any chance for...

[civicrr]

if this rule suggestion is ignored, it's ok.

 

It hasn't been ignored. None of the suggestions are. Just realize that we, the rules committee, must look @ the short & long term impact that rules make. Even small adjustments can lead to a huge ripple downstream.

 

Some things won't happen because they will raise cost too much. Some things won't happen because they will be too hard to enforce. Some things won't happen because they go against the original intent of HC.

[Primo]

It hasn't been ignored. None of the suggestions are.

thank you sir.

 

and here are the top 3 season point leader's engine info that i was looking for...

 

nor cal

andrie B18C5/K20A

tom H22

clyde C18C5

 

so cal

varo K20A

dennis B18C5

tsuyoshi B18C5

 

[civicrr]

Here is something that should be noted about those results.

 

In NorCal, Andre ran a bone stock ITR motor for most of the season.

 

IIRC, Dennis was running a stock ITR motor too.

 

What you should infer from that it that a B16 built to the limits (of HC rules) should have a good chance against the 'field'. Will it be reliable? Well, consider this, the B16 has the best rod to stroke of any Honda motor!

[Andrie]

hey, my K20R is bone stock too

[Andrie]

It hasn't been ignored. None of the suggestions are.

thank you sir.

 

and here are the top 3 season point leader's engine info that i was looking for...

 

nor cal

andrie B18C5/K20A

tom H22

clyde C18C5

 

so cal

varo K20A

dennis B18C5

tsuyoshi B18C5

 

 

This top 3 leaders can be misleading into what kind of engine can win. LIke I mentioned before, Merris was top runner, but he only compete in about half the season. Not including his string of bad luck during the race.

 

We can also see from the SoCal racers, that the top 3 point leaders are the one that don' thave engine problem all year.

[Primo]

It hasn't been ignored. None of the suggestions are.

thank you sir.

 

and here are the top 3 season point leader's engine info that i was looking for...

 

nor cal

andrie B18C5/K20A

tom H22

clyde C18C5

 

so cal

varo K20A

dennis B18C5

tsuyoshi B18C5

 

 

This top 3 leaders can be misleading into what kind of engine can win. LIke I mentioned before, Merris was top runner, but he only compete in about half the season. Not including his string of bad luck during the race.

 

We can also see from the SoCal racers, that the top 3 point leaders are the one that don' thave engine problem all year.

 

i dunno about nor cal, but here is the so cal list expanded a little more (season positions/top 1-9)...

 

Varo Akopyan - 2.0

Dennis Caco - 1.8

Tsuyoshi Higashi - 1.8

Double R Racing - 1.8

Derek Stevens - 2.0

Andy Hope - 1.8

David Karner - 2.0

Glen Kawano - 1.8

Andrie Hartanto - 1.8/2.0

[drierson]

As a H2 competitor I would not mind if non-competitive H1 hybrids were allowed in our class. Limit the engine prep to the same allowed in H2-H5 and adjust the weights according to engine, like in H1, and I am sure a good compromise could be made.

 

A B16 VTEC Civic SI is in H3 at 2475. Why not allow A B16 VTEC hybrid in H2 at 2350? This would also H3 cars with B16 VTEC to move up a class by getting rid of some of the ballast. Tom Taylor here in the Texas region is always the only car in H3. He runs 75 pounds of ballast in his '99 Civic Si to get up to the minimum H3 weight. It would be neat if he could shed his ballast and move up a class so he could have some competition in H2.

[PSUCRX]

As a H2 competitor I would not mind if non-competitive H1 hybrids were allowed in our class. Limit the engine prep to the same allowed in H2-H5 and adjust the weights according to engine, like in H1, and I am sure a good compromise could be made.

 

A B16 VTEC Civic SI is in H3 at 2475. Why not allow A B16 VTEC hybrid in H2 at 2350? This would also H3 cars with B16 VTEC to move up a class by getting rid of some of the ballast. Tom Taylor here in the Texas region is always the only car in H3. He runs 75 pounds of ballast in his '99 Civic Si to get up to the minimum H3 weight. It would be neat if he could shed his ballast and move up a class so he could have some competition in H2.

 

I totally agree, I have a CRX w/ a B16, I'll shed my CTR cams gladly(shit it'll help pay for my cage) and run with the H2 guys. There was 1 here, but he has recently stepped down. This kind of an option would help build the series, even if it was only a temporary exception. Because those that want to get into racing can do it inexpensively(i.e. already have a non-competitive swapped car) can jump out and race without much prep other than safety.

 

By temporary I mean that as the series grows, racers will, a) want to go faster, or b) start making more money and thus will be able to afford faster cars, this will bump them to H1 or they can move to whatever class they want to build a car for, by this time they will have experience and everyone here knows I'm sure, that there is not substitute for seat time, and without a bunch of money tied up in a car, this will make it easier for new racers to afford it.

 

I still want an amendment to allow cars prepped to JDM SiR(EF and EG) standards

 

That's my .02

[Primo]

As a H2 competitor I would not mind if non-competitive H1 hybrids were allowed in our class.

 

I totally agree, I have a CRX w/ a B16, I'll shed my CTR cams gladly(shoo-shiddily-diddily it'll help pay for my cage) and run with the H2 guys.

 

all the rule makers would have to do is drop 100lbs. off the b16a equipped car, and it would have a better chance at being competitive.

no need to mix any classes.

 

you would not have to lose the ctr cams then psucrx!

 

i can't see how this is a bad idea at all.

[PSUCRX]

You've got a point. I could also put some CTR pistons to bump up the compression as well. I agree this COULD make my car competitive...now if I could only drive

[Andrie]

As a H2 competitor I would not mind if non-competitive H1 hybrids were allowed in our class.

 

I totally agree, I have a CRX w/ a B16, I'll shed my CTR cams gladly(shoo-shiddily-diddily it'll help pay for my cage) and run with the H2 guys.

 

all the rule makers would have to do is drop 100lbs. off the b16a equipped car, and it would have a better chance at being competitive.

no need to mix any classes.

 

you would not have to lose the ctr cams then psucrx!

 

i can't see how this is a bad idea at all.

 

how bout the B16B then? I'm still against lowering any weight on B16A cars. And the proposal of 100 lbs is quite bold. This will make B16A the fastest car out there!

[Primo]

how bout the B16B then? I'm still against lowering any weight on B16A cars. And the proposal of 100 lbs is quite bold. This will make B16A the fastest car out there!

 

like i said...05' season h1 hybrids w/b series motors under 1.8 liters, to be reduced to 2100 pounds w/driver...anything under 1.8.

 

i do not think they will dominate as you might think sir, but they will have a better chance...and its cheaper!

i dont want to see wchc become WCTC!

the 1.8 ITR motor is still pretty godly...and it's currently dominating.

if someone wants to run a b16b, why not?

as long as the motor is less than 1.8 i dont see why not.

 

just give me fair warning so i can get my act together.

i have a chassis thats ready, just not a motor.

 

rewards weight for winning is something to be looked at also.

[Andrie]

how bout the B16B then? I'm still against lowering any weight on B16A cars. And the proposal of 100 lbs is quite bold. This will make B16A the fastest car out there!

 

like i said...05' season h1 hybrids w/b series motors under 1.8 liters, to be reduced to 2100 pounds w/driver.

 

i do not think they will dominate as you might think sir, but they will have a better chance...and its cheaper!

i dont want to see wchc become WCTC!

the 1.8 ITR motor is still pretty godly...and it's currently dominating.

if someone wants to run a b16b, why not?

as long as the motor is less than 1.8 i dont see why not.

 

just give me fair warning so i can get my act together.

 

rewards weight for winning is something to be looked at also.

i have a chassis thats ready, just not a motor.

 

I don't want to see WCHC to become WCTC either. But your proposal will most certainly make B16A the dominant motor. Why don't you think so? You have concrete evidence? 2100 lbs is very light for a fully built B16A. Why don't try to race with us for a few before fighting for a cause? Build your B16A come race with us. If you think Jon Merris spanking at BW was pure luck, you can probably tell us something we don't know.

 

Sure the B16A is cheaper. But if cheap is all you're looking for, why not race in H4?

[PSUCRX]

I think it's the opportunity costs. I have considered H4 and I'm sure I would have a blast. But this would mean pulling my B16, sourcing a D16A6 and then still having to rebuild when I already have a motor I'm comfortable with!

 

I do agree w/ the statement, that we should go race w/ what we've got and THEN start lobbying for this. But, at the same time, I'd be willing to jump in sooner if I knew I could be competitive w/ where I'm at right now. Granted, I don't have enough track time to feel comfortable jumping to HC just yet, but the thought of being competitive with the car I've got would entice me to work a lot harder at refining my skills and preparing to race.

 

Thanks to all Andrie and the other HC people who are actually taking all of these discussions into account. I'm not going to get butt-hurt if it doesn't happen, we're merely discussing...which is what this board is for right?

[Primo]

I don't want to see WCHC to become WCTC either. But your proposal will most certainly make B16A the dominant motor. Why don't you think so? You have concrete evidence? 2100 lbs is very light for a fully built B16A. Why don't try to race with us for a few before fighting for a cause? Build your B16A come race with us. If you think Jon Merris spanking at BW was pure luck, you can probably tell us something we don't know.

 

i dont think it will dominate.

there were zero motors w/less than 1.8 in the top 9 in the 04 season (so cal), surely that is some evidence.

 

not all of us have a budget like yours andrie...not everyone will be able to "fully build" it.

you have run the most expensive swaps out there to date, and you win or finish top 3 normally.

not everyone can just run out and pick up a $4,900 swap (itr), then get toda b's and have it tuned. not to mention a $6,000.00 k20a swap.

 

the rule makers are not stupid, and if a rule change like this messes everything up, they'll nip in in the bud.

what wrong with trying it?

 

smaller displacement motors lack the means to make compression like the 1.8, and you told me yourself as to why it wont rev as high as a 1.8.

 

i think will bring new people in as there wont be the large buy in, and new participants wont have the seat time that you already do.

 

you win a lot, or finish high in the standings every time.

why do you care/worry so much?

[PSUCRX]

whoa, hold up a sec...I don't agree that 1.8 litre VTEC motors can rev higher, if anything, the B16 will rev higher. The B16 is almost perfectly square, meaning the stroke is almost the same as the bore. This translates to a VERY well balanced motor. What the 1.8 litre motors do have that the B16's don't, is torque. Pulling out of a corner a 1.8 will almost ALWAYS take a 1.6, if the motors are similarily built and entry speed is essentially the same.

 

Don't get me wrong, I want this to happen, even if I don't have the means to jump in just yet. Nevertheless, I am anxious to see how it pans out, and that's a BIG IF.

[civicrr]

whoa, hold up a sec...I don't agree that 1.8 litre VTEC motors can rev higher, if anything, the B16 will rev higher. The B16 is almost perfectly square, meaning the stroke is almost the same as the bore. This translates to a VERY well balanced motor. What the 1.8 litre motors do have that the B16's don't, is torque.

 

what he said.

[Andrie]

i dont think it will dominate.

there were zero motors w/less than 1.8 in the top 9 in the 04 season (so cal), surely that is some evidence.

 

The championship point is rarely a fair assesment on what particular engine can do. Like I said before, the only reason why Merris name is not there because he only compete half of the season. And the fact that he ran into few of bad luck. To do a fair comparison, compare only when he compete as you can't compare B16 to B18 when there is no B16 competing, right?

 

not all of us have a budget like yours andrie...not everyone will be able to "fully build" it.

you have run the most expensive swaps out there to date, and you win or finish top 3 normally.

not everyone can just run out and pick up a $4,900 swap (itr), then get toda b's and have it tuned. not to mention a $6,000.00 k20a swap.

 

Please don't make an assumption on my financial situation when you have no knowledge about it. To say I have the most expensive swap out to date is not necessarilly true. Special Projects built K20A came to mind. Jon Merris built B16A is definitely close.

 

Of course we like to keep the cost down. But the spirit of the rule is to allow hybrid and some modifications, for those who likes to tinker with the car. If all you worried is cost, and don't want to build the car to max rule potential, why not run in H4? You are trying to justify running a B16A with your budget and be competitive. What if there are more like Merris fully built B16A? There is always someone else willing to spend more money than you. You have to see the big picture and take into account those people that will maximize the rule.

 

Talking about expensive, you're one to talk with fully built JUN motor in your ITR.

 

the rule makers are not stupid, and if a rule change like this messes everything up, they'll nip in in the bud.

what wrong with trying it?

 

It is always harder to take something out than to give something in.

 

smaller displacement motors lack the means to make compression like the 1.8, and you told me yourself as to why it wont rev as high as a 1.8.

 

I'm not an expert in engine building so I won't even attempt to argue on this point.

 

i think will bring new people in as there wont be the large buy in, and new participants wont have the seat time that you already do.

 

This is hardly a justification. The fact that others doesn't have seat time, less experience, or less talented, etc, has nothing to do with the rules. You want to slow people down or give allowance to newbie just because of that? What next, the back markers are allowed to built their bottom end with aftermarket products?

 

you win a lot, or finish high in the standings every time.

why do you care/worry so much?

When racing is determine by skill, I'm all for it. When someone has a clear unfair advantage, we might as well sleep in late and watch mud wrestling.

[Primo]

To do a fair comparison, compare only when he compete as you can't compare B16 to B18 when there is no B16 competing, right?

 

correct, it's hard to make any comparison at all, when everyone knows that it's a handicap to run a smaller motor given the current ruleset.

i'd bet that everyone running in the series would like to win. who would not?

if you raced for the simple joy of racing, you would not build your car to the limit of the rules, given a choice.

 

Of course we like to keep the cost down. But the spirit of the rule is to allow hybrid and some modifications, for those who likes to tinker with the car. If all you worried is cost, and don't want to build the car to max rule potential, why not run in H4? You are trying to justify running a B16A with your budget and be competitive.

 

i'm not looking at it from just my point of view, like some of us are (i'm not on top looking down at the others).

i'm looking at it from the standpoint that if it's cheaper, more people will want to join in. many folks out there have hybrids on the street.

all they would have to do is cage it. for your h4 suggestion to work, they'd have to switch their motor back to stock at greater expense.

 

i would think the series was created to give all of the honda crowd, who is mostly comprised of motor swap people, a place to come race (swap = h1).

as opposed as a place you can come race, but you are not going to ever win unless you use formula "X".

 

Talking about expensive, you're one to talk with fully built JUN motor in your ITR.

 

i'm not using it to compete in the series mr. nsx.

 

The fact that others doesn't have seat time, less experience, or less talented, etc, has nothing to do with the rules. You want to slow people down or give allowance to newbie just because of that? What next, the back markers are allowed to built their bottom end with aftermarket products?

 

many professional series (like world challenge) impose a rewards weight system, whereby weight is added on with each win or top whatever finish.

why is it do you think that these series do that? because they favor the newbie?

absolutely not. they do it so the same damn people don't win all the time, and it's generally those people with unlimited budget. is this not grass roots club racing?

in fact, world challenge DOES allow the backmarkers to build the motor beyond the ruleset, to keep racing close.

 

i find it dubious that someone that wins almost all the time, is trying to keep the rules from evolving, so that he or she may stay on top imho.

 

When racing is determine by skill, I'm all for it.

me too! from the looks of it, its money that's been winning, and not skill. everyone should have some chance of winning it all and if it's not happening, the horizons need to be opened up. even f1 realizes this.

 

it's so funny. you just told me that if the rules were to limit the mods on a k20, you are going back to b series/itr.

surely skill would let you prevail in the heavier car!

 

riddle me this andrie, there are tons of people who read this cool forum.

why is it you are the only one that is against this suggestion?

how about we here from some others, and not just you.

 

all we are hearing is meris this and meris that, and how you just know in your heart of hearts that it's unfair (without even trying it).

 

i'm done here, unless someone else has a point or counter point.

 

happy turkey day!

[Andrie]

correct, it's hard to make any comparison at all, when everyone knows that it's a handicap to run a smaller motor given the current ruleset.

i'd bet that everyone running in the series would like to win. who would not?

if you raced for the simple joy of racing, you would not build your car to the limit of the rules, given a choice.

 

 

point taken.

it is very hard to equalize every cars. But your current propoal of 100 lbs is too much. In any case, you said to me you already have a K20A witing to get into the car.

 

i'm not looking at it from just my point of view, like some of us are (i'm not on top looking down at the others).

i'm looking at it from the standpoint that if it's cheaper, more people will want to join in. many folks out there have hybrids on the street.

all they would have to do is cage it. for your h4 suggestion to work, they'd have to switch their motor back to stock at greater expense.

 

i would think the series was created to give all of the honda crowd, who is mostly comprised of motor swap people, a place to come race (swap = h1).

as opposed as a place you can come race, but you are not going to ever win unless you use formula "X".

 

I faced the same dilemma with the EG. Already had the swap, just put the cage to go racing. Now that I'm racing, I can see why the rules were set the way they are.

 

With a risk of opening a can of worms, I'm more onto allowing same engine in different chassis with min weight. For instance, a 99 Civic Si would be in H3 with specific min weight. I'm more inclined to allow a hybrid with B16A to race in H3 with those specific min weight. This way, the modification is also in check.

 

My only concern is if the B16A swap build at current H1 rules, it is already competitive.

 

i'm not using it to compete in the series mr. nsx.

I don't own an NSX. A friend of mine does.

 

many professional series (like world challenge) impose a rewards weight system, whereby weight is added on with each win or top whatever finish.

why is it do you think that these series do that? because they favor the newbie?

absolutely not. they do it so the same damn people don't win all the time, and it's generally those people with unlimited budget. is this not grass roots club racing?

in fact, world challenge DOES allow the backmarkers to build the motor beyond the ruleset, to keep racing close.

 

World Challenge doesn't allow the backmarkers to build the motor beyond the ruleset. But they do make adjustment everytime.

 

I would like to see reward system. That would be interesting.

 

i find it dubious that someone that wins almost all the time, is trying to keep the rules from evolving, so that he or she may stay on top imho.

 

I don't know if you are refering to me or not. I certainly don't win all the time. However, like you said, everyone wants to win. I certainly have no problem seeing you fighting for your cause. Heck, I'm fighting for mine too.

 

That being said, I don't try to keep the rules from evolving. It is merely my HUMBLE OPINION that the B16A is fine the way it is.

 

me too! from the looks of it, its money that's been winning, and not skill. everyone should have some chance of winning it all and if it's not happening, the horizons need to be opened up. even f1 realizes this.

 

We both agree that everyone should have the same chance of winning. My point is that if you lower the min weight of the B16A, not everyone has the same chance of winning. The B16A will have the advantage!

 

it's so funny. you just told me that if the rules were to limit the mods on a k20, you are going back to b series/itr.

Don't twist my word. I never said that.

 

What I said was:

"I'm looking for monoball kit. I can make my own but it is a pain. Want to see if there are options for me out there. It is off season and all. And with the rumor that the new rules won't allow any mods on K motor, I might as well work on the suspension"

 

and

 

"well, your request of B16 has lower weight might materialize. If they do that, I might as well switch back to B series. Although the K series is an awesome engine and I would hate it to take a step backward."

 

Check your PM record and verify. Totally two different statement. You mixed and match it.

 

surely skill would let you prevail in the heavier car!

Primo, we are having a great discussion. please stop taking cheap shots.

 

riddle me this andrie, there are tons of people who read this cool forum.

why is it you are the only one that is against this suggestion?

how about we here from some others, and not just you.

Maybe because I'm the only one that see this? Like I said everyone had short memory.

 

all we are hearing is meris this and meris that, and how you just know in your heart of hearts that it's unfair (without even trying it).

I'm not sure what you mean. Somebody already tried the B16A and it was very competitive! In fact he won!

 

happy turkey day!

same to you

Edited November 25, 2004 by Guest

[PSUCRX]

I'm more inclined to make a Hybrid with a stock B16 legal in H3, I'm all for that 100%. That's actually what I wanted to do. I'm sorry Paul but I totally agree w/ the consensus from the H1 camp, if you're in H1, it's an H1 car, H1 rules apply. Now, if a BASIC Hybrid such as an EG or EF w/ a STOCK B16 was allowed in H3 w/ a min. weight, then I would jump in 100%.

 

This discussion rocks by the way.

[#19crxHC]

Ok here is my input on this subject. When I bought my CRX there was no weight limit for H1 hybrids, so I went ahead and bought a b16a thinking it would be competitive. Andy Hope ran the same sort of set up to win the 2003 HC championship, so I thought this would be a good starting point, but then the rules changed. The b16a just was not competitive @ 2200lb, so I had to step up and buy a b18c5. b18c5 engine stock is pretty competitive (by the way since no one, but John and I should up for the H1 race at Thill and I won both day I came in 2nd in the championship). Tom L only ran USTCC and played it safe to lock up the championship (congratulations to Tom). I wouldn’t mind seeing the weight dropped down to 2100lbs, but I think that awards weight is a better idea. I’m up for making this class as equal as possible so that the best driver and car wins the race, but first we need more people racing in Nor Cal. I would like to see H1 become more affordable to run, but the fact is that it is very expensive class to run and that includes paying for engines/swaps that cost $4500. We all need to promote this series and get more sponsor and contingency sponsors coming to support Honda challenge so that it could help cut back on costs.

[mikeski38]

My interpretation of H1 is to create a class where car builders can truly exhibit their talents to the rest of the class and any fans the series may have.

 

H1 is not a class that requires a lot of regulation by rules. In fact it is not fasater cars that sets H1 apart from the rest of honda challenge, H1 is unique because it is a class that is not built around Improved touring style rules. The rest of HC requires that we run stock parts only. H1 has no such rule. H1 has a completely different formula it operates with and over regulation will kill H1.

 

If you can't afford an engine that will make you competetive in H1, don't ask for rule changes so your underpowered B16 can keep up with a K20, that will ruin H1. IMO, a b16 shouldn't be allowed to keep up with a K20, why should it? It is an old and outdated honda engine. Let the new stuff that is superior dominate like it should. If you cant afford to keep up with the times, get out of the way and run H2-H5, or just go out an not win in H1, club racing is not all about winning.

[Paul]

UUUHH....

You guys keep refering to "Paul" as taking cheap shots, ect....

but I'm PAUL I use my name when I posted in this thread as always when I post.

I think you guys are refering to someone else...

 

Andrie the quotes you posted were from Primo ....please clarify cause I don't take cheap shots!

 

Thanks,

Paul Bloomberg

#51 ITR

Phoenix, Az

[PSUCRX]

Don't worry Paul, no one thought it was you...at least I knew they were talking about Primo. And also, Mikeski, I very much disagree with you on the fact that the B-series are outdated. Explain this to me HOW? They still use Multi-Port fuel injection, and to be honest, I think they're still the easiest to work on and most reliable motors ever made.