any chance for...

[Primo]

...05' season h1 hybrids w/b series motors under 1.8 liters, to be reduced to 2100 pounds w/driver?

[civicrr]

we'll talk about it.....don't expect too many if any changes to H1 rules for 2005.

[Andrie]

I don't agree with the propose rule. Cause it is nearly impossible to get an EG in that range. The rules will then favor EF or CRX. The current rule has the field even anyway. Why change a good formula?

[Paul]

At some point there is going to have to be another class for the various cars that aren't legal in H5-H2 but aren't competitive in H1 as the K series gets sorted... also some engine chassis combo's can't hit the minimum weight as it is.....all IMHO of course!

Paul

[Thawley]

At some point there is going to have to be another class for the various cars that aren't legal in H5-H2 but aren't competitive in H1 as the K series gets sorted... also some engine chassis combo's can't hit the minimum weight as it is.....all IMHO of course!

Paul

 

I agree. Not sure if we need another class, just some expanded rules in H2 & H3.

 

Also be neat to see a place for LS or ZC-motored Civic swaps besides H1. Leave H1 to the K-guys and VTEC worshippers. My Civic was at its very best with a stock LS. Not the fastest, maybe, but the best ballance and most fun to drive.

 

Long live the B18a.

[slammed_93_hatch]

i do agree that alot of swap's wont make your car competitive, b16a, b18a, b18b, ect. But i don't think changes to the rules are nessacary. Nor creating more classes.

 

 

the hybrid class by nature is the "baller" class if you will, AKA hybrid class. This class also by nature is were money shines threw, i know i was in the process of building an H1 car.

 

If you start letting hybrids in to other classes it deafts the purpose, because then those people with hybrids in the none H1 classes will want to be able to upgrade the brakes, and do this and that. Which is not fair at all to the "stock" cars in that class. Now if you going to run a say b16a motor in a 93 civic hatch, your going to want to/almost need to upgrade the brakes. It's just the nature of the beast, Honda's in stock form in accordance with brakes and HP are fairly well balanced and alittle ducting of the brakes wont cure on for a "stock" car.

 

Now you take that 160hp civic that only has brakes for a 130hp motor, your brakes are going to get fried.

 

How do i know? I own a 1993 civic VX and it had an LS (b18b) motor in it, and i could cook the brakes in about 10 minutes, i mean rotors GLOWing cooked.

 

If you want to run the LS motor pic up a integra chassi, they are shown over and over again to be very competitive. IF you want to race a b16a pick up a del sol, or 96+ coupe.

 

IMO if the motor wasn't offered in that chassi your a hybrid and belong in H1. Anything else or allowing hybrids to seep threw to the other classes, is a very bad idea.

 

Again H1 or hybrid cars are the so called "top HC" class. Its expensive and as technology advances old motor will become out dated, and become non-competitive.

 

Again IMO its the nature of the beast.

 

Stable rules are how HC is going to succed as a club racing series. Allowing hybrids into "stock class would be the fall of HC.

[mikeski38]

I totally agree with jimmy.

 

"um...I have a civic vx but I want to run H1, but I don't have the money for a K motor. I need a min weight of 1200 to be competetive. Is that ok?"

 

No thats not OK! If you dont have the money to run H1, run with us in H4. I assure you you'll have a blast! If you just love b18b's, then choose between our wide variety of integra offerings. In H4 we have you covered. From b18's to d15's, vtec or non-vtec, we have it all. Just choose your beast and come out and have fun.

[Primo]

less displacement = less tq.

 

cheaper motor swaps = more potential participants = growing the field (not just h4).

 

there are lots of potential racers out there, who already have a smaller displacement hybrid swap in their cars...all they'd have to do is install a cage...

as opposed to having buy either a 2.0 swap or a 1.8 swap or going back to stock, yet being forced to spend money on the stocker to make it competitive with everyone else ("IT" gods).

 

the HC rules themselves say in section 6.0...

 

Note: since this is a new series vehicle weights may be adjusted to equalize fairness in class

 

i think scca's honda cup allows for less weight for motors smaller than 1.8 liters.

 

every competitor in each of the classes should have some chance at winning imho.

 

p.s. not a life or death issue lol.

Edited November 17, 2004 by Guest

[Paul]

Mike,

I don't think it's a case of the "I wants" in my case....

 

I thought the "original intent" for H1 was to give guys who already had swaps a place to race other than SCCA because they didn't have a class....now it has become a $$$ class and guys are biulding cars specifically for H1.

Great!!!

 

We all know the mo money = fast and there is always someone with mo money! lol..

 

But I also think as more cars are being biult specifically towards the upper end of H1 then there will be a group of cars that won't be competitive but yet don't belong in H5-H2.

I think it would be better for HC growth wise to be inclusive rather than doing the same thing SCCA "orginally" did and saying "this is the way that it is".

 

All that would need to be done would have H1 and H1x based on weights and known average WHP for the various motors or say...

 

H1x = k and franks

H1 = d series, b series

weight adjustments could be worked out if needed

 

Lets see a biult K series- H1x

I recently read made 240WHP at 2350lbs.... 9.79

 

biult 1.8ltr (Not a hybrid BTW) 205WHP at 2450lbs in H1..... 11.95

 

I really don't see how this would effect anyone in a bad way?

 

It might get more of the guys with normal B swaps out to races then.....I think that would be a good thing.

 

I'm just thowing this out there for discussion good or bad......

 

From what I have read about NASA the reason for it's fantastic growth was it ability to change and niche marketing.....when compared to the SCCA.

 

Paul

[BrianZ]

I really don't see how this would effect anyone in a bad way?

 

I think Honda challenge has enough classes.. I think at this stage in HC's life you need to start to stabilize the rules.. Minor adjustments are expected. A whole new class is just not needed IMO. BEFORE you start to race you need to figure out what class you want to run. THEN build a car for that class..

[mikeski38]

Actually, the original intent of H1 was to give hybrid cars a chance to compete with fast OE hondas, like S2000's and NSX's.

 

More classes is certianly not the answer since the would lead to less competition and the eventual dimise of HC. And there is no way you could make a B18b car light enough to compete with B18c or K powered cars. Why not add weight to b18b swaps and allow them to run in H4? We already have that powerplant in H4 running at around 2500 lbs. Maybe an eg or crx with a b18b could run H4 at 2550 lbs.

 

Everyone who has posted in favor of new HC classes seems to be under the impression that you have to be winning to have fun. If there as many people out there with these less powerful swaps as you claim, just have them all run H1 with the current rules and let the chips fall. No you won't beat a k motor or a well built b18c, but you will be racing with the other b18b's and b16's and having a great time.

 

Don't discount the potential of an H4 car, my little junk yard d16y8 has been known to finish in front of b16a's and b18c's.

 

I have been running HC for two years and I have yet to win a race, but there is no other place I would consider running. We have a great formula that does not need to be mettled with.

[mikeski38]

I really don't see how this would effect anyone in a bad way?

 

I think Honda challenge has enough classes.. I think at this stage in HC's life you need to start to stabilize the rules.. Minor adjustments are expected. A whole new class is just not needed IMO. BEFORE you start to race you need to figure out what class you want to run. THEN build a car for that class..

 

Totally agree.

[Paul]

"I think there are enough classes"

 

Paul

[Andrie]

Wow, people have short memory. I believe it was Jonathan Merris who spank everyone with quite a big margin in his overweight B16A motor!

[civicrr]

Good discussion going on here guys. IMO, everyone here wants to see growth in HC & good competion within the respective classes. I am happy to see this enthusiasm.

 

The Rules Committee does too. It is a balancing act to adjust cars and/or car/engine combos. As we grow, there will continue to be adjustments made for class parity. Unfortunately, it will be virtually impossible to make all the various swaps competitive. eg a Civic with a ZC just ain't gonna cut it in H1.

[slammed_93_hatch]

 

All that would need to be done would have H1 and H1x based on weights and known average WHP for the various motors or say...

 

H1x = k and franks

H1 = d series, b series

weight adjustments could be worked out if needed

 

Lets see a biult K series- H1x

I recently read made 240WHP at 2350lbs.... 9.79

 

biult 1.8ltr (Not a hybrid BTW) 205WHP at 2450lbs in H1..... 11.95.

 

Paul

 

ok first off frankenstin motor's are better then b18c, in fact they are worse. The motor's will fail, as we have seen.

 

Secondly its fairly easy to make over 220whp with a STOCK JDM ITR block, seen it done many times. Add some CTR piston woop there goes the compression and then some good cams and you could hit soldly above that.

 

Now if the Kseries people may be able to hit those marks but for how long and how reliable i think most people well agree, that take a stock Ksereis over its rev limiter much is not the best thing to do for it to hae a long life.

 

3rd- Who has actually ever FULLY developed an B16 under HC rules? I don't know of anyone, put it could have been done. CTR pistons in a b16a block will give you some really really good high compression ratio, throw on some good cams, IE toda VTEC killers, or something like that, and you can take the motor up WAY high into the revsm, and make power, and you have 100 less lbs to carry around.

 

People have said the same thing aout the H22a that is "can't be competitive" but it has shown it can be.

[Primo]

its fairly easy to make over 220whp with a STOCK JDM ITR block, seen it done many times. Add some CTR piston woop there goes the compression and then some good cams and you could hit soldly above that.

 

CTR pistons in a b16a block will give you some really really good high compression ratio, throw on some good cams, IE toda VTEC killers, or something like that, and you can take the motor up WAY high into the revsm, and make power, and you have 100 less lbs to carry around

 

how can the smaller motors be competitive (both b series motors can use all of those mods you listed), when the larger b series motor will make more power and tq (yet the smaller setup has to weigh the same)?

 

who is going to choose the smaller displacement motor, after reading (and understanding) the rules?

 

does not a rule like this help take away from the money wins all scenarios?

 

i just want to understand it, not ruin it for everyone.

(forget about adding new classes, that is not what i'm driving at).

 

which motors take first thru third places consistantly in all of the past races, since the minimum weight rule has gone into effect?

 

i'm going to race next year in so cal, one way or the other.

[Thawley]

If the driving principles behind HC are to provide close competitive racing with reliable cars at a reasonable cost, then why not bend over backwards to include "mid-pack" motors in hybrid cars? The reasons given to me for NOT allowing aftermarket pistons cranks and rods is to KEEP COSTS DOWN. If that is the case then why the hell not find a better way for the cheaper "mid-pack" motors to run in whatever chassis is affordable?

 

Between 88-91 there were just just under a million EF Civics and CRXs built for North America alone. The B18a and B18b were offered in every Integra except GSR and Type-R for more than a decade. These cars and engines (along with the ZC) are being sold for SCRAP in many auto recycling yards across the country. Meanwhile, the JDM importers have a seller's market and command premium prices on every competetive H1 engine/head available except the S2000. And those aren't cheap either.

 

So what are we here for guys? Are we more interested in standing firm and saying "the rules are set; go buy different car or engine if you don't like it"? Or are we really interested in GROWING the series and making it more affordable?

 

I can see why Ryan, Mike and Jerry are very reluctant to do anything to exclude or reduce the competitiveness of the current customers. I agree that is not the way to go. Additionally, they don't want a civil war with the east coast guys who DO have H2 and H3 cars in their fields. But really, how much trouble would it be to consider a "pilot program" of LS swap or weird motor swap rules that could attract NEW racers to NASA and HC?

 

Are we really talking about promoting an affordable and competitive series beyond H4? Or are we just talking about not upsetting the apple cart because change requires some effort? I will happily work alone or with others to write a formal rules proposal. I will happily run my car in LS-swap trim all of next season at any weight over 2200 if it could used as a baseline. And, I would also be willing to let someone like Ryan or Bernardo drive it to help establish and cement that baseline.

 

Let's stop the theoretical bickering and do something.

 

 

Respectfully and ready to serve,

[slammed_93_hatch]

IMO if you allow hybrid cars into non hybrid classes, you will attract some new competition, but you will loose alot more then you will gain.

 

Im all for letting HC grow and doing anything i can to help it. But im not willing to sacrafic the racers that are already there racing.

 

And again say we do let let hybrid cars into a non hybrid class, everything goes fine, for a short while. then it become obvious that the stock brakes on these cars CAN NOT handle that extra HP, so then those people will want to be able to upgrade brakes, reasonably so, i wouldn't want to run out of breaks while out there racing. So then we give them brakes, well then whats the point of running the stock motor, these guy will be able to out brake them, so there goes the stock class.

 

The attractive thing about HC is the rules are cut and dry. Which is why alot of poeple like it. If you start letting hybrids into this non hybrid classes, the rules are going to start getting very complex. And then special allowence could be made and then you end up with some stipulation like in USTTC wear if you get permission from the series director you can do something else, which IMO is bad because its an unfair playing flied.

 

The people who wrote the HC rules are still around, and this conversasion has came up befor and i can think of 2 that will say and have said H1 is for Hybrids PERIOD.

 

Now maybe an weight adjustment for the b16 should be in place, but i think droping the weight is going to exclude more cars then it will include. And i also think that if something need to be done in the hybrid class some one should look at trying to make the D series more competitive.

 

Some people have said that the current weights in H1 are two low and need to be raised, because as one of lepper's guys put it, "they almost dictate a hatch with a K or B series swap.". Now this might be true but again untill some one goes out and makes an attempt with something else, i don't think much should be done.

 

Same thing was said about the S2k and it not being able to keep up. Will there is a succesfull MW s2k, and s2k on the east coast that has DOMINATED, and 2 on the west coast that have had strong showings.

 

Now some of these drivers still say that they are at a disadvantage but when the cars are out there taking pole positions and podium finish the majority of the time, ill disagree again and again and again.

 

Wegiht changes in H1 needed? maybe so, but if thats done your going to upset a big BALANCE that is already in place. The civic's with B's and K's are struggeling to fight with the S2k, So if you give them more weight, then they will be at a dissatvantage. and the S2k will be walking away, then some would say ok add weight to the S2k, then your going to have the guys who run S2k's even more pissed because as of right now there on the limit's of there brakes, throw more weight on top of that, and it probably will send them over the edge.

 

So lets say drop the weight of B16 hybrids and D series hybrids while were at it, well you get the weights any lower and your pretty much going to be pin'd into running an EF chassi, with light weight parts gallor.

 

Then your going to get guys in with B16's and D series hybrid'd 92-00 civic's (excluding SI). Who will complain that it is IMPOSSBlE for them to make weight.

 

The next logical progression would be to go to the idea that thawley pressented allowing Hybrid cars in non hybrid classes, so that we can capture the people who want to run a B16a or LS motor or ZC motor in there non complint chassi. Well im willing to bet you money that if you do that you will LOOSE more compititors then you will gain.

 

I just took you threw full loop, of the way i see things going if the rules are changed as suggested. And what was the purpose of this whole rules change movement? To get MORE competitiors and to be more appling, when in the end you lost compititors.

 

Of course this is all just speculation. But if we loose the EC, MW and SE hc guys well we have lost a HUGE junk of the HC base.

[Andrie]

 

which motors take first thru third places consistantly in all of the past races, since the minimum weight rule has gone into effect?

 

i'm going to race next year in so cal, one way or the other.

 

In every race Jonathan Merris raced, he was always a front runner contender. In fact almost all qualifying he has been the top dog. Too bad he had streak of bad luck during the races. The one he didn't he dominated.

 

The B16 is very capable. We just opted to use K20 or bigger motor to cover our lack of talent

[Primo]

which motors take first thru third places consistantly in all of the past races, since the minimum weight rule has gone into effect?

 

In every race Jonathan Merris raced, he was always a front runner contender. In fact almost all qualifying he has been the top dog. Too bad he had streak of bad luck during the races. The one he didn't he dominated.

 

so j. merris is a nor cal HC regular?

down here in so cal, the top 3 is always either k20a or b18c.

 

i can't seem to find the nor cal 2004 season final point standings page (only the LA one).

of the top 3 nor cal HC points leaders, which motors did they use?

 

andrie...you seem to be overly worried about the lesser displacement motors...you have a k20a racecar...relax bro lol.

[Andrie]

so j. merris is a nor cal HC regular?

down here in so cal, the top 3 is always either k20a or b18c.

 

i can't seem to find the nor cal 2004 season final point standings page (only the LA one).

of the top 3 nor cal HC points leaders, which motors did they use?

 

andrie...you seem to be overly worried about the lesser displacement motors...you have a k20a racecar...relax bro lol.

 

he resides in Norcal but I believe he done mostly SoCal races up to mid season.

 

I'm not worried. I'm just stating the fact that the rules are good the way it is. Anybody has a chance on winning.

 

And what is the reason you're fighting hard for B16? So it has the best chance of winning?

[Primo]

And what is the reason you're fighting hard for B16? So it has the best chance of winning?

 

for one it's cheaper, and i think a lot of people can appreciate it's cost.

1.8 swaps are like 4K (itr swap in socal is 5K), k20 is like 5K-6K, 1.6 is like $1-2,500!

 

anything that can help rein in the cost of h1 should be looked into if it does not hurt or hinder anyone.

 

another example is what the endless eg (b18c) did to a k20 in the hands of a very good and experienced driver!

now imagine if you only had a b16a bruddah...no chance.

(i saw the video and what he'd do on the straights, even off line!)

 

if this rule suggestion is ignored, it's ok.

i tried to give some input into something that i deeply care about.

i'll still throw my hat into your great organization and culture.

 

i just think that it generate more interest in h1, and give lesser swap drivers a glimmer of getting on the podium.

 

not the best chance of winning...simply a chance.

[Andrie]

Paul,

 

as far as chances, Jon Merris already shown the potential of B16A. Doesn't help to argue your case when Jon did the whooping against K20A (a built one at that) and B20 so forth. My point is simply that the B16A is already competitive at this point. Lowering the weight will only make it advantageous compare to others. Which will start the trend of overyone moving to B16. As far as cost, a build B16 is not that cheap anyway. Reliability will be sacrificed at that power level.

 

The rules are fine the way it is. Although I like to see them allowing big brakes for S2K and NSX for additional weight penalty. Maybe 75 lbs?

[Thawley]

http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=20753#20753