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Putnam Park recap from TTC... pics and vid...


cuonice

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Respect the rules... don't act like a "poor us" victim because you were classed wrong!

Again, this isn't Aaron, just an outside observer that happens to also race in TT. Aaron isn't the one "whining", and isn't even going to appeal this protest - even though I and many others think he should.

True, I know you aren't Aaron. But you are the guy who hooked him up with shocks and could benefit from his forum advertising (this thread and the other identical one in Great Lakes) and your blog posts where you are still claiming he broke the TTC lap record. That would be like me claiming the TTF track record at Mid-Ohio even though my car is in TTD

 

You think he should appeal the protest? Based on what? That it was a few weeks after the event, instead of the fact that he didn't really have a TTC car? The right thing to do here would be to say "Hey guys, sorry, my bumper screwed me and I was in the wrong class and have withdrawn my entry. But you are all on notice that I'm gonna come kick ass in Great Lakes TTC now". Sheesh, what's wrong with claiming the TTB record... this is amateur club fun after all. Not many people actually care about track records and - to be really honest - they are not recorded well in GL or MW region anyway.

 

FWIW I agree with you that a post-event DQ is crap unless the competitor admits to having an illegal part on the car or there is some other indisputable proof that the car was in the wrong class. I do believe there is a time period within the CCR that protests must be filed in. Nationally this is the rule. I also think that appealing said protest now that it's over - however it happened - would be advocating a car competing out of class, even as an honest mistake.

 

It's a bad situation but the car wasn't legal for the class it was in, so the best thing would be to pick up, learn from it, and go kill the Mid-Ohio track record 100% legally Like Mark I hope to see Aaron at Mid-Ohio and am more than willing to help him go over the car to make sure it's 100% legal for the class declared.

 

Look down the page to Time Trial. Same rule for both regions.

This supersedes the TTR in my regions.

Bryan, you never did respond to my PM about locking down the other thread. I was hoping we would have a private discussion about it. I have to admit I am surprised you are superceding the TTR rules and directing all protests through yourself. How do the other regions handle this... is there precedent to this type of change elsewhere?

 

Patrick

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I did not respond as such because there was nothing to add, except for the thread to go downhill. I don't moderate on the national forums so this one is not my worry...

 

As for the protest rules, the TTR supersede the CCR in it's protest rules. Perfectly legal to do so.

 

As Race Director, I can make a rule as I see fit for a race or event or season. The CCR allows for this and I exercised that right. Here is the section of the CCR that allows this:

2.12 Officials / Rules Hierarchy

This section is intended to clarify hierarchy among some officials and rules. Where there

is a conflict, the following order should be used. Each item on this list supersedes the

prior listed item whenever there is a conflict:

• Club Codes and Regulations

• Class Rules

• Local or Event Supplemental Rules

• Drivers’ Meeting Information

• Orders From Officials

• Race Director

• Executive Director

• Medical Staff (with regards to patient care and their duties).

The TTR falls under CCR and the Class Rules the way I understand things.

 

I do the same for wheel to wheel racing by implementation of a automatic DQ for at fault contact at each event. I could put it in writing but it has more effect when I mention it at each drivers meeting face to face. (BTW, in 3 events this year using the above method we've had a total of 6 body contact forms submitted. Must have a positive effect.

 

The main reason I made the change is because otherwise my TT Directors are placed in the line of fire and that is not acceptable. Geff and Jerry do not have the experience or time to deal with things like this. I spent close to 10 hours over a week on it.

 

I mainly posted here as some were wondering who the NASA official was that made the call.

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Respect the rules... don't act like a "poor us" victim because you were classed wrong!

Again, this isn't Aaron, just an outside observer that happens to also race in TT. Aaron isn't the one "whining", and isn't even going to appeal this protest - even though I and many others think he should.

 

My problem is that he did ask his competitors to look over the car at the event, and more than one competitor went over his classing sheet and added up the points for "TTC". It wasn't until the keyboard cowboys picked apart his car here on this forum, and used every possible interpretation of the rules (slotted ball joints are "free" in one rule but not in another; then finding a total of 7 points in that bumper!) to add up points differently, that it was deemed TTB - weeks after the event. Then a protest was lodged, then he was DSQ'd.

 

Vehicle legality is the sole

responsibility of the driver. NASA TT Officials will attempt to use less invasive techniques for

monitoring TT rules compliance than is expected in NASA race classes. As such, penalties for

non-compliance with the rules will be harsh, and may include disqualification and expulsion

from further NASA TT competition with a single infraction, regardless of the nature of the

infraction. Competitors are encouraged to seek clarification of any rule and/or inspection of any

modified or non-OEM part they are unsure about, before competition, from their Regional TT

Director or the National TT Director.

 

The rules are pretty clear, this is not a race group in the sense that they really don't tear the cars apart, mostly they are street cars. The rules are meant to be self policed as in if it's illegal it's illegal not legal till you get protested. TT is more of a gentleman's group as in you class your car yourself and it's your responsibility to make sure you did it correctly. You made a comment about him bringing a competitor over to look over the car that has no bearing because his competitors don't class his car he does and the rules clearly state he needs to do it correctly, the only person he should have asked for help form would have been Jerry or someone that has intimate knowledge of the rules. I'm thinking Aaron might be one of those people after getting his car torn apart.

 

I for one can't wait to see Aaron out there again eith in TTB or TTC but I hope he isn't in TTS but at least TTS is easy, weight and dyno and your done.

 

 

Either way nice driving Aaron

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Indeed.

 

Let me tell you all a little story and preface it by saying that I'm not here to make any enemies. It's long, but if I was a betting man, I'd bet you it was worth your time...

 

This story starts last year. Much to the dismay of most of my friends who love the HPDE, I attended some 25+ SCCA-sponsored autocrosses during last year's competition season in my RSX Type S, traveling thousands of miles across the midwest to compete at places all across Kentucky, Tennessee, and Ohio. I was more than dedicated, but this earns me no street-cred around here, so I'll hush up about taking points and events trophies in 4 separate regions. The bottom line is that I love racing, whether it's cones in a car or karts near the beach, and I am more than willing to travel, but I'll get to that in a bit.

 

Toward the end of last year's autocross season, I was getting more and more pressure to make it out to a track day with my buddies, who told me the lore of 120+ mph straights, big sweepers, and best of all, no penalties for hitting cones. It was sounding better and better, and I was almost ready to do it until my budget got the best of me when I purchased a new car. Enter my 2001 Acura Integra Type R.

 

Months were spent on the Integra's paint. I revived it to its once showroom-pristine glory, but became a bit disheartened when I found a small rust bubble in the paint. Nevertheless, I pursued a goal of crystal clear paint and garage-queen status.

 

As Christmas rolled around, I was already starting to think of next year's season. I possessed what was dubbed repeatedly as the best front-wheel-drive car ever made and to make matters even better, a local S2000 club sponsored a track event scheduled to go off on May 29th, 2009 at the new Bluegrass Motorsports Park. Gentlemen, let me tell you, I was as giddy as a virgin on prom night.

 

A couple months go by and as the end of winter approached, I had the car ready to roll. The only thing I needed at this point was a track day to pop my road course cherry. I began buying more parts. Carbotechs, NT01s, race gloves, my wallet was hating life, but I'd be damned if I was going to let anything stand in my way. Time approached the May date, and as it did, rumors began spreading about the potential of the track not being ready. Anxiety is an understatement.

 

I found out about our track day postponement the week of May 4th, and at this point, I can't think of any word to describe it other than sucky. I sat in disappointment for about a week before Aaron told me about Mike Winebrenner's track day before the NASA weekend. Conditions snowballed and eventually, I pulled out a credit card and spent money I didn't have on a track day that wasn't supposed to be my first. I took off work on Friday and left my girlfriend home alone after she just moved in with me the weekend before.

 

Uneasy about the entire situation and never really feeling like things were going to happen the way they were planned, I persevered and packed my car up, fully prepared for the track day. Some underlying conditions prevented me from getting my race seat installed before the day before the track day, but I was able to get the shipping sped up and get the seat prepared before leaving to meet at Aaron's house.

 

When I got there, I was, of course, the first one there, still giddy and anxious as ever. This was what it was all about. I was caravanning with friends and ready to go balls out... but something still didn't feel right. Remember that pristine paint with the small rust bubble? It was at Aaron's house that I took a plunge I never thought I would. We rolled my fenders because my gigantor track tires were rubbing on the fenders. Chipping paint and cracking occurred around the rust, but Aaron stuck with me and rolled my fenders as the sun went down and my friends were urging us to hurry up. Aaron stayed patient through it all because he, like myself, wanted things to go well for me on my first track day experience. He knew how much my car meant to me and he helped calm me when things weren't going as well as we had hoped.

 

Fast forward to Putnam the next day after an awesome drive up and a good night with friends, and you have me, sitting in front of my car asking why it hated me. It had burnt through about a quart and a half of oil and I was done for the day by 2 PM, convinced that this was what I was worried about the whole time. What happened next was unforeseen. My buddy Korey decided that I was a "pussy", and given his broken car, he'd do anything to be in my position with a little extra oil in the crankcase. This was the kick in the ass I needed. I went out the next session with Aaron in the car.

 

With Aaron's tips, I went from running a stopwatch estimated 1:43 early in the day to nipping on the heels of and waiting for a point by from my buddy who was running 1:26. Aaron pushed me harder than I ever thought I could go. For a front wheel drive car with 175 WHP and a rookie driver, 1:26 was no slouch. But I didn't stop there. The next and last session out, I borrowed Aaron's lap timer (he's that kind of guy). I went 1:24.67 by the end of the day in a TTD-classed Integra with a new driver.

 

A loose brake caliper bolt and side-of-the-road pit stop later, I was on my way back to Lexington. Nearly the whole way, I was ready to find a shop and get caged and fully prepped. I talked to Aaron on the way home repeatedly, having to ask for tips driving in the rain on NT01s. When I got back, I made my girlfriend endure hours of video making and watching.

 

For the last two weeks, I've done nothing but think about how I was going to get my competition license and come out to ream on some TTD competition. That is, until I found this thread. No longer am I excited about coming to compete in the TT series. No longer am I excited about taking the next step in my automotive career. No longer am I doing the math and watching the videos to see where I can make up time to break a lap record. Why? Because I'm fairly certain that the keyboard jockeys on this forum will suck the life and the fun out of any glory I may hope to achieve. If this is what happens when you're new and you do well, I want no part of it.

 

At the ripe old age of 24, my motorsports career may be drawing to an end. I've "lost that lovin' feeling" for what was once "the plan". My naivety forced me to succumb to the notion that people are generally good in the race scene. But no more. No longer will I hold that opinion. But hey, thanks for sucking the fun out of it, guys. Now, I have the chance to grow old several years sooner. Instead of NASA gaining the support of someone willing to travel thousands of miles to compete in events across the country and make sacrifices to compete, they won't be getting me.

 

I guess we all have to grow up at some point. It just looks like several of you have chosen not to just yet.

 

Peace, y'all. I'm out.

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At the ripe old age of 24, my motorsports career may be drawing to an end. I've "lost that lovin' feeling" for what was once "the plan". My naivety forced me to succumb to the notion that people are generally good in the race scene. But no more. No longer will I hold that opinion. But hey, thanks for sucking the fun out of it, guys. Now, I have the chance to grow old several years sooner. Instead of NASA gaining the support of someone willing to travel thousands of miles to compete in events across the country and make sacrifices to compete, they won't be getting me.

 

Michael, it's really just you Honduh guys.

 

OK just kidding. Please reconsider and try another event or two. I believe Aaron is going to give us another chance so I hope you do as well.

 

If you go into the regional forums, you will find thread after thread of how great NASA people are. If you need a part at the track or help working on the car or whatever you will find more volunteers than you can use. It really is just a great group of people. And I think that's most car clubs, yes even the S-club and those darn autox'ers.

 

But coming from an autox background surely you understand nit-picky rules and enforcement. Since you are a Honda guy ask Andy Hollis about that valve spring or whatever it was last year. Rules are rules, they are written for a reason that isn't always clear up front, but they are out there. And they do need to be enforced. Unfortunately with NASA PT/TT the enforcement of such rules at the regional level has mostly been self-policing by other competitors for better or worse. And we're seeing for better here (clarification of aftermarket bumper/fascia points, clarification of wing endplates, modification to regional DQ rules) as well as worse (keyboard flaming, whatever).

 

The other problem is that Aaron is just also a fast driver. I am typically mid-pack in my TTE Miata so I generally don't draw attention to myself. If you don't want to be nit-picked you could possibly try that strategy? Or more seriously as Greg has noted on here - for any first time TT participant I really do recommend getting your car inspected. And not just by some random guys in the class, by some guys that are very familiar with the rules or a regional director even. There are lots of helpful guys out there. Heck even Patrick is helpful...in person at least...

 

Trust me though - this all sorts out when we get to the track and have fun. Don't let some threads on the internet stop you from coming out and trying it in person.

 

To the mods - might be time to lock this thread even? If someone wants to start a thread about regional rules enforcement or DQ procedures fine but not sure there is much more to look at here?

 

- Mark

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I think we can sum this whole thread up by saying that yes, Aaron drove the ever-living snot out of the car, and slaughtered the TTC lap record. Whether his car was legally a TTC car or not is what the real debate is all about. So far, there has been protest, the protest was reviewed, and a DQ was issued. What anybody's personal opinion is about how many points a specific mod is worth is a moot point, the rules are the rules, and by signing up for TT and submitting a classification form, the entrant is agreeing to abide by the rules and the procedures of TT and the CCR.

 

I personally don't think that Aaron was trying to pull a fast one, bringing in a wind-tunnel designed fascia, hiding uber-dollar dampers inside of cheap-o housings, and then claiming that they weren't what they were, I think he made an honest mistake in interpreting the rules and classing his car. I take NOTHING away from his driving ability whatsoever. Unfortunately, he got bit by the rules, and that's the end of the story.

 

The rules exist to attempt to even the field on a car-to-car basis, allowing the competition to be amongst the drivers, and not the depth of the pockets. For the most part, I think those rules work well.

 

Michael: Give NASA another chance, trust me. From what I can see, and knowing most of the participants involved, there was no "get the other guy" mentality at play here, just a whole bunch of type-A personalities doing what they do best. The structure of the rules is no different from the SCCA autocross events in intent, just in specifics. If you mis-class your car for an SCCA event, kill the record, and get caught, you would expect to have your win DQ'd, no? The self-policing is just the way that TT does business, and is no big deal. If it saves us $50 in registration fees and a ton of time in tech over having a specific person doing the inspections and then arguing with them about interpretation, I'm all for it. I haven't even entered in TT yet, and my car build has changed classifications three times, with rule changes and interpretations. The people are still some of the best you'll meet around a track, anywhere.

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Are you serious? A couple guys on the internet bitch about a car and that's a big deal? Stop crying over your keyboard, build a legal car, (checked by an OFFICIAL) and beat everybody up. I mean really! All this carrying on is getting old. If I had this much attention about my car it might motivate me to actually build something competitive.

 

If a thread on the internet has had that much of an impact on your life, I am truly sorry.

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at the dude with 1 post saying "oh I'll never run with you guys". Every club that has good competition inevitably will have some guys get their noses out of joint over car legality. Its human nature. We'll still be around when you figure that out though.

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:lol: at the dude with 1 post saying "oh I'll never run with you guys". Every club that has good competition inevitably will have some guys get their noses out of joint over car legality. Its human nature. We'll still be around when you figure that out though.

 

Not to mention, six people on the Internet is not exactly reflective of what happens at the track, the mentality, or how much fun it actually is.

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  • National Staff

Ok, I agree with Mark. This is done. I'm just going to clarify a few things first.

 

PT has different protest procedures than TT. They were repeatedly getting lumped together, but that is not the case. PT follows the CCR protest rules for racers, and the penalties are different than in TT, as listed in the PT Rules. Why? There are multiple reasons.

 

The first is that we want to take the least invasive approach to compliance tech inspection of TT cars as possible. This is for the benefit of our drivers. In lieu of such invasive inspections, we have the rules regarding protests (including the allowance for TT Directors to accept protests that they deem appropriate at whatever time they deem appropriate), the potential severity of penalties, and very clear mandate that rules are to be followed and that drivers have the sole responsibility for ensuring that their cars are legal.

 

The second reason is that the last TT competition session on Sunday can end up being at the very end of the day, when everyone from the competitors, Tech Officials, T&S, all staff, and the Regional TT Directors are trying to get off track property by the required time. Many TT competitors may have already left earlier in the day. This is not the same as a PT race, where everyone is there for the race, present in impound, still around for at least thirty minutes after the race, and with a full compliment of Tech Officials, Race Director, and Series Directors present. Are we now going to mandate that everyone that cares about the TT competition MUST stay until the end of the final session on Sunday to see if someone needs to be protested? Clearly, if there are questions about what was on a car at that time, then the inspection needs to be done then. However, the TT Rules specifically allow for retroactive revocation of points when it turns out that a driver incorrectly assessed points and ran illegally. In TT, we think that 99% of our drivers would rather have a "fair" outcome, where cars that were not legal do not get to keep track records and wins. The other 1% would mostly be...well you decide.

 

The third reason is as stated by someone above. If we raise the registration fee by $50, I'm sure that we can hire someone specifically to spend all weekend teching cars. Most drivers would rather keep the $50 in their pocket.

 

I could go on, but have run out of time--got to go to work.

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