New power/weight limits for classes.

[Trevor57]

Do these new rules create an advantage for smaller better handling cars? These rules even bump some cars out of their own base class. I have only looked at a couple cars, but here is an example.

 

95 Mustang GT stock will put down about 210, and a base weight of 3075. So 3075/210 = 14.64

-.2 weight adjustment. +.8 for 245 tires. =15.24 That means the car has to start in TTD.

 

Maybe I missed some off season rule discussion, but what is the deal? Why were these new restrictions put in place?

[kbrew8991]

those lighter small power cars would likely have to spend all their points on power and weight to even get close to those limits, leaving them on street tires, stock suspension, etc... I wouldn't be scared of them

[phoenixR34]

All that means to me is that the Mustang is an ideal TTD car. Since you don't have to spend any points getting to the HP/WT limit of the class, you can burn all 19 doing tires, suspension, etc.

 

Whereas what Ken said, an Acura Integra for example, might need to use all the points just to get to the HP/WT limit, which only leaves a few points for tires and stuff.. not an idea situation.

 

FWIW, I'm not a fan of the HP/WT limits either, especially in the lower classes (that aren't affected by EVOs, Subarus, etc), but the rules are the rules so it's a matter of finding a combo that works.

[boomn29]

Although I understand the point, some of those ratios for certain cars are a little iffy. A few examples of cars that are extremely close in stock form; or maybe just well suited for the class!

 

the 00-03 S2000 in TTD (14.25:1)

- 2850 min weight

 

the 01-04 c5 Z06 Corvette in TTA (8.7:1)

- 3118 min weight

[drivinhardz06]

Although I understand the point, some of those ratios for certain cars are a little iffy. A few examples of cars that are extremely close in stock form;

 

Or over. A tuned stock C5Z06 can exceed 358 WHP (assuming you are running at min weight)

[Markus]

I'm all for the power/weight limits. (Although maybe that's because my car is also one of the ones that classes right up against the limit).

 

I'm NOT all for the adjustment factors. It seems like the adjustment factors were originally developed for TTS/U/R/Super Unlimited, etc. And maybe they make sense there. But I don't think they make sense for TTA-TTF.

 

Why? Because all that stuff was supposedly already covered in base classing. So you are either paying (or benefitting) 2x. My car (Miata) is conceivably base classed a little higher than a 4-door FWD sedan with similar power because it is a RWD lightweight convertible. So the 4-door econobox gets the benefit of more points to work with in base classing. But then you use the adjustment factors and the econobox gets the same benefits all over again.

 

Also in general I wonder how much some of this really matters? IE the time trials ruleset drifted away from "run what you brung" to "build a dedicated car or get stomped" a couple of years ago. So if you're building a dedicated PT/TT car, do some of the adjustment factors really matter? IE is a 4-door sedan with proper cage really at a disadvantage to a 2-door coupe of the same make? Is a properly set up FWD race car really at a disadvantage to a RWD car? And if so - is it to the extend this needs to be addressed in both the base classing and adjustment factors?

 

And last - I should mention I hate math and anything that even kind of resembles a fraction. The adjustment factors just make it too darn complex for me.

 

OK thank you, rant off.

 

- Mark

[kbrew8991]

but Markus, this was all part of making sure TTF stands for TT Front-Wheel-Drive. Can't have one of us upsetting that applecart now can we?

[Rob S.]

Mark makes a valid point. The base classing in TTF - TTA supposedly takes into consideration the drive type and body style. These additional adjustments to the WT/HP ratio seem to be more applicable to TTS / TTU. With that said I think the class min ratios were a great addition!

[Markus]

Interestingly - body style and drivetrain are a wash for my car, I get penalized for low weight, then I get a credit for tire size. So the net effect is pretty much nothing. I just hate doing the math and find it redundant to base classing.

 

Somewhat related to this - some of the other recent rules changes are geared toward enforcement (ie ECU points change), seems the adjusters would make field enforcement harder?

 

- Mark

 

PS Ken - you need to just jump up to TTS (TTStaggeredtiresize).

[MSP608]

Am I completely missing something? Since when do TTA-TTF have to worry about adjustment factors? I thought there were only points and a power/weight limit I had to worry about. I've looked through the rules in case I missed something, but I only see that TTS, TTU, and TTR have to deal with adjustments. Someone please explain.

[Trevor57]

Look again. It's in red you may need to start from the top.

[kbrew8991]

Am I completely missing something? Since when do TTA-TTF have to worry about adjustment factors? I thought there were only points and a power/weight limit I had to worry about. I've looked through the rules in case I missed something, but I only see that TTS, TTU, and TTR have to deal with adjustments. Someone please explain.

 

1.) you've always had to watch your adjusted to make sure it was over 8.70 in A-F

 

2.) might want to read the latest rules before posting next time

[IGZOSTD]

I'm all for these power to weight ratios . The only problem is as it stands there is no way to police it . I think that there are a few guys that would break out of class if we did . And now that lap records are being broken, are they legit or not , we'll never really know.

[MSP608]

I just started TT so I guess I've always been looking at the current rules and didn't notice this change. I think I misunderstood the first post in thinking that the only way to class now was by using the adjusted.

 

I understand the limit. Even with my base weight (which I'm no where near) I have plenty of room before my class limit.

 

Guess I should have read harder to see this:

These minimum “Adjusted” weight/power ratios are not a substitute

- 6 -

for base classing followed by calculation of modification points to determine the final

competition class. They are an additional limitation placed on vehicles to help achieve a level

platform for competition in each class

 

So basically, are some of you guys complaining that the class limit numbers have changed since last year?

[TurboShortBus]

So basically, are some of you guys complaining that the class limit numbers have changed since last year?

The power to weight rules are brand new for 2009, so there were no numbers to compare from 2008.

 

Mark

[IGZOSTD]

No complaints about the pwr to wt. ratios, just that they are not policed. They need to take the top 3 cars in each class 1/2 way through the season and dyno them and if they are under take their points away. Its the right thing to do.

Just remember to watch your modifications and your power to weight .

[phoenixR34]

At Nationals, where it counts, the HP/WT ratios will be policed. Locally, it's up to the regional director to do something about it.. at least that's how I understand it.

 

In my region at least, there are people going to the dyno every week at the request of the TT/PT directors to ensure compliance.. no different than S/U/R or ST/SU classes.

[IGZOSTD]

That's good news , I'll be asking our director this weekend to start looking at checking the cars.

For me the regional weekends are whats important.

[Trevor57]

So people have to drag their cars out to a dyno shop during the week?

[AZELISE]

So people have to drag their cars out to a dyno shop during the week?

 

The prefered Dyno shop is open on Saturdays too in AZ. If I make a change to the car that affects the engine I will go to the dyno. I went to the dyno soon after the rule came out and had to ballast up.

 

Also, at the last event I was sent to the scales for a weight check. I was 17 pounds overweight.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Guest

[IGZOSTD]

Trevor,

I think the only one's that need to prove they comply are overall points, the top 3 in each class .