TT points question - exhaust and pulley

[Rob S.]

I have a few quick questions about the TT/PT rules. The reason being I'm going to switch from TTS to TTC. I continue to have issues with my turbo engine (sick of constantly working on it and not driving it) so I'm going to switch to an NA engine and run in TTC. The exhaust rules are kind of confusing. Which rules apply and how many points do I take if my exhaust consists of only an aftermarket header and aftermarket muffler? Also does Item 24 in the "No-Points Modifications" include removing the crankshaft dampener and replacing it with a regular pulley or does that fall under Item 9 for engine mods? Thanks.

[IGZOSTD]

Rob

Yes the ex rules are a bit much , a lot of points for the power gains

#9 Pulley +1 , sounds like you want to remove the damper altogether, are you sure you want to do this . Then I'm sure it's a +1 mod unless you use the stock pulley.

#25 Header +2

#26 Pipe +2 -- if you have changed this or any crossover , pipe diameter, which usually happens with a header

#27 Muff +1

#28 Cat +1 stock cat ? if its not stock you win another point

[Rob S.]

Rob

Yes the ex rules are a bit much , a lot of points for the power gains

#9 Pulley +1 , sounds like you want to remove the damper altogether, are you sure you want to do this . Then I'm sure it's a +1 mod unless you use the stock pulley.

#25 Header +2

#26 Pipe +2 -- if you have changed this or any crossover , pipe diameter, which usually happens with a header

#27 Muff +1

#28 Cat +1 stock cat ? if its not stock you win another point

 

Thanks Steve. That's kind of what I figured about the pulley. I'm mostly confused about the difference between #26 and the second portion of #27, "-otherwise, must use 29) +2 if the vehicle has an aftermarket, modified or deleted header/secondary/downpipe/pre-cat section/catalytic converted." They are describing the same thing. Is #26 meant to be pre-cat and #27 post cat? I removed my entire OEM exhaust and only have an aftermarket header and aftermarket muffler; no cat, no resonator and non-OEM pipe diameter. Is it:

 

#25 Header +2

#26 Pre-cat +2

#27 Post cat +2

#28 Cat removal +1

 

If so +7 is a lot of points just for an exhaust considering the +hp gains you get compared to the gains you get from +6 for modified head or +6 of non-OEM camshafts.

[mrc24x]

Hmmm, that's not how I understand it. I think it should be a total of 5 points for his mods. (bold items below) 26) covers all mods downstream of the headers EXCEPT the removal of the Cat(s) +1

 

24) Modification or porting of the exhaust manifold +2

25) Aftermarket or modified header +2

26) Non-OEM or modified exhaust system downstream from the header, exhaust

manifold, or turbo. (does not include catalytic converter removal/upgrade) +2

(Note: Replacement of a failing OEM exhaust system may be permitted without a points

assessment if the OEM definition in 6.5 OEM Definition is strictly adhered to.)

27) Non-OEM or modified exhaust piping, resonators, or mufflers downstream from the OEM catalytic converter(s)

locations(s) +1 (for basic “catback” exhaust or performance mufflers only—otherwise, must use 26) +2 if the vehicle

has an aftermarket, modified, or deleted header/secondary/downpipe/pre-cat section/catalytic converter)

3

28) Removal, upgrade, or modification of catalytic converter(s). +1

[mbuskuhl]

Hmmm, that's not how I understand it. I think it should be a total of 5 points for his mods. (bold items below) 26) covers all mods downstream of the headers EXCEPT the removal of the Cat(s) +1

 

24) Modification or porting of the exhaust manifold +2

25) Aftermarket or modified header +2

26) Non-OEM or modified exhaust system downstream from the header, exhaust

manifold, or turbo. (does not include catalytic converter removal/upgrade) +2

(Note: Replacement of a failing OEM exhaust system may be permitted without a points

assessment if the OEM definition in 6.5 OEM Definition is strictly adhered to.)

27) Non-OEM or modified exhaust piping, resonators, or mufflers downstream from the OEM catalytic converter(s)

locations(s) +1 (for basic “catback” exhaust or performance mufflers only—otherwise, must use 26) +2 if the vehicle

has an aftermarket, modified, or deleted header/secondary/downpipe/pre-cat section/catalytic converter)

3

28) Removal, upgrade, or modification of catalytic converter(s). +1

 

Agreed. I believe 5 points (rather than 6) for a completely aftermarket exhaust setup (header, pipe, muffler).

 

Still add 1 point for the pulley.

 

Total 6 points, not 7 points.

[phoenixR34]

+5 assessment sounds about right.

 

If so +7 is a lot of points just for an exhaust considering the +hp gains you get compared to the gains you get from +6 for modified head or +6 of non-OEM camshafts.

 

Weighing the +5 for exhaust vs. +6 for cams is part of the game.

[Rob S.]

Hmmm, that's not how I understand it. I think it should be a total of 5 points for his mods. (bold items below) 26) covers all mods downstream of the headers EXCEPT the removal of the Cat(s) +1

 

24) Modification or porting of the exhaust manifold +2

25) Aftermarket or modified header +2

26) Non-OEM or modified exhaust system downstream from the header, exhaust

manifold, or turbo. (does not include catalytic converter removal/upgrade) +2

(Note: Replacement of a failing OEM exhaust system may be permitted without a points

assessment if the OEM definition in 6.5 OEM Definition is strictly adhered to.)

27) Non-OEM or modified exhaust piping, resonators, or mufflers downstream from the OEM catalytic converter(s)

locations(s) +1 (for basic “catback” exhaust or performance mufflers only—otherwise, must use 26) +2 if the vehicle

has an aftermarket, modified, or deleted header/secondary/downpipe/pre-cat section/catalytic converter)

3

28) Removal, upgrade, or modification of catalytic converter(s). +1

 

This is how I first understood the exhaust portion of the rules but the differences/similarities between #26 and #27 were confusing me. So the consensus is:

 

#25 Header +2

#26 Complete non-OEM exhaust +2

#28 Cat removal +1

 

Total for the exhaust +5.

 

Greg - thoughts on the above exhaust assessment?? Thanks.

 

 

The crank pulley question is decked....1 point it is.

[TurboShortBus]

I see the exhaust here as +5 as well, based on a discussion in an older thread:

 

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23794&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

(scroll to the bottom of the 2nd page and add the +2 header points)

 

Mark

[IGZOSTD]

Well as you see these rules are horrible . I come up with +2 header, +2 pipe, +1 muff, +1 if you removed the cat.

Anyway I have been at odds with this set of rules for 2 yrs and the just seem to get worse.

That's a lot of points for an exhaust.

Header back should be +4 do anything you want

remove cat +1

muff +1 without a header

all the fancy pipes only matter if you have a serious effort engine build and should be concidered in the header back +4

These rules are absurd as are some of the chassie rules .

I gained almost 20hp removing the cat

gain of 0 by changing the muffler but it sounds like +1

[phoenixR34]

I don't get why it's so hard to understand.. when it comes to exhaust systems (not including the header):

 

Cat-Back is +1.

 

OR

 

Header/turbo back is +2.

 

On most cars, there is a section of exhaust pipe(s) between the header/turbo and the Cat. converter.. whether or not you replaced that, is the difference between the two assessments.

 

For the millionth time, whether or not your car gains or doesn't gain enough to justify the points assessment, isn't NASA's problem. It's called, "reading the rulebook", then determining the best way to use your X number of points. Seems easy enough.

[TurboShortBus]

I don't get why it's so hard to understand.. when it comes to exhaust systems (not including the header):

Cat-Back is +1.

OR

Header/turbo back is +2.

According to the link that I posted a couple of replies ago (bottom of page 1 of this thread), it would be +1 AND +2, for a total of +3, per Greg G's reply on 09 24 2008.

 

Apparently, it really is so hard to understand.

 

Mark

[Greg G.]

I'm not really sure what the problem is here. We have had the SAME exhaust rules essentially since 2006 (that's 4 years in case there is confusion there also )

 

If we didn't have drivers out there trying to bend the rules all of the time, the wording could be more simple. But, when it was more simple, it would be twisted by those that like to play games with words.

 

Again, for the umpteenth time (simple version):

 

Header +2

Any exhaust or muffler changes post non-OEM header +2

Non-OEM or modded Cat. or delete +1

 

Maximum exhaust points including the non-OEM headers is +5

[IGZOSTD]

I agree that its not NASA's problem

The exhaust rule still need a rewrite, they only need to address the muff, the cat and the header, the rest could be assessed if the diameter is changed . The wording seems fit for lawyers

[vpnwiz]

I agree that its not NASA's problem

The exhaust rule still need a rewrite, they only need to address the muff, the cat and the header, the rest could be assessed if the diameter is changed . The wording seems fit for lawyers

Then we get into the issue of how to verify if the diameter is changed. Is someone going to bring an OEM exhaust reference guide to events? How do you protest that?

 

IMO ANY changes is simple and covers it all.

 

I would make this thread a sticky and leave it at that.

 

Patrick

[Rob S.]

I'm not really sure what the problem is here. We have had the SAME exhaust rules essentially since 2006 (that's 4 years in case there is confusion there also )

 

If we didn't have drivers out there trying to bend the rules all of the time, the wording could be more simple. But, when it was more simple, it would be twisted by those that like to play games with words.

 

Again, for the umpteenth time (simple version):

 

Header +2

Any exhaust or muffler changes post non-OEM header +2

Non-OEM or modded Cat. or delete +1

 

Maximum exhaust points including the non-OEM headers is +5

 

Thanks Greg.

[kbrew8991]

I see the balance that we're trying to strike and I'd be happy to try and write something that has the same effect but is more clear to new competitors and old alike - even I got it wrong (take a picture, quick!!)

 

- KB, trying to help, just like he was in the deleted posts

[TurboShortBus]

I agree that its not NASA's problem

The exhaust rule still need a rewrite, they only need to address the muff, the cat and the header, the rest could be assessed if the diameter is changed . The wording seems fit for lawyers

I find it interesting that approximately 15 TT drivers, along with the NASA-Florida TT director, all sat in a room yesterday at Homestead-Miami Speedway during a download session, and we were unable to clearly resolve the question of exhaust modification points.

 

No matter how "easy" some of you might think this is, I believe that this strongly suggests that revisions to these particular rules are in order.

 

Mark

[RodeoFlyer]

....or it just says something about you people in Florida.

[TurboShortBus]

....or it just says something about you people in Florida.

I figured as much from the California people who wrote the ambiguous rules in the first place!

 

Mark

[Shawn M.]

....or it just says something about you people in Florida.

 

 

Beat me to it. They screw up voting, why would they get rules right?

[TurboShortBus]

Beat me to it. They screw up voting, why would they get rules right?

"How do these punch cards work? I'm 90 and I think I just pooped myself..."

 

Mark

Orlando, FL

aka "Dumping Grounds for Your Retired Parents"