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RULE PROPOSAL: Maximum Ballast

Should GTS adopt a maximum ballast rule?  

39 members have voted

  1. 1. Should GTS adopt a maximum ballast rule?

    • Yes
      15
    • No
      24


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Lemming

I am not in favor of adding more rules to GTS.

 

I am not currently using ballast in my car, have no ABS, and my car is 21 years old, just so you know where I am coming from.

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good hands

Jeff,

 

Can you add a poll to this thread ?

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ELEPHANT1

Funny, I've asked about ballast before because I knew I was going to have to ballast up to stay in GTS2....but with probably only ~185RWHP no way I was gonna try to run GTS3, even at ultralight weight. Still not sure how much ballast I'm adding but it's going to be 200lbs for sure. I do think there should be a ballast limit but nothing like 150lbs. At the very least if we consider it from a safety standpoint, which is the only reason I even care, as someone mentioned passengers are ballast basically bolted to 4pts on the floor. And frankly a 250lbs passenger is more dangerous than dead weight bolted to the floor which does not have potentially flailing extremities at a signficant distance from the mount pts.

 

If there is to be a limit I'd say upwards of 400 or 500lbs with strict guidelines as to proper mounting. I like the idea of a specified bolt for every 15 or 20lbs as well as a limit on individual sized chunks. Locations....I dunno about that other than maybe contained within the vehicle...IE no 100lb mass attached to the license plate blank. ; )

 

For those arguing about spirit.....I am all for sportsmanship, camaraderie, etc but our rules have created an open series where ultimately there will be large amounts of $$$ spent. It has been said by many for sometime that this is great until people start building high dollar dedicated cars. That is the way of it unfortunately. I don't know this can be dealt with as like many big changes this will upset a large portion of the existing racers no matter what. Those not spending the money will get upset if nothing changes and they can't afford to be competitive. Then there will be those who are upset because the can spend the money to build their cars to be where they want. Not an easy solution. At least with leaving it the way it is there is stability, one big thing that every series argues about when it comes to rules. Good luck there.

 

Cheers.

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Trackrocket

Maybe the Moderators can add a poll to the top of this post?

 

Jack, you're saying you're in favor of a ballast limit like 400-500lbs?? WOW!!

 

OK, that's what this post is for, to get opinions about a possible Maximum Ballast rule.

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ELEPHANT1
Maybe the Moderators can add a poll to the top of this post?

 

Jack, you're saying you're in favor of a ballast limit like 400-500lbs?? WOW!!

 

OK, that's what this post is for, to get opinions about a possible Maximum Ballast rule.

 

I guess to be clear, IF there is a ballast rule I'd prefer to see it in the neighborhood of 4-500lbs vs 150 or so. Again with this being based on very strict mounting/securing guidelines. I personally don't care if someone wants to take their 250RWHP car and add 1000lbs of ballast to run in GTS2. However, I think that will be difficult to secure properly unless it's distributed all over the car. And I guess I don't care about that either necessarily but seems some common sense should come into play. Point being, if there is a limit I think it should be upwards of where probably 90% of those ballasting up to run a lower class will call it quits anyway...thus is sort of becomes a nonfactor rule. My guess is that non one is running more than 300lbs of ballast....but that is purely opinion with no basis in fact at all.

 

Cheers.

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ianacole
Maybe the Moderators can add a poll to the top of this post?

 

Poll added

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JSirota
Maybe the Moderators can add a poll to the top of this post?

 

Poll added

I voted no.

 

Safety rules should be spec'ed by NASA, not by the individual classes.

 

Competitive rules should be spec'ed by the classes, not NASA.

 

The only reason to have a ballast limit is for safety. Therefore it's not appropriate for GTS to own that rule. The rule should be consistent across ALL classes. How much ballast to allow, how to mount it, etc.

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ELEPHANT1

Well I voted yes but again, that opinion is based on 4-500lbs limit with very strict mounting guidelines. I think location should be within the vehicle body but otherwise not much in the way of restrictions there. Moreso based on safety than for preventing people from ballasting up to run a lower class.

 

Cheers.

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ELEPHANT1
I voted no.

 

Safety rules should be spec'ed by NASA, not by the individual classes.

 

Competitive rules should be spec'ed by the classes, not NASA.

 

The only reason to have a ballast limit is for safety. Therefore it's not appropriate for GTS to own that rule. The rule should be consistent across ALL classes. How much ballast to allow, how to mount it, etc.

 

Generally I agree with this. However, if we limit ballast to something like 100 or 150lbs in GTS then it is not purely a safety issue, it becomes a competition issue. That limits who can run in what class. Certainly even with a 500lbs ballast limit that same argument can be made. However, again, covering the large majority, if not all, racers in this case is much different than limiting many of those same competitors.

 

Sort of a gray/crossover area to me. In fact, IIRC, as this has been discussed previously I think the word "ballast" is no where to be found in any of the NASA rules sets...CCR or class/series specific. Perhaps I am misremembering on this......

 

Cheers.

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Werkstatt

150 # sounds good.

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ELEPHANT1
A guy is running 300+ lbs and another guy is running 400 lbs.

 

If you need weight and restrictor plates you are in the wrong class.

 

I absolutely disagree with this statement. I wanted my car stripped out totally and reassembled with only necessary parts. I removed the entire stock wiring harness and am only using the engine harness, ABS harness, and a few other necessary wires. I have installed an aftermarket steering column, aftermarket pedals, no stock instrumentation, etc. I more or less started with a bare chassis which, when I bought it and originally raced it, was a stock class car with nearly a full interior.

 

With my stock class engine, which is limited to a chip, air filter, and a couple other meager mods I have only 169RWHP but now my car weighs downwards of 2250lbs. However, as part of my grand weight reduction (to help save on tires and brakes) I have modified the engine intake a fair bit and it will add some HP...not sure how much yet, hopefully find out next week. But I expect it to be 10+ RWHP, probably 15. So If I do get up to 185ish that requires me to weigh 2683. With driver/fuel and no ballast I'm only going to be at ~2475. So with my nearly stock engine (I have stock cams, stock injectors, stock bottom end, etc, intake is the only change) I'm in the wrong class because I need to run ~200lbs of ballast to stay in GTS2?

 

No, I chose to modify my chassis/suspension/etc vs spending a ton of money on engine mods, why should I be penalized for that? The classes are power to weight so the goal is to be at the top of that ratio period. It would be ridiculous for me to try and run GTS3 at 2460lbs with 185 HP (or even 200 IMO), no way I'm gonna beat cars that have 60hp on me. Oh, and by way of GTS3 that means I only have to weigh 2035 so I either have to run super heavy in 3 or ballast in order stay in 2, prolly not gonna be able to remove another 400lbs.

 

All one needs to do is look at the top few guys in the class and see what their HP numbers are. My somewhat educated guess (and generalization) is that if you're not within about 10% of their HP (assuming they are consistently the ones to beat) you're not going to beat them. Slick tires and a few other things simply are not going to make up for that much HP difference. At the top of these classe are the top drivers, ballast is not going to change that and they are not only going to continue to get better they will continue to develop their cars as necessary.

 

Cheers.

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Eric W.
Maybe the Moderators can add a poll to the top of this post?

 

Poll added

I voted no.

 

Safety rules should be spec'ed by NASA, not by the individual classes.

 

Competitive rules should be spec'ed by the classes, not NASA..

 

Actually for quite a few classes this is the case. PT, HC, AI, AIX, and CMC all have their own respective ballast rules.

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streak
A guy is running 300+ lbs and another guy is running 400 lbs.

 

If you need weight and restrictor plates you are in the wrong class.

 

I absolutely disagree with this statement. I wanted my car stripped out totally and reassembled with only necessary parts. I removed the entire stock wiring harness and am only using the engine harness, ABS harness, and a few other necessary wires. I have installed an aftermarket steering column, aftermarket pedals, no stock instrumentation, etc. I more or less started with a bare chassis which, when I bought it and originally raced it, was a stock class car with nearly a full interior.

 

With my stock class engine, which is limited to a chip, air filter, and a couple other meager mods I have only 169RWHP but now my car weighs downwards of 2250lbs. However, as part of my grand weight reduction (to help save on tires and brakes) I have modified the engine intake a fair bit and it will add some HP...not sure how much yet, hopefully find out next week. But I expect it to be 10+ RWHP, probably 15. So If I do get up to 185ish that requires me to weigh 2683. With driver/fuel and no ballast I'm only going to be at ~2475. So with my nearly stock engine (I have stock cams, stock injectors, stock bottom end, etc, intake is the only change) I'm in the wrong class because I need to run ~200lbs of ballast to stay in GTS2?

 

No, I chose to modify my chassis/suspension/etc vs spending a ton of money on engine mods, why should I be penalized for that? The classes are power to weight so the goal is to be at the top of that ratio period. It would be ridiculous for me to try and run GTS3 at 2460lbs with 185 HP (or even 200 IMO), no way I'm gonna beat cars that have 60hp on me. Oh, and by way of GTS3 that means I only have to weigh 2035 so I either have to run super heavy in 3 or ballast in order stay in 2, prolly not gonna be able to remove another 400lbs.

 

Soooooo you took all the weight out only to put it all back in? I get you are building a race car but if your race car that you stripped out should be in GTS3 then keep it there. I agree that your car should be in GTS2 however. GTS2 is the appropriate class for your particular car with those hp numbers and putting back in the weight you took out of a stock vehicle. Now if you add 250 more lbs to run in GTS1 then I disagree with that. I'm not saying yours is egregious but others are running 400lbs and restrictors to make a class. Just stay in the other class. Seems like a lot of work and money. Just stay where the numbers tell you.

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sstecker

if i did my math right..

 

150lbs is not enough to even optimize weight/hp for 1/2 of a GTS range

 

you have a GTS3 car with 2400lbs/188hp (right in middle of range)

 

the car either needs to gain 326lbs to be at top of GTS2, lose 322lbs or add 30hp/tq to be at top of GTS3

 

a middle GTS2 car with 188hp would need 375lbs to move to top of GTS1

 

that gutted 2400lb car with everything put back in comes in GTS3 at 3200lbs (bmw e36 curb weight) and 290hp without any ballast.

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Trackrocket

WHY are the specifics of "how to prepare a car for the top of a GTS class" being discussed so much in detail? It's simple, we build our car for a class, there were factory items I did not remove from my car for 3 years so I could reasonably stay in GTS2 without running over 100lbs ballast, plain and simple.

 

I didn't intend for a discussion about a possible maximum ballast rule to get to the point where people are calling out fellow competitors whether it's by their name or vehicle, I did not intend for this to become an in-depth discussion about "well My car won't fit in this or that because of this..." either.

 

Sorry, don't mean to sound like I'm complaining/bitching/moaning but can we keep it simple?? ...a discussion of whether you think a maximum ballast rule should be adopted??

 

There are several reasons to discuss the need for this:

 

1-Safety - as some are not conforming to the NASA CCRs with regards to mounting ballast

 

2-the "Spirit" of the GTS ruleset

 

3-the "Ridiculousness Factor" (for lack of a better phrase) as it is known some are stacking 400lbs of ballast to run in a lower class

 

4-to simply keep a car where it's perceived they "naturally" belong in the appropriate class - this can be argued all night/day, but it IS a factor in this discussion

 

#1 and #2 seem to the be brunt of this consideration, with #3 being discussed in "social circles" and some online bantor...#4 is a reasonable consideration but again, can and will be argued to death.

 

There's a poll, place your vote and cite your opinion of WHY, you don't even have to cite your reasons to vote in the poll...you can remain anonymous.

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good hands
if i did my math right..

 

150lbs is not enough to even optimize weight/hp for 1/2 of a GTS range

 

you have a GTS3 car with 2400lbs/188hp (right in middle of range)

 

the car either needs to gain 326lbs to be at top of GTS2, lose 322lbs or add 30hp/tq to be at top of GTS3

 

a middle GTS2 car with 188hp would need 375lbs to move to top of GTS1

 

that gutted 2400lb car with everything put back in comes in GTS3 at 3200lbs (bmw e36 curb weight) and 290hp without any ballast.

 

I guess that is the point of this thread.

Should someone put 400lbs in his car to move

down a class ? I say no. On the average GTS

car that is nearly 15% of the total weight of the car .

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ELEPHANT1
I guess that is the point of this thread.

Should someone put 400lbs in his car to move

down a class ? I say no. On the average GTS

car that is nearly 15% of the total weight of the car .

 

Fair enough and understood. Personally, I don't really care if someone wants to add 400lbs to move down a class. At some point there is safety which becomes the mitigating factor IMO. But I don't necessarily think 400lbs is it. Part of the attraction of GTS to me is being able to do what I want to the car and still pretty much put it where I want.

 

But neither here nor there, it's a good discussion nonetheless. Cheers.

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ELEPHANT1
if i did my math right..

 

150lbs is not enough to even optimize weight/hp for 1/2 of a GTS range

 

you have a GTS3 car with 2400lbs/188hp (right in middle of range)

 

the car either needs to gain 326lbs to be at top of GTS2, lose 322lbs or add 30hp/tq to be at top of GTS3

 

a middle GTS2 car with 188hp would need 375lbs to move to top of GTS1

 

that gutted 2400lb car with everything put back in comes in GTS3 at 3200lbs (bmw e36 curb weight) and 290hp without any ballast.

 

Good points. That's part of the reason I think it can be a high number but still within reason of what most people are willing to do anyway. Safety should be the driving factor, not whether or not it affects competitiveness. I don't think we want to go down that road in this series.

 

Cheers.

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sstecker

ill be going for comp license in july at VIR. i voted no. there should be specific safety regulations as to max size of individual ballast plates (lbs/plate) and bolts required.

 

are the ballasted cars heavier than curb weight? if not, then how will a ballast rule slow them down on the straights if all they have to do is put the interior/gutted pieces back in?

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ELEPHANT1
ill be going for comp license in july at VIR. i voted no. there should be specific safety regulations as to max size of individual ballast plates (lbs/plate) and bolts required.

 

are the ballasted cars heavier than curb weight? if not, then how will a ballast rule slow them down on the straights if all they have to do is put the interior/gutted pieces back in?

 

Agreed that there should be minimum safety requirements for proper mounting of ballast whether the ballast is limited or not. That is not hard to do though, it can be copied from many different series within NASA or other series outside NASA so it doesn't need to be general within the CCR. Also, in some classes, such as GTS, ballast is a competition factor so while 100lbs may mean nothing in a minimum weight class where everyone runs the same weight. But in GTS, as we have been discussing, it can be used to create a competitive edge....which I think is within the spirit of the rules.

 

As for the ballasted cars....I don't know what the cars weigh nor even which cars specifically we're talking about. As for me, I expect to have to weigh about 2700, maybe a bit over in race weight w/driver. That I believe is ~100lbs or so below published curb weight. And my cage weighs ~190lbs.

 

Cheers.

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Michael Dayton

I voted yes for the safety factor. I have no idea what the max should be tho...for someone else to figure out.

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Damon in STL

I voted no. And, I would personally be happy to help any of my competitors properly and safely install their ballast. The key is to get it as high and as close to the bumpers as possible.

 

Damon in STL

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Werkstatt

Jeff,

Good thread, this now gives me the added bonus of staying up all night at the Tavern drinking beer to get my weight up. In between beers we can do Patron shots, care to join me? Nasa racing Rocks!

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Trackrocket
Jeff,

Good thread, this now gives me the added bonus of staying up all night at the Tavern drinking beer to get my weight up. In between beers we can do Patron shots, care to join me? Nasa racing Rocks!

 

WHO DIS??

 

Make sure you put in your vote!

 

FWIW, I think it's a good thread as well...opens up discussion with regards to something I've thought about for awhile. A bunch of us discussed it up at Summit Point last weekend and there were differing opinions but most were in favor of a ~150lb limit.

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scottbm3

I voted no. I'm not so concerned about the amount as I would be how it's attached to the car for safety purposes. Also ballast can be used as a set-up tool. I wouldn't want someone to have to compromise set-up because they are at or near the limit of allowed ballast.

 

 

-Scott B.

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