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Balroks

HMS May Event - let the Bench racing begin

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TurboShortBus
Good point Mark, so What good is no cage like 90% of the field runs at 10/10ths, stock seat, stock belts, no hans, no firesuit once they hit the track?

My "what good is it?" refers to building a cage in the first place for a class that doesn't have a cage requirement, but taking the chance of building it below the standards for a class that you might move up into (you mentioned W2W), then possibly having to cut it out and start over with a new cage.

 

I agree that some cage is better than no cage, but you really should build it while taking your future plans and options into consideration in order to avoid doing it twice.

 

FYI, I suspect that I only run at 3/10. That's about as good as I get.

 

Mark

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kbrew8991
I stand corrected about having the driver and fuel in the car! But, if you start with a 3000 lb car (as raced, but without driver and fuel) and build a 1.5" x 0.120" cage, then load a 350 lb fatass driver into it and then fill the 20 gallon fuel cell, the full weight will be nearly 3500 lbs. That's acceptable? It is per the rules, but it seems a bit backwards to me.

 

Mark

 

well Mark I would speculate that the tubing sizes are set very conservative with that in mind

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Balroks

Good to know, ya i was being lazy with the CCR and figured Mark knew by heart!

 

Ya we went over this a lot in the cage thread here, but in summary I deff considered the whole picture a few hundred times before jumping for the size. I talked to AMS, Robi and a few of the teams that build and race for a living and they advised me to build the cage for what I was going to make the car weigh, not what it did weigh. This way I saved a few lbs, AND a few dollars on the materials rather then wasting it on an over-spec cage (even though it's already over-spec design wise). Also it's good to note that the smaller diameter just "fits" better. The weight numbers between 1.75x095 and 1.5x120 as listed in my cage thread (per CCR sub 3k rules), were a whole 12 lbs or something with the 1.5 being heavier. Again I knew i was going to get the car well under 3k by the time my finances/driving skill were ready to register for w2w - so I never considered 1.75x120.

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TurboShortBus
well Mark I would speculate that the tubing sizes are set very conservative with that in mind

Well, I can understand setting guidelines for tube sizes based on vehicle weight +/- 100 lbs or so, but +/- 500 lbs seems like a big variation to me (but apparently not to anybody else), since the next weight bracket down is 500 lbs away. You could have a 2500 lb car, build it with 1.5" x 0.095" tubing per the rules, then load it with 500+ lbs of tubby driver and fuel, and end up with a car that weighs 3000+ lbs with a relatively small cage. But, if the rules say it's OK as a minimum, then it's OK...

 

Mark

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Balroks

I hear ya Mark, I was also wondering why is it 1000lbs diff on the bracket before that? If I remember right these are grandfathered SCCA'ish specs that SCCA got from FIA, so who are we really debating? *shrug*. Also all cages are not created equal, you could have a 2 inch cage and it break upon impact and stab you in the neck, too many variances

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kbrew8991

then don't make the minimum standard your standard, note there is no maximum size

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TurboShortBus
then don't make the minimum standard your standard, note there is no maximum size

Definitely true...which is why I'm looking at different ways to bulletproof the driver's side footbox above and beyond what any NASA rules mention (not that they mention anything at all lol), thanks to a wrecked Bimmer that I saw at Road Atlanta last month.

 

Mark

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32EVOIX

OOPS, I hope I did not cause this argument. I don’t know much about the NASA technical stuff on cages only because I don’t have one (and yes, I know I should). What I do know in my simpleton mind is that before one starts a build they should know what class they are building for, and the rules for the class inside and out so when they get there they will be competitive. Too often people either buy a racecar or build a racecar and then try to fit it into a class, which is ass backwards to me. More often than not they quickly find out that they are not competative in the only class the car fits. From Matt’s resent explanation it seems to me that, he knows where he wants to go and what to do to get there, so I don’t see a problem with that. I do have one question though what exactly is the weight difference between the 1.5 and 1.75 did I read the thread correctly 12 lbs? If so I don’t understand why not go to the heaviest tube? 12 lbs to me is a good dump.

Edited by Guest

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32EVOIX

I do have some comments on the Evo though since I drive one. I cannot see a class that the car fits in that it is competitive, except NASA TTA/PTA with the new rules and that includes Koni challenge, scca, etc. With the new rules the cars can be built close to TTS hp/wt ratio and be extremely competitive, in their class, without stressing the motor. Moving up to TTS is useless, how is the car going to compete against Spankie's ZO6 with over 400 lbs of torque. Besides you have the same hp/wt limitation in TTS and you are close already but without the torque. You have all those points what are you going to do with them, put on some nice looking canards, some braces underneath, how about one of those big wings, (Oh boy we are going to get them now!) that is all. Because any other major motor modification such as a bigger turbo, including weight loss would knock you into TTU on the ratio side. Oh yes I can hear the Evo rumblings now from all those with the 500+ evo’s. Most of those cars are for straight line, on a road course they start to grenade (i.e. Sebastian’s Evo for those that know the car). It is no coincidence that most of the high horsepower road racing evo’s run in Time Attack and even those highly funded operations have a hard time to keep them running. Don’t get me wrong they are great cars but realistically you can only get so much power from a four banger and keep reliability. Lastly, enduros would be the last thing I run this type of car. Therefore, Manny takes the big prize here keeping it real, in PTA, once he gets the bugs out he will be the man. But then again I am a simpleton so what do I know.

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Balroks

Well, I have a feeling I can't convince you otherwise though I've tried. All I'll say is do some more research. I can't prove to you or not one thing or another will work, it's all about the right combo of parts, and of course the setup. Patience grasshopper!

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Balroks
then don't make the minimum standard your standard, note there is no maximum size

Definitely true...which is why I'm looking at different ways to bulletproof the driver's side footbox above and beyond what any NASA rules mention (not that they mention anything at all lol), thanks to a wrecked Bimmer that I saw at Road Atlanta last month.

 

Mark

 

I'd like to take a look at that, I had some ideas too.

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obzezzed350

Manny just wants to add Florida Region PTA champion to his sig...

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TurboShortBus
I'd like to take a look at that, I had some ideas too.

I don't have anything along the lines of CAD modeling or anything like that. I might lay something out in PVC just to get a general idea of it. I'll take pics if/when I do.

 

Mark

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32EVOIX
Well, I have a feeling I can't convince you otherwise though I've tried. All I'll say is do some more research. I can't prove to you or not one thing or another will work, it's all about the right combo of parts, and of course the setup. Patience grasshopper!

 

 

I will be waiting with breathless anticipation to see the final product.

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32EVOIX
Manny just wants to add Florida Region PTA champion to his sig...

 

 

Such abuse, I love this. Manny any comment back, you can’t let him get away with that, can you?

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Balroks
Manny just wants to add Florida Region PTA champion to his sig...

 

 

Such abuse, I love this. Manny any comment back, you can’t let him get away with that, can you?

 

Haha, Joseph kung fu no good! Manny know boost style kung fu, very strong! *insert bruce lee sound effects*

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kbrew8991

any of you FL bench racers going to Nationals? (registration opened today)

 

I'm trying to find someone to split one of the nicer garages with..

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TurboShortBus
any of you FL bench racers going to Nationals? (registration opened today)

Brother-man Scott will be there with his FFR. He bench races over on the FFR site. He already called the finish of the main race as 1-McKay 2-Kaiser 3-Switlyk. lol

 

Mark

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Balroks
any of you FL bench racers going to Nationals? (registration opened today)

 

I'm trying to find someone to split one of the nicer garages with..

 

Sponsors for all expenses? ....anyone? Brewer? *cough* I mean Bueller?

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kbrew8991

I can barley afford myself

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TurboShortBus

I don't see too many Utah road trips in my future...

 

Mark

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obzezzed350

What about bringing them to Sebring? RA?

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kbrew8991

RoadAtl has too big a reputation for eating cars, Sebring would probably get bounced for not being central enough.

 

Mid-O and Miller seem to be the two best options for all (1200mi to MidO from Houston, 1400 to Miller), even though it does screw you guys in FL a little either way. Maybe if you guys whine loud enough you could get it pulled a little farther south to VIR for a year or two

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Balroks
I can barley afford myself

 

I can't even afford myself Bah, RA only eats those that don't respect her

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32EVOIX
any of you FL bench racers going to Nationals? (registration opened today)

 

I'm trying to find someone to split one of the nicer garages with..

 

 

To be honest Jeff it doesn’t’ look good. Too much money and time, unfortunate would love to defend the title or actually try for a TTA title. Most of our BDR boys are gone Spec Miata racing in SCCA. We discussed the issue and we all agree that it is just not worth it. Now my sponsor seems bent on getting me there I don’t know if he can do it though with the economy being what it is, so if he pony’s up the money I will make the trip. If not I will cheer for you on the web.

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