought up, I was eyeballing them as possible replacements but I doubt I'll be going end over end, that would be impressive, perhaps I should move along... It was a freak accident. left rear wheel bearing failed while in a fast right hander. What caused the seat to rip out of their bolt holes? Dunno. I dont think anyone test crashes cars/seats like that. I know I never expected to end up like that. Thats the beauty of safety gear. You never plan to use it, ever. Who does? Edited April 24, 2009 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddg Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 I'm guessing you didn't have a seatback brace??? Before I go out again, I'm changing my rear bearings (the same as your 16v 'rocco)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted April 24, 2009 Members Share Posted April 24, 2009 I'm guessing you didn't have a seatback brace???Before I go out again, I'm changing my rear bearings (the same as your 16v 'rocco)! I had a seat back brace. It didnt move. This was on my 8V Scirocco. But the bearings are the same P/N. Like I said, it was a freak thing. The bearings were new. (3 events old.) I suspect the spindles had something to do with it but thats another thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Wow. The seat broke, while, rolling nose, over tail. And im the one with a dozen head injuries so I have an excuse. that actually does explain a few things Anymore smartass comments you feel the need to make? or are we done? (That job is already taken by Ken. FWIW) I'd take offense to that if I wasn't good at it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingDog Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Anymore smartass comments you feel the need to make? or are we done? (That job is already taken by Ken. FWIW) I think I'm done for now. If I come up with any more, I'll let you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shawn M. Posted April 24, 2009 Members Share Posted April 24, 2009 I'd take offense to that if I wasn't good at it Naw, your job is secure. LOL!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3barXR Posted April 26, 2009 Author Share Posted April 26, 2009 Front seat mounting: Close up of one side of front seat mounting: Close up of outboard side of rear seat mounting (notice I notched the bar stock to clear the pan): Close up of inboard side of rear seat mounting: Roll bar view from rear, notice need to weld in crosspiece on pass side (it's not crooked, it's level to the car, just took the picture at an angle): Rollbar view from front (question, will the cross bar suffice as a seatback brace?) Opinions, thoughts? Realize this is not supposed to be my track setup, and 5 points attached to the rollbar are going in as soon as I get the crosspiece welded in, and the origional plan was to weld the supports together, not just rely on the big bolts with the huge washers underneath the car. I guess I'm really mostly concerned with the seat brace rule, the anti-submarine slot, and the attach bolts to the C channels being 'insufficient, if it is, then I may need to get larger L bar stock with large washers.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor57 Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 I'm pretty sure that you will be in a shitload of pain if you hit anything with the belts mounted to the floor like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3barXR Posted April 26, 2009 Author Share Posted April 26, 2009 I'm pretty sure that you will be in a shoo-shiddily-diddily of pain if you hit anything with the belts mounted to the floor like that. I am acutely aware of that, it was temporary, and for street only, which we only drive for tuning, now that that's done the car is sitting awaiting safety upgrades, as I have said before, disregard as I'm swapping out with 5 points attached to the cage... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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