Spirit of GTS (From: RULE PROPOSAL: Maximum Ballast)

[Michael Dayton]

If 100lbs = 1 second then looking at historical lap times for the last couple of races it seems like those cars with large amounts of ballast in GTS 2 should win or at the very least have a strong podium finish in GTS 3

 

I did a quick analysis of similar cars (M3 and 325) of past race results. I threw out the obvious anomalies and only compared the cars that I could verify were M3's or 325. I chose those because there are more of them thereby creating a more accurate result.

 

Average times:

 

GTS 2 VIR 2:16

GTS 3 VIR 2:12

 

GTS 2 SP 1:25

GTS 3 SP 1:23

 

By the logic of the group the ballasted GTS 2 cars should be 3 to 4 seconds faster if they remove the ballast so why don't they? Why not lose the weight and run in GTS 3? Clearly they would be in contention.

 

BTW the average ballasted GTS 2 times are very solid top third lap times for the GTS 3 class.

 

If the original intent was to have a grouping of cars that would run similar lap times then there has been a blurring of the class lines IMHO. GTS 2 runs in either Stinger or Autobahn while GTS 3 runs with Thunder for a reason. GTS 2 is not supposed to mix it up with GTS 3. The division of the race groups aren't only by convenience, there's a logic to it. That speaks to the "spirit"

 

Any word on where my Winner plaque is?

 

Schaeffer rents his cars so he should be able to put them in the class he wants so his renters aren't competing against each other...just a thought

 

Also, GTS1-5 ran in Thunder my first year. I don't recall there being any 1 cars. I do think it's a good idea to put them in a different group becuase of the speed difference. But it did teach me a thing or two about track awareness. Some of those cars closed pretty fast...it was a learning experience for sure.

 

As for your winner's plaque...I heard if you ballast down to GTS1 you could have won every race this year!!!!

[streak]

As for your winner's plaque...I heard if you ballast down to GTS1 you could have won every race this year!!!!

 

It would be much cheaper to just get one made, skip the race thing entirely

[streak]

 

I don't have any footage of me running with the e46 posted but I do have one of me chasing Hinkle's 993 RS (I class) at Barber. Clearly the 993 RS is pushing quite a bit more HP than I do, watch and see if there's much of a difference in speed.

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=914794460834126067" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

Ahh the poor 993. there's a lot of talk in PCA about adjusting the rules to give the 993 a better shot at competing. They are generally pretty heavy. I noticed the PCA Club Racing sticker on his fender so he is probably battling the same thing we are, trying to straddle GTS and PCA.

 

I was also unaware that you had a 968/924. I'm thinking you are talking about a 968 which, quite frankly, is a pretty large GT car. I imagine a 924 is pretty spritely with that kind of hp.

 

My car is heavy. The actual hp/wt is approx 15.3. It is a moving target because every time I get weighed its a pretty different number. My hp has been within 1.5 hp from last year to this year but I've weighed anywhere from 2824 to 2884. Don't know why. The PCA rules say I must weight 2812. My buddy and I are working out ways to get weight out for Nasa and put it back in for PCA while keeping the interior to PCA rules as well.

 

Either way, I'm in learning mode and never expected to be in contention for the lead anytime soon. The reason I'm speaking up is as a noob to GTS I didn't expect to be out there with big hp ballasted cars. The other noobs I've spoken with didn't expect it either. I expected cars more like mine. I expected wrong I suppose.

 

I also learned I have a lot to learn about prep. Unfortunately as a noob I suddenly find a series for which I should be in the appropriate car only to discover that I'll need some pretty big money to do more than run with the miatas (the slower ones). If GTS wants to grow, as I'm sure it does, the cost to participate should be reasonable whatever "reasonable" is when racing Porsches and BMW's of course. For me I just love Porsches and don't want to run anything else. Until I get a factory ride, then I'll drive whatever they have.

 

Now I'm going to dig up my video of me passing a 360 spyder at a Ferrari club DE

[JSirota]

I also learned I have a lot to learn about prep. Unfortunately as a noob I suddenly find a series for which I should be in the appropriate car only to discover that I'll need some pretty big money to do more than run with the miatas (the slower ones). If GTS wants to grow, as I'm sure it does, the cost to participate should be reasonable whatever "reasonable" is when racing Porsches and BMW's of course.

 

But the cost to participate *is* reasonable. You're participating as is everyone else. But like every other sort of rule set, the cost to COMPETE can be very expensive. GTS more than most because the rules let you do absolutely anything you want. The thing is, there is no set of rules that can contain costs except for claiming rules. As soon as two people are willing to spend money, the cost to compete in their class will escalate. It doesn't matter what the rules look like, because even if you couldn't change the car at all, these guys would test every weekend, they would have fresh tires every weekend, etc. Especially at the amateur level, spending money and time is a pretty good way to win. And if the rules don't allow spending a lot of money on the car, you can always spend that money on the driver.

 

I think as a self-proclaimed noob, you need to just participate for a while, and not try to change things. You just don't have the background (yet) to be able to predict what would accomplish your goal. There isn't anyone who has been around a while who looked at the GTS rules and thought, "gee, that sounds cheap!" Wide open rules are about as expensive as they get. The only reason it's working so far is because no one is really spending what they could yet. When the national championships have been around a while and winning one is worth something (money, prestige, etc), costs WILL escalate, because people will really try to win. I don't think you'll even recognize the faster end of GTS in, say, 10 years. The slower end will still attract the crossover cars or the entry level cars because it IS easy and "reasonable" to participate. But the fast end ... watch out.

[Lemming]

My car is heavy. The actual hp/wt is approx 15.3. It is a moving target because every time I get weighed its a pretty different number. My hp has been within 1.5 hp from last year to this year but I've weighed anywhere from 2824 to 2884. Don't know why.

 

Get your car down to 2685 coming off track and I think you will not be having the same issues; other than the expense

 

60 lbs is easily explained by the amount of gas in your tank.

[ELEPHANT1]

My car is heavy. The actual hp/wt is approx 15.3. It is a moving target because every time I get weighed its a pretty different number. My hp has been within 1.5 hp from last year to this year but I've weighed anywhere from 2824 to 2884. Don't know why. The PCA rules say I must weight 2812. My buddy and I are working out ways to get weight out for Nasa and put it back in for PCA while keeping the interior to PCA rules as well.

 

So you're at ~185HP then...that's not bad for GTS2, I'm hoping to end up right in that range, maybe a touch higher. But if you're running a cross over car that is prep limited in other areas like suspension and brakes then don't expect to be competitive. Open rules means whatever one wants to do can be done (with few exceptions) and that means cross over cars will ultimately be doomed...sooner or later.

 

Either way, I'm in learning mode and never expected to be in contention for the lead anytime soon. The reason I'm speaking up is as a noob to GTS I didn't expect to be out there with big hp ballasted cars. The other noobs I've spoken with didn't expect it either. I expected cars more like mine. I expected wrong I suppose.

 

Yes, that is exactly correct. While you may enjoy a couple few seasons of similar cars there is absolutely no reason to think this will be the norm. But experience will make you faster even if the car does not change. Of course so will your competitors, even those building GTS specific cars. That's the way of it.

 

Not that it is your primary argument at all but probably the lamest point of view ever is complaining about a ruleset that your car is not specifically built to run in. I hate this argument more than anything ever. If you, and again this is a general "you," build your car specifically for another series then don't be pissing and moaning about not being competitive in another series. Completely ridiculous. Build the car for where you want it to be most competitive and hope for the best in any other series you want to run in.

 

Now I'm going to dig up my video of me passing a 360 spyder at a Ferrari club DE

 

Yes, let's see it. ; )

 

Cheers.

[streak]

I think as a self-proclaimed noob, you need to just participate for a while, and not try to change things. You just don't have the background (yet) to be able to predict what would accomplish your goal.

 

Totally agree. I responded to a question.

[streak]

Not that it is your primary argument at all but probably the lamest point of view ever is complaining about a ruleset that your car is not specifically built to run in. I hate this argument more than anything ever. If you, and again this is a general "you," build your car specifically for another series then don't be pissing and moaning about not being competitive in another series. Completely ridiculous. Build the car for where you want it to be most competitive and hope for the best in any other series you want to run in.

 

In a perfect world I'd have a 6 car garage with a GTS car, something for SCCA and PCA with identical back up cars and I'd be at Summit every weekend racing. But real life prohibits that scenario for all but a few hardworking or lucky competitors.

 

I have much more opportunity to run with Nasa since they are a Summit once a month but PCA runs a great program as well. That's my struggle. I would think that both series, any series particularly now, is trying to cast the widest net possible to keep participation steady. That is going to bring the crossovers. I understand what you are saying but its unavoidable with so many series to run.

 

Next step: cutting torch and a crow bar!

[ELEPHANT1]

Not that it is your primary argument at all but probably the lamest point of view ever is complaining about a ruleset that your car is not specifically built to run in. I hate this argument more than anything ever. If you, and again this is a general "you," build your car specifically for another series then don't be pissing and moaning about not being competitive in another series. Completely ridiculous. Build the car for where you want it to be most competitive and hope for the best in any other series you want to run in.

 

In a perfect world I'd have a 6 car garage with a GTS car, something for SCCA and PCA with identical back up cars and I'd be at Summit every weekend racing. But real life prohibits that scenario for all but a few hardworking or lucky competitors.

 

I have much more opportunity to run with Nasa since they are a Summit once a month but PCA runs a great program as well. That's my struggle. I would think that both series, any series particularly now, is trying to cast the widest net possible to keep participation steady. That is going to bring the crossovers. I understand what you are saying but its unavoidable with so many series to run.

 

Next step: cutting torch and a crow bar!

 

I agree but in my opinion, I think you'll have a lot more fun if you build your car to one specific series, the one you plan to run the most and perhaps think you can be most competitive and then simply cross over to the other series. If NASA offers you the most opportunities and you choose to build for a different series with limited prep rules you will always be at a disadvantage. I assume there is some more open type class you can run in PCA, in BMW CCA we have mod classes which have very few rules though several more than GTS. I am building my car specifically for GTS and it will, currently, put me in D modified in BMW CCA where, with less than probably 280RWHP, I will have zero chance of being competitive. But that's fine, there will be someone to run with for certain when I do those events. The only way to truly have a well done cross over car that may stand the test of time a bit longer is to have a GTS4/5/U car that runs in a similarly rules-mostly-unlimited class in whatever other series you plan to run, otherwise you're compromising.

 

Choose your series and enjoy!

 

Cheers. Oh, easy with the torch, it's a lotta work to put it back! ; )

[streak]

It looks like I'll end up in a "prepared" class with PCA. That way I can do brakes, suspension and engine mods and then totally dominate GTS!

 

That's a way off though.

 

It's only time and money right?

[cwbaader]

Jack, let's back up a bit. NASA started for people that were dissatisfyed with the rules sets of PCA, SCCA, BMW, etc. I have not seen but one podium car in any of these series run NASA in the south east at least. Correct me if I am wrong. So, those cars chose to move to NASA to take advantage of a open rule set. Ok, fine. Now these same people are facing reality...to be competitive at this time you must spend mega bucks. Hence my post about GTS numbers dwindling.

 

The other point is that many of us choose to run with several organizations. I run SCCA, BMW, NASA, and PBOC and be competitive in each except NASA. I do still run, but as this next Barber race as an example, there is one GTS2 car entered, therefore, it is not worth my money to enter. I can run with other groups and win merchandise contingencies but because of low turnouts, nothing with NASA.

 

Obviously there is a problem with GTS that needs to be addressed. The current rule set definitely needs some tweaking to get entry numbers back up. Just say'n....Chuck

[Lemming]

I have not seen but one podium car in any of these series run NASA in the south east at least. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

Are you talking about me? If not make it two

[cwbaader]

Nope, was talking about mine...make that two...wow Chuck

[Damon in STL]

Jack, let's back up a bit. NASA started for people that were dissatisfyed with the rules sets of PCA, SCCA, BMW, etc. I have not seen but one podium car in any of these series run NASA in the south east at least. Correct me if I am wrong. So, those cars chose to move to NASA to take advantage of a open rule set. Ok, fine. Now these same people are facing reality...to be competitive at this time you must spend mega bucks. Hence my post about GTS numbers dwindling.

 

The other point is that many of us choose to run with several organizations. I run SCCA, BMW, NASA, and PBOC and be competitive in each except NASA. I do still run, but as this next Barber race as an example, there is one GTS2 car entered, therefore, it is not worth my money to enter. I can run with other groups and win merchandise contingencies but because of low turnouts, nothing with NASA.

 

Obviously there is a problem with GTS that needs to be addressed. The current rule set definitely needs some tweaking to get entry numbers back up. Just say'n....Chuck

 

Hmm....

 

My car was a BMW JP "Lite" car which I chose to run in GTS2 last year. I was over 300 lbs heavy and decided to run 215/580/15 slicks since they were $100 each (and they were the old C50 compound...at that). I would not have been competitive in BMW CR without cams, brakes, and more than the re-valved bilsteins I run. It would have cost me a bunch to upgrade my stock 166 RWHP motor, new big brakes all around, and to the latest suspension. So, I chose to race in GTS2 and have done fairly well.

 

I think all car numbers are down this year. This I'm bummed about. But, that's the way it goes some time.

 

I'm confused by your posts which come across as constantly being angry with NASA.

 

Damon in STL

[Lemming]

I'm confused by your posts which come across as constantly being angry with NASA.

Damon in STL

 

Chuck is angry with the world, after all, he is retired and has nothing better to do

[cwbaader]

I'm not angry with anyone. I personally don't like the hp+torque requirement for figuring hp/weight because it forces me to run cars that are in faster classes than mine in other organizations. (Damon...your car is an JP car in BMW, mine is a MP...how are they equal?) All I ever said I wanted is a level playing field. That said, I could choose to convert my car to run NASA but it would not be able to run with other organizations. The beauty of an E30 is its flexibility with whom it can run. I made that choice, I live with it, but I will try to change that rule if I can.

 

One other thing...I do tend to get quite short when typing...some read this as anger. Don't worry, I enjoy the NASA racing and people and I'm not mad with anyone.

 

Oh, Tim...I am at one with the world...as long as y'all keep working so I can draw social security and race on your backs Chuck

[Damon in STL]

Chuck,

 

I went through many of the same issues as you have with trying to make my car fit a bunch of different classes and groups to run with. I went around and around thinking ITR....no wait....JP "Lite"....no...how about GTS2...etc...

 

What I finally looked for was the big "Easy Button". I will always be a part-time racer. So, what I needed was to find the closest events where there was some level of competition and where I did not need to do a bunch of work ($$'s) to my car to fit in. NASA is the right choice for me and my M3. It's easy...because I don't like a lot of rules. NASA enduro's are the right choice for my ITB 318i. And, the 318i is also a nice fit for my local SCCA ITB group.

 

I think all groups have good people. And, all groups have some things that will always be irritating. My way of dealing with them has been to not try and force a square peg (e30 M3) into a round hole.

 

Damon in STL

[FlyingDog]

Obviously there is a problem with GTS that needs to be addressed. The current rule set definitely needs some tweaking to get entry numbers back up. Just say'n....Chuck

...or if it gets tweaked, numbers will go down more.

I think all car numbers are down this year. This I'm bummed about. But' date=' that's the way it goes some time.[/quote']Last year, Hyperfest registration was completely filled in 4 days. This year, Thunder and HPDE took 2 weeks to fill. Autobahn and Stinger are still not filled.

[ELEPHANT1]

Yeah, I'd like to see where the NASA numbers are down. Perhaps in the SE they're down, maybe in some other locations as well but are we really trying to say that's because of the rules? That's quite a leap considering every other possible factor that might influence that. I didn't compare GTS numbers at Putnam this year to last year but at a glance it seemed like they were up. I dunno, maybe they are down. Heck maybe because the Championships are at Miller people have gone back to other series. Really, how is any change in numbers immediately related to rules? And by that same leap, as that other dude (sorry, didn't quote you, don't recall your name) said, how do we know tweaking the rules will not send [more] people away?

 

The rules have been pretty stable for a long time and, AFAIK, GTS numbers have improved every year. I might very well say that the rules are what is drawing people rather than turning them away.

 

I'm gonna need data on this, otherwise it's opinion which is not enough to make a change that affects a lot of people. ; )

 

Cheers.

[ianacole]

I'm gonna need data on this, otherwise it's opinion which is not enough to make a change that affects a lot of people. ; )

 

I've put in a request to get some numbers on this topic.

 

 

So, all, back to the original topic : What is the spirit of GTS? Some place where anyone with a German car can come play with like-minded enthusiasts without a lot of overhead, or some place that someone with a German car can come be competitive?

[streak]

 

So, all, back to the original topic : What is the spirit of GTS? Some place where anyone with a German car and a numbered account in a Swiss bank can come play with like-minded enthusiasts, or some place that someone with a German car can come be competitive?

 

Fixed that for you

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I can be kind of a smart alec

[ELEPHANT1]

I'm gonna need data on this, otherwise it's opinion which is not enough to make a change that affects a lot of people. ; )

 

I've put in a request to get some numbers on this topic.

 

 

So, all, back to the original topic : What is the spirit of GTS? Some place where anyone with a German car can come play with like-minded enthusiasts without a lot of overhead, or some place that someone with a German car can come be competitive?

 

I don't think that is worded correctly. Well, at the very least it's contradictory. The ruleset has always been open, from the very beginning. I find it very hard to believe that the founders (and I actually recall when this started, I participated in some of the discussions before it all happened) felt that unlimited rules would promote low dollar racing. Point being, if the series is based on the open ruleset then "without a lot of overhead" is not even a consideration. There is NO WAY possible to limit costs period and even if there was, doing it with an open ruleset is not.

 

If there is any perception that the cost of being competitive will somehow have a cap of any kind then we might as well scrap the whole thing now and create classes with limited preparation rules.

 

GTS Challenge is a place where people can come to race German marque vehicles in defined classes limited only by where they care to stop developing their cars. Sportsmanship and competition go hand in hand but like ones imagination, there is little cap on development costs. For those who wish to be competitive and have somewhat limited (AKA mythical) costs of preparation, there is the PT series, USTCC, etc.

 

The spirit of GTS is to allow sportsman the opportunity to do what they wish to their cars and allow creative development for classification.

 

IMO, YMMV.

 

Cheers.

[ianacole]

 

So, all, back to the original topic : What is the spirit of GTS? Some place where anyone with a German car and a numbered account in a Swiss bank can come play with like-minded enthusiasts, or some place that someone with a German car can come be competitive?

 

Fixed that for you

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I can be kind of a smart alec

 

I appreciate your jest, but that gets at the heart of the difference there. No sanctioning body with any rule set guarantees competitiveness of cars at an amateur level - attempts to equalize the playing field have resulted in rules that are extremely complex and difficult to follow.

 

And you don't need a Swiss bank account to come play in GTS. One of our Midwest competitors comes out in his '84 GTI that has less than $3000 into it - races in GTS-1. Is he competitive? Depends on who shows up. Does he have a good time? You better believe he does. Regardless of your level of prep and investment, with enough participation, there will always be someone to race with who is at roughly the same level of prep and investment you are.

 

You want to be first? Be prepared to spend, regardless of the series you race in. Think the back markers in Spec-Miata at the National Championships last year spent anywhere near the amount the podium finishers did? I'm willing to bet that on average, the podium finishers spent a significant amount more on their efforts that those towards the end of the finishers.

 

Nowhere in our rules does it say that you have to spend money (other than minimum safety and entrance fees (unless you work corners)) to come participate. Anything beyond that is your choice and your decision to make. Nor did the rules guarantee competitiveness. You entered into this playground with preconceived notions, and it seems to me that since they where not upheld, are looking for reasons other than the preconceived notions.

[ianacole]

I'm gonna need data on this, otherwise it's opinion which is not enough to make a change that affects a lot of people. ; )

 

I've put in a request to get some numbers on this topic.

 

 

So, all, back to the original topic : What is the spirit of GTS? Some place where anyone with a German car can come play with like-minded enthusiasts without a lot of overhead, or some place that someone with a German car can come be competitive?

 

I don't think that is worded correctly. Well, at the very least it's contradictory. The ruleset has always been open, from the very beginning. I find it very hard to believe that the founders (and I actually recall when this started, I participated in some of the discussions before it all happened) felt that unlimited rules would promote low dollar racing. Point being, if the series is based on the open ruleset then "without a lot of overhead" is not even a consideration. There is NO WAY possible to limit costs period and even if there was, doing it with an open ruleset is not.

 

If there is any perception that the cost of being competitive will somehow have a cap of any kind then we might as well scrap the whole thing now and create classes with limited preparation rules.

 

GTS Challenge is a place where people can come to race German marque vehicles in defined classes limited only by where they care to stop developing their cars. Sportsmanship and competition go hand in hand but like ones imagination, there is little cap on development costs. For those who wish to be competitive and have somewhat limited (AKA mythical) costs of preparation, there is the PT series, USTCC, etc.

 

The spirit of GTS is to allow sportsman the opportunity to do what they wish to their cars and allow creative development for classification.

 

IMO, YMMV.

 

Cheers.

 

By overhead I meant rule compliance requirements...assuring you've purchased the right parts from the right vendors and are driving the right year car. Participating in SCCA Solo has a lot of overhead in rule compliance.

[streak]

You entered into this playground with preconceived notions, and it seems to me that since they where not upheld, are looking for reasons other than the preconceived notions.

 

 

I don't follow you. What reasons am I looking for?