Jump to content
ianacole

Spirit of GTS (From: RULE PROPOSAL: Maximum Ballast)

Recommended Posts

ianacole
Again, the spirit of the rules . . .

 

So, this has been bantied about quite a bit in this thread, without any context. I'm sure that competitors each have a different perception of what this means. I'd like to hear what others think the spirit of the rules is. Another thread, or is this an appropriate location to have this discussion?

 

Ian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Trackrocket

Another thread please...it has already gotten too personal with specifying certain cars in a negative sense, I'd like to see that diminish a bit if possible.

 

AS for the "spirit of the rules" I would like to see that thread started elsewhere and will gladly participate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ianacole

Split from original topic...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ELEPHANT1

As for spirit of the rules....I posted in the ballast thread a bit but I'll do so again.

 

I guess what needs to be defined is what the spirit is. Comaraderie? Sportsmanship? Competition? Yeah, certainly all of those. Is it about limiting what people can do or classing such that a larger number of people can have the opportunity to be competitive affordably? That's not how the rules are written. Many naysayers of this series have long since argued that with an open rules format someday it will simply be too expensive for most racers to compete or be interested in competing in. Obviously GTS3 is going to be the first class for that to happen as more and more people build dedicated cars. GTS2 will likely be next. GTS4 and 5 are already expensive classes simply because of where else a lot of the cars come from, what they are to begin with, etc. GTS2 and 3 are the classes which have initially attracted a lot of cross over cars. But more people are building dedicated cars...that naturally drives cost up as competition goes up.

 

Rules stability is always a huge thing in any series. So our rules have been predictable and pretty much stable for a long time.....do we really want to change that? I can't even begin to imagine how to do it. No matter what there will be plenty of people upset one way or another. I'm certainly curious to hear peoples ideas on how to do it, I don't really have any as I'm very attracted to the idea of literally not worrying about pretty much anything. And I'm not one who will be able to maintain a level of competitiveness if the costs go way up....but I knew that coming in and that's what I accepted. I also knew someday it would probably make me uncompetitive.

 

Cheers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
streak

I am new to the series. My first GTS race was last November so I come to the series with fresh eyes. I recall pouring over my car to get it race ready and ensuring I was in the right class. Being new I didn't want to screw up, mess up my weekend or someone else's.

 

So my approach to GTS 2 was that the cars would be similar. I didn't expect to run against 1500# spec somethings and I didn't expect to run against 400 hp monsters. I expected to run against cars with similar power to mine. Not as similar as PCA Club Racing but a big part of the pull to Nasa for me is to play with other cars, not all Porsches all the time.

 

Similar power and similar capabilities for each class is how I interpret the rules. If Car A is not similar and has different capabilities then it would be in one of the other four classes provided by the sanctioning body. Makes sense yes?

 

The way I interpret the spirit of the rules does not include more powerful more capable cars "handicapping" themselves to compete at a lower level. That's why there is GTS1 through 5.

 

That may be naive but at some point the whole GTS thing will be bastardized to the point that the fields will diminish as people find other places to fit in in the amateur racing world.

 

When they made the power to weight rules did they expect that someone would go to extraordinary lengths to bump a class?

 

JMHO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JSirota
I expected to run against cars with similar power to mine.

 

Not sure why.

 

You should have expected to run against cars that would have similar lap time potential, not necessarily similar horsepower. They have similar HP/WT ratios. The rules don't require (or even imply) that they would have similar power.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ELEPHANT1
I expected to run against cars with similar power to mine.

 

Not sure why.

 

You should have expected to run against cars that would have similar lap time potential, not necessarily similar horsepower. They have similar HP/WT ratios. The rules don't require (or even imply) that they would have similar power.

 

This is pretty much how I always thought of it. Weight/HP......pick where you think you fit best. If you want to run 200hp in GTS5 and weigh nothing then go for it. Or vice versa. I guess I'm not terribly surprised to hear about people adding a lot of weight to run a lower class. What the heck. I also very much expected to see people in some cases running restrictor plates.

 

I can't wait to run a (hopefully) full schedule this year amongst all the different makes, classes, and people. Should be fun!

 

Cheers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Michael Dayton

I don't quite understand why it's not within the spirit of the rules to ballast a car or tune/detune/restrict the motor to fit into the class you want...We all pick the car we want to race and choose how much we can afford (or not afford) to spend on preparation. Depends on your goals and objectives...do you want to race or do you want to be competitive...I'm competitive and fullfill that through racing plus I really like racing...as a sports guy growing up (basketball, baseball, etc) I didn't do much with cars or racing until a few years ago. It's a new challenge that I completely enjoy and want to excel and improve upon in all ways possible....from car preparation to driver preparation.

 

I think the GTS format allows you to continually prepare your car as you improve without much restriction. Also gives you some flexiblity to pick and choose...do I want to run the ultra competitive and deep GTS3 class or the 2 car GTS4 field. No HOO HOO contingency for the 2 car GTS4 class unless you can beat Schwarz and he's pretty tough (car and driver). (I think they pay 1 tire for less than 5 competitors) Or, as some have mentioned, do you ballast up/detune/restrict the GTS3 car and drop to GTS2 where there is less competition. GTS2 has had good participation and paid us nicely with 8-10 HOO HOOs this year...of course our car is designed (or belongs as some have mentioned) in GTS2. And I should've won the Sunday race but I (the driver not the car) blew it...had a good start and a decent lead and overdrove a few turns especially T10 in lap 2 or 3 and allowed Ted to catch up and pass...probably would have passed him back in traffic but a FCY cut the race short...but shoulda coulda woulda doesn't mean squat..he won it fair and square. I was the recipient of someone else's mistakes in Saturdays race and got the win...

 

So, to recap, we as racers ultimately decide which cars and which class based on the existing ruleset. Just because you're not competitive doesn't mean the rules should be changed...in fact, just the opposite, you should change either the car, the driver or the class to make yourself competitive within the rules and to meet your goals and objectives. In my limited experience it is the driver that makes the biggest difference early in our racing careers. Once a racer gains some experience then it's 1/3 driver, 1/3 car and 1/3 luck or something like that!! But anyway, there's my 2 cents.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ELEPHANT1
So, to recap, we as racers ultimately decide which cars and which class based on the existing ruleset. Just because you're not competitive doesn't mean the rules should be changed...in fact, just the opposite, you should change either the car, the driver or the class to make yourself competitive within the rules and to meet your goals and objectives. In my limited experience it is the driver that makes the biggest difference early in our racing careers. Once a racer gains some experience then it's 1/3 driver, 1/3 car and 1/3 luck or something like that!! But anyway, there's my 2 cents.

 

Well said. And I think that's one of the nice things about GTS, you can do that easier than with many other series where classes are determined by preparation level, engine type/size, chassis, etc. That was the main attraction to GTS for me, a place for me to do some of the things I want to with my car and still have a chance at being competitive.

 

Cheers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
streak
I expected to run against cars with similar power to mine.

 

Not sure why.

 

You should have expected to run against cars that would have similar lap time potential, not necessarily similar horsepower. They have similar HP/WT ratios. The rules don't require (or even imply) that they would have similar power.

 

Read the rest of my post. I pretty clearly state that I expect cars of similar capability to be classed together which is what you are saying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
streak

This may show up twice, dunno what happened the first time.

 

PCA doesn't allow you to move down a class. They only allow you to move up. The only exception maybe if you backdate a car. I do not know how that works. For example I run E Stock. If I put on bigger brakes or some other non-stock mod I then run E Prepared or F. The rules do not allow the option of running in a lower class where there might be less competition.

 

PS- Why does Michael Dayton's signature class his car as GTS 3? I knew it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Michael Dayton
This may show up twice, dunno what happened the first time.

 

PCA doesn't allow you to move down a class. They only allow you to move up. The only exception maybe if you backdate a car. I do not know how that works. For example I run E Stock. If I put on bigger brakes or some other non-stock mod I then run E Prepared or F. The rules do not allow the option of running in a lower class where there might be less competition.

 

PS- Why does Michael Dayton's signature class his car as GTS 3? I knew it!

 

shhh don't tell anyone...Ha...yeah I've been meaning to change that so it's changed...

 

I had the same problem with BMW CCA/GTS last year. I couldn't take anymore weight out for IP rules and I was pretty much in the middle of GTS2 and 3...too much ballast required to get to 2 and too much $$ for the HP (although the HP would have helped in both BMW CCA and GTS). I did consider running a restrictor but GTS2 fields were very low last year. I was still competitive but only for 2nd or 3rd. I couldn't touch Wonger or Doug unless they broke or made a mistake. I'll admit it was very frustrating at times but it also made me a much better driver.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
good hands

So, to recap, we as racers ultimately decide which cars and which class based on the existing ruleset. Just because you're not competitive doesn't mean the rules should be changed...in fact, just the opposite, you should change either the car, the driver or the class to make yourself competitive within the rules and to meet your goals and objectives. In my limited experience it is the driver that makes the biggest difference early in our racing careers. Once a racer gains some experience then it's 1/3 driver, 1/3 car and 1/3 luck or something like that!! But anyway, there's my 2 cents.

 

 

Since the beginning of racing the quest has been to make your car faster. GTS encourages your car to be slower. That in itself is not in the spirit of racing.

And rules were made to be changed. That is why these threads are out there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Fred Crawford

Girls girls girls........ the rules have been simple.. weight vs hp..... if your not competive then add ballast... take away ballast,, add horsepower... or make a driver change. It is very simple and that is what is great about GTS. Work with the rules and get competitive...

 

Fred

Carefull what u ask 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
scottbm3

 

 

Since the beginning of racing the quest has been to make your car faster. GTS encourages your car to be slower. That in itself is not in the spirit of racing.

And rules were made to be changed. That is why these threads are out there.

 

I just don't agree with that. In the five years I've been racing in GTS all the guys I've raced with/against including myself have always been trying to make their cars/themselves faster. I know a couple of guy's that had pretty well built cars that raced in our region that tried to down class to GTS3 from 4 by adding weight. These were newer model cars. They finally decided that it was smarter to take the extra weight out and run GTS4 where their cars fit. One is the 2008 National Champion and the other has been on the podium at Nationals the last two years.

 

The ruleset in GTS is pretty simple and except for a very few cases works really well and I see no reason to mess with the rules when this only affects a very small group and not GTS as a whole. My .02 cents

 

-Scott B.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lemming

The spirit of GTS is weight/hp, that's it. I may well have one of the lowest HP cars in GTS3 and will likely never be at the front at Nationals, but that's ok with me. I don't have the money (professor not banker) to throw at the car like many of my competitors. Having said that, I still like racing GTS. If you have issues with the current GTS, there are always other series that might better suit your need to win, try PT where they have many more rules to follow. Or get yourself a spec car and run a spec series to keep you costs down.

 

Sounds to me that not everyone did there homework when they decided what series they wanted to race.

 

Tim - still trying to find speed on the cheap!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jim Child

I think the spirit of our rules is simplicity. Simplicity in compliance and enforcement. I wouldn't want to do anything to complicate our very simple rules set, or limit the flexibility it provides.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FlyingDog
PCA doesn't allow you to move down a class. They only allow you to move up. The only exception maybe if you backdate a car. I do not know how that works. For example I run E Stock. If I put on bigger brakes or some other non-stock mod I then run E Prepared or F. The rules do not allow the option of running in a lower class where there might be less competition.
You're comparing a "stock" class to an anything goes class (like PCA GT classes). Pick one instead of complaining that they are not the same.

 

The GTS ruleset encourages innovation and individuality. Want to play with aerodynamics? Shock setup? Suspension geometry? Weight? Power? Go for it! Want to design your own parts instead using stuff that has to fit some stock/spec ruleset? Have fun! If you don't like losing to somebody who worked harder developing their car to win in GTS, either go back to PCA/BMWCCA or build a GTS car.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
CARVAL Motorsports

You know, GTS/2 in Great Lakes is a very good example of competiveness with different packages. We have all upgraded our cars in the four to five years that most of us have been involved. I have consistently run the lower hp, lower weight plan, and I have been competitive. I run against cars that have weighed as much as 500 pounds more than me, I have given up as much as 60-65 hp at some points over this time frame, and funny thing, our grid is always close, within 1 to 2 sec., and at the sharp end, almost always around .5 seconds (or less) separating maybe 3 or so cars. A have run three Championships as well, and there has been no huge suprises. But even better, our racing has been very close as well, and that, my friends, is the blame of nothing more than good driving and knowing your cars capabilities.

Sure, we can only go as fast as our budget allows us. We also all can't be race winners. Sometimes I think that we forget what drew us to Amateur racing. For me, and I know a lot of you, it was the thrill of just doing it! Guess what, my budget isn't allowing me to proceed this year. When I rejoin, I may be a couple of seconds off the pace, either to driver rust or to the level of my competition. I will better myself as a driver, and do what is sensible with my budget, and be happy with where I am at. If I am not, then surely, it will be time for me to step away from the sport.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
streak
PCA doesn't allow you to move down a class. They only allow you to move up. The only exception maybe if you backdate a car. I do not know how that works. For example I run E Stock. If I put on bigger brakes or some other non-stock mod I then run E Prepared or F. The rules do not allow the option of running in a lower class where there might be less competition.
You're comparing a "stock" class to an anything goes class (like PCA GT classes). Pick one instead of complaining that they are not the same.

 

The GTS ruleset encourages innovation and individuality. Want to play with aerodynamics? Shock setup? Suspension geometry? Weight? Power? Go for it! Want to design your own parts instead using stuff that has to fit some stock/spec ruleset? Have fun! If you don't like losing to somebody who worked harder developing their car to win in GTS, either go back to PCA/BMWCCA or build a GTS car.

 

No reason to get nasty Mr. Dog. I only posted that as a "you can go up not down" rule example for discussion. That's what this is, a discussion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FlyingDog
No reason to get nasty Mr. Dog. I only posted that as a "you can go up not down" rule example for discussion. That's what this is, a discussion.
Sorry reality seems "nasty" to you. There is a brand new E92 in GTS2 and a few 70's 911s in GTS4/5. That's how they were built. There is no up or down in GTS, just higher or lower pwr/wt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
streak
No reason to get nasty Mr. Dog. I only posted that as a "you can go up not down" rule example for discussion. That's what this is, a discussion.
Sorry reality seems "nasty" to you. There is a brand new E92 in GTS2 and a few 70's 911s in GTS4/5. That's how they were built. There is no up or down in GTS, just higher or lower pwr/wt.

 

You are misinterpreting my point. There is GTS 1, GTS 2, GTS 3, GTS 4, GTS 5, and GTS U. If you are in GTS3 you can go up to 4 or down to 2. Seems pretty up and down to me. I point to an example where up is the only way to go class wise. That's all.

 

Let's get something straight. I didn't start the thread. I didn't propose a rule change. This is a discussion that was started at the track by others and very rightly so has been posted hear for anyone to discuss.

 

I clearly bring a different perspective to the discussion. Mine is from the standpoint of a new entrant into the world of GTS. Maybe you've all gotten over this hump but to me it was like getting called up to the majors from a farm league based on your stats only to find out that to compete in the majors you need to start shooting steroids. It was a little eye opening and I didn't expect it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
streak

As an aside I also think Nasa should do away with points and trophies.

 

I believe everyone should come away a winner. Wouldn't we all be happier that way. A Plaque for every race that just says Winner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Michael Dayton
As an aside I also think Nasa should do away with points and trophies.

 

I believe everyone should come away a winner. Wouldn't we all be happier that way. A Plaque for every race that just says Winner

 

you are joking, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
streak
As an aside I also think Nasa should do away with points and trophies.

 

I believe everyone should come away a winner. Wouldn't we all be happier that way. A Plaque for every race that just says Winner

 

you are joking, right?

 

Fine, if no one's with me I'll just have my own Winner plaques made just for me.

 

Of course I keed I keed.

 

All kidding aside I appreciate the discussion. The philosophy/spirit is much clearer. I still may think that there should be a ballast limit but at least now I know where everyone else is coming from and can make adjustments accordingly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...