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RULE PROPOSAL: Maximum Ballast

Should GTS adopt a maximum ballast rule?  

39 members have voted

  1. 1. Should GTS adopt a maximum ballast rule?

    • Yes
      15
    • No
      24


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JSirota
I may very well be misguided but I also hear a lot of scuttlebutt regarding a certain car trying to compete in a certain class that everyone thinks is inappropriate. Me included. Using no names I just wonder why that particular situation is not in the spirit of GTS but the very same situation with regard to what I observed in GTS2 is?

Well, I don't know the car or driver, I know nothing about it.

 

But in my opinion, the only thing that would be inappropriate is if this particular individual is cheating (isn't properly disclosing how much horsepower he has, since there really isn't any other way to cheat in GTS). But again in my opinion, there's nothing inappropriate about ballasting your car up to race in a slower class. As long as the result meets the power-to-weight criteria for that class, have at it.

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Jim Child
I may very well be misguided but I also hear a lot of scuttlebutt regarding a certain car trying to compete in a certain class that everyone thinks is inappropriate.

 

I seriously doubt "everyone" thinks its inappropriate unless there is a strong suspicion that the car in question is cheating by underreporting HP. I know that's the only way I would find it inappropriate.

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Michael Dayton

I may very well be misguided but I also hear a lot of scuttlebutt regarding a certain car trying to compete in a certain class that everyone thinks is inappropriate. Me included. Using no names I just wonder why that particular situation is not in the spirit of GTS but the very same situation with regard to what I observed in GTS2 is?

 

Hunt - The GTS3 car/driver in question is suspected of noncompliance period...and this isn't the first time from what I understand. So the spirit issue isn't the issue although that's the terminology being used.

 

As for Mid-Ohio, Bimmers vs P-cars and GTS2, I finished 5th in the 2007 Nasa Nationals (my rookie season) and there's no doubt in my mind that my car was capable of competing for the title. I carried no ballast. The car was not fully prepped, as I'm sure most of the field was not fully prepped either, but I was near the max hp/wgt. However, I was no where near Jim, Jeff and Carl as drivers...home track had very little if anything to do with it. car/driver/luck and not necessarily in that order!

 

Also, learning to brake without abs will serve you well in the future. I think (not much experience without abs for me) it would be easier to go from no abs to abs vs abs to no abs. But like anything else practice makes perfect!

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FlyingDog
Also, learning to brake without abs will serve you well in the future. I think (not much experience without abs for me) it would be easier to go from no abs to abs vs abs to no abs. But like anything else practice makes perfect!
I learned to drive with ABS and drove with it for 10 years on the street. The second time I drove on track I disabled it. Unless you have a system designed for track use, I think it's a disadvantage. The nice thing about GTS is that I can think that and disable mine while somebody else can think the opposite and add ABS to their car. It just throws in more variables to make the racing more interesting.

 

 

Back to the original subject of ballast...

What is ballast? Is it lead bolted to the floor? More gas in the fuel tank? Building a cage out of 1.75x.120 mild instead of 1.75x.095 CrMo? Extra cage tubes? Dual instead of single exhaust? Added insulation? If you remove weight, can you add it back elsewhere and does that effect your ballast limit?

 

On top of the fact that I don't think a ballast limit is within the spirit of the rules, I think it's impossible to regulate. When I roll up in a 928, how is Doug (a BMW guy) supposed to know what my car should weigh and where the weight should be? Are the motorcycle guys in tech supposed to know when we're impounded?

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Damon in STL

Edit: Hmmm....posted to the wrong thread. Do'h

 

Damon in STL

Edited by Guest

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streak

I may very well be misguided but I also hear a lot of scuttlebutt regarding a certain car trying to compete in a certain class that everyone thinks is inappropriate. Me included. Using no names I just wonder why that particular situation is not in the spirit of GTS but the very same situation with regard to what I observed in GTS2 is?

 

Hunt - The GTS3 car/driver in question is suspected of noncompliance period...and this isn't the first time from what I understand. So the spirit issue isn't the issue although that's the terminology being used.

 

As for Mid-Ohio, Bimmers vs P-cars and GTS2, I finished 5th in the 2007 Nasa Nationals (my rookie season) and there's no doubt in my mind that my car was capable of competing for the title. I carried no ballast. The car was not fully prepped, as I'm sure most of the field was not fully prepped either, but I was near the max hp/wgt. However, I was no where near Jim, Jeff and Carl as drivers...home track had very little if anything to do with it. car/driver/luck and not necessarily in that order!

 

Also, learning to brake without abs will serve you well in the future. I think (not much experience without abs for me) it would be easier to go from no abs to abs vs abs to no abs. But like anything else practice makes perfect!

 

 

Not to hear him tell it. As far as his story goes he's in compliance and no one can handle the competition they deem unfair. I don't know the guy or the car but there are two perspectives to everything.

 

For the record, I know nothing of MO and those comments didn't come from me.

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good hands

So any car in GTS can run any class in GTS ? I guess that is the current rules. As long as you ballast it to fit the profile of a particular class it's within the rules. So a Porsche cup car can run GT2 as long as there is 1180lbs of ballast ? I guess you can see why Jeff started this thread. How much ballast is too much ? I am hearing from most people that ballast makes no diffference. There is no such thing as too much. Just work wthin the GTS rules. I personally disagree with this philosophy but will certainly work within the rules as I have enjoyed my weekends with NASA .

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Michael Dayton

I may very well be misguided but I also hear a lot of scuttlebutt regarding a certain car trying to compete in a certain class that everyone thinks is inappropriate. Me included. Using no names I just wonder why that particular situation is not in the spirit of GTS but the very same situation with regard to what I observed in GTS2 is?

 

Hunt - The GTS3 car/driver in question is suspected of noncompliance period...and this isn't the first time from what I understand. So the spirit issue isn't the issue although that's the terminology being used.

 

As for Mid-Ohio, Bimmers vs P-cars and GTS2, I finished 5th in the 2007 Nasa Nationals (my rookie season) and there's no doubt in my mind that my car was capable of competing for the title. I carried no ballast. The car was not fully prepped, as I'm sure most of the field was not fully prepped either, but I was near the max hp/wgt. However, I was no where near Jim, Jeff and Carl as drivers...home track had very little if anything to do with it. car/driver/luck and not necessarily in that order!

 

Also, learning to brake without abs will serve you well in the future. I think (not much experience without abs for me) it would be easier to go from no abs to abs vs abs to no abs. But like anything else practice makes perfect!

 

 

Not to hear him tell it. As far as his story goes he's in compliance and no one can handle the competition they deem unfair. I don't know the guy or the car but there are two perspectives to everything.

 

For the record, I know nothing of MO and those comments didn't come from me.

 

Maybe so, but why did he not race at SP? To be fair, maybe something broke...I dunno but I do know he came off track early during the qualifying session and did not go to impound and didn't race...so maybe not a big deal...but it was made very clear that dyno's and scales were going to be used...I don't have a dog in this fight so I'll stop now.

 

Anyway, my MO/bimmer/p-car comparison was just an example of differing prepped cars are quite capable in the right hands.

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Michael Dayton
So any car in GTS can run any class in GTS ? I guess that is the current rules. As long as you ballast it to fit the profile of a particular class it's within the rules. So a Porsche cup car can run GT2 as long as there is 1180lbs of ballast ? I guess you can see why Jeff started this thread. How much ballast is too much ? I am hearing from most people that ballast makes no diffference. There is no such thing as too much. Just work wthin the GTS rules. I personally disagree with this philosophy but will certainly work within the rules as I have enjoyed my weekends with NASA .

 

 

Strictly talking about "ballast" (not interior, extra caging, etc), I think the most that people are doing is 200-400# (could be wrong). I may be naive but how can you safely strap 500-600#+ to an already stripped car? I know your 1180# example is ficicious (sp) but I don't think folks are going much above the 200-400# mark.

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good hands
So any car in GTS can run any class in GTS ? I guess that is the current rules. As long as you ballast it to fit the profile of a particular class it's within the rules. So a Porsche cup car can run GT2 as long as there is 1180lbs of ballast ? I guess you can see why Jeff started this thread. How much ballast is too much ? I am hearing from most people that ballast makes no diffference. There is no such thing as too much. Just work wthin the GTS rules. I personally disagree with this philosophy but will certainly work within the rules as I have enjoyed my weekends with NASA .

 

 

Strictly talking about "ballast" (not interior, extra caging, etc), I think the most that people are doing is 200-400# (could be wrong). I may be naive but how can you safely strap 500-600#+ to an already stripped car? I know your 1180# example is ficicious (sp) but I don't think folks are going much above the 200-400# mark.

 

 

so you agree that there is a number ?

a number of maximum ballast ?

what this thread was all about ?

 

just asking ?

 

you seem to think 1180 is a ridiculous number. some think 400 is ridiculous. it's all a matter of opinion i guess.

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RSCoupe

My opinion is; it's a hp/wt race group, simple. Keep it that way. Saying a car "belongs" in a certain class because of what it is, is ridiculous to me.

As long as the ballast is installed safely, I'm fine with it whatever amount someone wants to add.

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Michael Dayton

 

so you agree that there is a number ?

a number of maximum ballast ?

what this thread was all about ?

 

just asking ?

 

you seem to think 1180 is a ridiculous number. some think 400 is ridiculous. it's all a matter of opinion i guess.

 

It's not the ballast! Put 1180 in your GT3 cup car to make GTS2 and I will still be competitive with our BMW.

 

Actually, I stated earlier that BMW CCA uses 150# (I think) and I voted yes there should be a max due to the safety factor ONLY. Now I'm wavering on the yes vote. As long as it's secured safely I don't care how much cuz I know a well prepared car combined with a good driver is going to be fast and competitive with or without ballast.

 

The car I was driving at SP the other weekend had no significant advantage over you, Hunt and others assuming your cars were properly set up. Yes it had ABS but many will agrue it's not an advantage (in the dry). Our car wasn't "supposed" to be a GTS3 car ballasted down to 2...it makes less than 200hp and it was competitive with the other higher hp and heavily ballasted BMWs. For the record I don't know if the other BMWs were that much higher HP and/or heavily ballasted I'm only going by what's been said in this thread.

 

With the proper car setup, ample seat time and some driver coaching you shouldn't have any problem being competitive with your car. Find someone who knows your car very well and who can drive it damn fast...and learn from them!

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FlyingDog
So any car in GTS can run any class in GTS ? I guess that is the current rules. As long as you ballast it to fit the profile of a particular class it's within the rules. So a Porsche cup car can run GT2 as long as there is 1180lbs of ballast ? I guess you can see why Jeff started this thread. How much ballast is too much ? I am hearing from most people that ballast makes no diffference. There is no such thing as too much. Just work wthin the GTS rules. I personally disagree with this philosophy but will certainly work within the rules as I have enjoyed my weekends with NASA .
I have 4 stock engines. Without changing the weight of the car, I can go from GTS2 to GTS4 by just choosing which engine I install. With a little work, I could get to GTS5 pwr/weight levels. Why does it make a difference whether I change classes by increasing or decreasing HP versus changing classes by adding or subtracting weight? As long as it's safely attached, I don't see a difference.

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Bryancohnracing

The attraction to GTS for many including myself is that it is one of the last remaining series/classes in sports car racing where there are only safety rules and a simple formula for classing, HP/Wt.

 

For those that have raced with other sanctioning bodies, classes, professional series, etc, you know how inviting and easy it is to race in GTS. I think that is the key: EASY.

 

No specified parts that you have to pay over retail for (since the sanctioning body made a deal with the supplier). I've lived that life and there is nothing quite a satisfying as paying twice the retail price for a set of tires (as one example) or twice retail for a set of brake pads (because you have to run the ones with OUR stamp on it). Yep, that makes for happy drivers.

 

Having built many different racecars over the years, from SCCA Showroom Stock cars, to Can Am and Indy cars (in my youth, ok?), to the various Formula cars, GTS is just plain EASY.

 

GTS should have a rule about how much ballast can be attached in what manner. For example, 100 pound plate maximum(per piece of ballast) held in by two 3/8 grade 5 bolts. Need to add 400 pounds? Fine, you'll need four 100 pound plates and eight 3/8 bolts.

 

As long as the ballast is safely installed, get to work on installing that 1100 pounds of Tungsten into your GT3 Cup car!!!

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