any chance for...

[Andrie]

UUUHH....

You guys keep refering to "Paul" as taking cheap shots, ect....

but I'm PAUL I use my name when I posted in this thread as always when I post.

I think you guys are refering to someone else...

 

Andrie the quotes you posted were from Primo ....please clarify cause I don't take cheap shots!

 

Thanks,

Paul Bloomberg

#51 ITR

Phoenix, Az

 

Paul, I'm sorry if you thought I'm refering to you. Primo's name is Paul too.

 

I'll go back and edit all my posting.

[Thawley]

Andy Hope ran the same sort of set up to win the 2003 HC championship, so I thought this would be a good starting point, but then the rules changed. The b16a just was not competitive @ 2200lb, so I had to step up and buy a b18c5. b18c5 engine stock is pretty competitive (by the way since no one, but John and I should up for the H1 race at Thill and I won both day I came in 2nd in the championship).

Brent:

 

I have to chime in here on awards weight. As much as I would like to fiddle with HC rules to the point of perfection, I think that awards weight if the surest way to kill a series since the Penske 917s in Can-Am. Here's why:

 

• Awards weight adjustments are a HUGE pain in the ass for the even very best, full-time, paid pro-series stewards and scrutineers. We have volunteers. Let's not subject them to more monthly debates in the pits beyond what they already have to deal with. Weight adjustments should be limited to the annual rules reviews for all but the most outrageously necessary competition adjustments.

 

• Awards weight is a marketing instrument meant to give parity between different car manufacturers and encourage their participation (both in terms of cars and dollars) in a given pro series. HC has only one manufacturer, and NASA enjoys no financial participation from Honda as it is.

 

• In amateur club racing, relative speed between competitors and cars is seldom consistent enough to draw accurate conclusions about weight adjustments on a race to race basis.

 

• You and I, the H1 "field", were still getting our asses kicked all around the track buy the front-runners in H4. Their best laps in qualifying were 3-4 seconds faster than your best all weekend and 5-6 seconds faster than mine. We are not getting enough out of our cars to cast doubt about equality when we aren't running with the "slow" class. At least I know I'm not.

 

It was nice meeting you at Thunderhill. Look forward to running with you again.

[ek_brandon]

Don't worry Paul, no one thought it was you...at least I knew they were talking about Primo. And also, Mikeski, I very much disagree with you on the fact that the B-series are outdated. Explain this to me HOW? They still use Multi-Port fuel injection, and to be honest, I think they're still the easiest to work on and most reliable motors ever made.

 

who are you kidding man? the new k series motors are more efficient and more powerful. honda didnt back track and creat some crappy new engine ,it will last as-long-as, or out last all b series motors. they are the real deal, and after a few years, they will be all over junk yards (just like b series) and that will be the new dominant swap. any REAL mechanic can work on a k series motor as easily as a b series motor, or a big block chevy, or a subaru boxer engine. its all crank, rod and pistons to me man! i said it before, and ill say it again: its unfortunate that the b series swaps youve invested in are being replaced, but the rules shouldnt be changed to give these cars a new place to run. come back to the d series motors, or go to k's... or just quit whining and have some fun trying to pass the h4 guys that will be on the same track at the same time.

 

this isnt the crap talk forum, so dont take this the wrong way, but mike had a valid point and ignorance must be put to death. b16 motors will have a legacy much the same as the crx... just not in H1

[PSUCRX]

Ok, I'm going to assume you've got assloads of money...oh but wait, in your sig, it says soon to be H4. So why are you arguing for K-motors, when it doens't apply to you anyway? You're running H4.

 

As far as being more efficient or powerful, I didn't say that EVER read my post. They are the most RELIABLE, and easiest to WORK on, and last time I checked, efficient or more powerful wasn't what those words mean. I agree that K-motors are just that, more efficient and powerful. However the one thing K-motors don't have that the B series does, is universal chassis applications. Every single Civic, CRX, Del Sol and Integra from 1989 to 2000(or 2001 if you're talking about the integra) in one or more trim levels, had a B-series motor available STOCK from Honda, either in Japan or here. This makes engine swaps much easier and cheaper.

 

The K-series is definately carrying the torch passed on by the almighty B. But I'm not going to go around pushing the K, when 1. I have no means to use it at this point and 2. It's simply out of my budget and will be for some time.

 

I want to have a place I can hone my skills with the car I have. This discussion is on wether or not LMS motor swapped cars can or should be allowed to run in more competitive classes. You're arguement is way off base IMO.

 

So basically, unless you're running a K or are trying to contribute objectively and realistically to the subject at hand, I'd suggest you watch and listen or do your homework a little more.

[BrianZ]

Ok, I'm going to assume you've got assloads of money...oh but wait, in your sig, it says soon to be H4.

 

So why are you arguing for K-motors, when it doens't apply to you anyway? You're running H4.So basically, unless you're running a K or are trying to contribute objectively and realistically to the subject at hand, I'd suggest you watch and listen or do your homework a little more.

 

I don’t care if you run H1 or H4, it affects all of us. If rules are made that affect any Honda challenge class it can have an effect on every class. I have been sitting back and reading, and watching for a LONG time.

 

Now, this is my opinion, but Honda Challenge is still a new class of racing. I do not think making another class is the best thing to do at this point. We don’t even have enough cars to fill the current classes here in nor cal (I know we represent only a small part of HC). One of the first things you learn when you want to start racing is find a class you want to race and build/buy a car for that class. That is what the rest of us have done.

 

Now if you wanted to get JDM spec cars into H2-H5 I could see this. But how do you make sure the car conforms to the JDM spec? Then you would have to include a LOT of car, engine, and brake combos that were never in the USA. I think that would take away from the original intent of the rules.

 

I'm just afraid if we start adding classes (like JDM spec, LMS, etc) HC will become to confusing and people will not want to run it.

[mikeski38]

Ok, I'm going to assume you've got assloads of money...oh but wait, in your sig, it says soon to be H4. So why are you arguing for K-motors, when it doens't apply to you anyway? You're running H4.

 

 

 

 

I am arguing for the sake of HC as a whole, not just for one particular engine. I have some experiance with HC and other series and I have found that over regulation and constant rule changes are detrimental to any series. Look at USTCC for example. Do we want to end up like that?

 

And as far as your skills as a driver, why don't you come drive in a car where you right foot can't bail you out.

[ek_brandon]

psucrx:

 

1- i dont have assloads of money. if i did, i would be in fiji w/my super model girlfriend, not arguing on the internet with a guy i dont know on thanksgiving.

 

2- i was arguing about k motors because your comments about "easiest to work on " and "most reliable engine ever" are ignorant. the b motors are great, but so are all honda motors. the attraction to b motors was exactly what you said: easy swap into any honda, good performance and pretty cheap to buy. that is why H1 was created. if you need a race car that is cheap and easy to work on, why are you obsessed wtith building a hybrid? sell your b16 and buy a d16. use the money left over for track time.

 

3- "I want to have a place I can hone my skills with the car I have" its called hpde, and you dont even need to add LMS to do it.

 

4- my "homework" is done. my thesis: LMS=bad. current rules=good.

 

5- the car is made according to the rules, not the other way around.

[mikeski38]

psucrx:

 

1- i dont have assloads of money. if i did, i would be in fiji w/my super model girlfriend, not arguing on the internet with a guy i dont know on thanksgiving.

 

2- i was arguing about k motors because your comments about "easiest to work on " and "most reliable engine ever" are ignorant. the b motors are great, but so are all honda motors. the attraction to b motors was exactly what you said: easy swap into any honda, good performance and pretty cheap to buy. that is why H1 was created. if you need a race car that is cheap and easy to work on, why are you obsessed wtith building a hybrid? sell your b16 and buy a d16. use the money left over for track time.

 

3- "I want to have a place I can hone my skills with the car I have" its called hpde, and you dont even need to add LMS to do it.

 

4- my "homework" is done. my thesis: LMS=bad. current rules=good.

 

5- the car is made according to the rules, not the other way around.

 

true that!

[Thawley]

4- my "homework" is done. my thesis: LMS=bad. current rules=good.

The current rules ARE good. Just perhaps not inclusive enough to our whole market.

5- the car is made according to the rules, not the other way around.

Also true. But when there is an overwhelmingly large market not being reached buy the status quo a vacuum is created. Nature abhors a vacuum. It WILL be filled somehow. Better by us than anyone.

 

Spec Miata will be a national class in SCCA next year. It didn't get there by people building cars to the existing rules of IT or Production classes a few years ago.

 

Two kinds of people make headlines: those who are the first to do something and those who are the last. Which group should we belong to?

[BrianZ]

Also true. But when there is an overwhelmingly large market not being reached buy the status quo a vacuum is created.

 

Can you please show us that there are enough people in this "large market" that race, or are willing..? So far I have heard from 2 people.

 

If there are enough people, then I’m sure a new class would be made.

 

Spec Miata will be a national class in SCCA next year. It didn't get there by people building cars to the existing rules of IT or Production classes a few years ago

 

How many classes are there in SM?

[Thawley]

Can you please show us that there are enough people in this "large market" that race, or are willing..? So far I have heard from 2 people.

I will do exactly that in my formal proposal to the rules committee. But you're missing the point if you think it takes a ready group of participants to start a series, a class, or even a subcategory of cars. It takes recognition of an opportunity and the vision to act on it. If there were an LMS class tomorrow, I doubt a single car would show up for a race in three weeks. Maybe one or two by the start of the season in Feb. Most of the people in this potential market don't even know about this forum. But in three years it could be bigger than H1. Perhaps H4, in time.

 

Can somebody please tell us how many H1 cars attended the FIRST race where they were eligible?

 

In the beginning, it's not about the number of people. It's about the hardware and money. There are mountains of good, cheap unused cars and drivetrains available. The engine swap kits to put a B-series in 88-95 Civics out sell any other mount kit made by more than 10 to 1. And the racing in HC in general is just now at the point where it is gaining national attention in the press. It is a no-brainer to get this to work. As a result, we'll have more cars. And more money for NASA. That might not mean lower entry fees, but as insurance rates, track rental and operating costs will surely go up, it MIGHT mean NASA could run with current pricing for a longer period without increases. It could also mean enough cars for an HC only run group. Or at least starting ahead of the Miatas and Spec-7s in NorCal and elsewhere. It's really a win/win for everyone. So far the complaining has just been about all the problems that could arise from a poor rules package. But there is no rules package, yet. Save your complaints until you SEE some rules. Or, maybe you could help insure that there are good rules in the proposal by contributing your own ideas of how to make it work rather than why it won't.

 

I like your point about the number of classes within Spec Miata, but the difference between SM and HC in the economics. Mazda supports the class. Racers can buy parts cheaper than most wholesalers. Mazda has created an economy where SM is one of the cheapest classes in racing. HC's economy is dictated by the real market value of new, used and imported hardware. JDM price gouging does not exist in SM because it can't. Same is true in H4 and will be true in anything LMS that I get a say in.

 

I will be submitting a comprehensive draft to the rules committee for their consideration. If you truly have fears about specific problems, please make suggestions about how we could avoid them. I would love to have as much help as possible. But I believe in the concept and am willing to do the grunt work. If all people want to do is tell me why something won't work, let them save their breath. I listen to the advise of successful people with proven track records for solving problems. Those who only wish to create problems and bitch will find a more receptive audience amongst others with similar ambition to their own, but not with me.

 

Onward and upward,

[Andrie]

John,

 

Let me see if I understand your LMS class means. Is that allowing any (what currently classed) as hybrid cars run in the LMS class as long as they follow the same rules as H2-H5? Same rules defined as modification and weight follow the rules with particular engine size, and disregard chassis designation?

 

If that what you mean, I like the idea. However, this will require quite a big resource to police and rule enforcement. And I do believe the success of the series is depends on how strict the rules will be implemented.

 

As far as if it will work? I don't know, but I can see the potential.

 

I know I might be getting unpopular fast, but I much rather not Honda Challenge create a new class, rather incorporate those into H2-H5. We have enough class, and if we let those cars run with H2-H5, as long as it follow the same rules, why not?

[Thawley]

There are really two ways to do it:

1. Allow LMS hybrids in H2-3 with appropriate rules for relative equality, OR

2. Start a new class for LMS or Sub-class within H1 (same thing) which would allow most of the same chassis rules as H1 except drivetrain.

 

At first I was leaning toward the integration with H2-3. I agree that five classes seem like enough already. But the rules and policing issues in H2-3 are significant and the impact on existing racers (on the east coast) might not be welcomed. After thinking about that (a lot) and listening to discussions here and elsewhere, I see the simplicity of a new LMS class. I still think six classes is ridiculous, but it might have the best future. I really don't want to screw with the existing rules and racers running under them. Hard temptation to resist though, with so few entries in H2-3. I'd like to believe that those classes will grow as the series does and that the ever falling price of the used builder cars will help. But I'm not convinced H2-3 will ever have the fields that H4 and H1 have seen. I don't know.

 

There will be a LOT of research looking into all this. At this point, I'm planning to analyze both scenarios. Take a detailed look at total production numbers for cars and engines plus engine outputs and brake parts crossover. Whatever I learn will be shared. And I wouldn't suggest any rule that allows rare, expensive or obscure parts as an option. NSX calipers come to mind. If there does need to be a brake rule other than stock, it should be easy to police. Like sticking with only ferrous metal, single piston Honda/Acura calipers and 11" rotors, or something like that that is easy to tech. Using different year, application or part numbered components in the writing of the rules would take the fun out of things in a hurry.

 

NASA's needs and thoughts will have more to do with any particular direction than mine. I'm just going to present the best solutions I can find and see where it leads.

 

Tip for the day: Go see The Incredibles!

[mikeski38]

Spec Miata will be a national class in SCCA next year. It didn't get there by people building cars to the existing rules of IT or Production classes a few years ago.

 

The "specs" in Spec Miata was not decided upon by the competitors, nor are they up for negotiation. Spec miatas run weak shocks, poor spring rates, high min weights, limited chassis stiffening, limited allignment options, countless other limitations, and only ONE class. Spec miata is successful because the rules have been and are going to continue to be consistent.

 

If HC gets the bad reputation of changing it rules on a whim to satisfy a small number of racers who were unfortunate enough to build their car before doing their homework, we will not grow. You guys have to think of the wellbeing of the series. We all want our cars to go faster, but this is not the way to do it. NASA already has two classes where your cars can run, SU and Time Trials. Get all your lame motor swap guys together and run SU and go have fun. Don't meddle with a working formula.

[mikeski38]

There are really two ways to do it:

1. Allow LMS hybrids in H2-3 with appropriate rules for relative equality, OR

2. Start a new class for LMS or Sub-class within H1 (same thing) which would allow most of the same chassis rules as H1 except drivetrain.

 

 

JUST RUN H1 with your lame motors!

[slammed_93_hatch]

first off again im not an HC driver, but im pretty damn set on getting there. Some of the people who are arguing strongly in this don't event race, and thats including me

 

 

1. weight adjustment to b16 powered cars? maybe, 100lbs? i don't think so.

 

2. allowing "LMS" into other classes, worst idea ever and would be the death of HC.

 

 

In all serousness if you can't or don't want to race in H1 with the Big motor's, then sell it off and get a h2-h4 legal setup. I DID IT and guess what I MADE MONEY. Enough to make my car completly h4 ready and legal.

 

As i said befor you but a b16a in in a cx/dx/vx/std/hf chassi your BRAKES WILL FADE AND WILL GO OUT, i have a b18b in a VX chassi and my brakes would cook quicker then Emeralde live. It's going to create a domino effect, just like the piston and rod thing would have.

[Thawley]

Spec miata is successful because the rules have been and are going to continue to be consistent.

Don't forget affordable. It is consistant and consistantly affordable. Cheap, plentiful cars, limited modifications and the exclusion of JDM parts keep it affordable. Good recipe for success.

[mikeski38]

Don't forget affordable. It is consistant and consistantly affordable. Cheap, plentiful cars, limited modifications and the exclusion of JDM parts keep it affordable. Good recipe for success.

 

Ummmm, maybe not. Do you realize how much money it takes now adays to be competetive in SM? Answer, a crapload more then H4 at the monemt.

 

To purchase a new spec miata that is capable of placing in the top ten at an SCCA regional event, about $20,000. Competetiveness with a class with inevitably increase its cost to run. Hence H1.

 

I don't think many people chose racing as their hobby because it is affordable.

[Thawley]

As i said befor you but a b16a in in a cx/dx/vx/std/hf chassi your BRAKES WILL FADE AND WILL GO OUT

 

Yeah, I did read that post. Did you read the one that asked for suggested solutions instead of more chest beating about the problems? Did you read the one that said there were at least two solutions to the LMS integration issue? Only one of which has a potential brake issue? Did you read the post that suggested a cheap and easy fix to your brake fade problem?

 

As for the domino effect, that only happens when it is allowed to. Let's have good suggestions and rules ideas that won't allow it.

[mikeski38]

As for the domino effect, that only happens when it is allowed to.

 

I guess we'll have to give Mike Quan a raise so he can afford to police all these new rules. Wait, he doesn't get paid anything to VOLUNTEER his time HC. Here's a suggestion for you. Hire an administrative team to govern all these new complicated rules, and pay them by raising the entry fee for all LMS drivers.

 

As for your domino effect, it has already started. allowing motor swaps at all was the first domino, but H1 rules were written to stop the cascade. If your proposal is approved, it will begin the cascade and we won't be able to stop it. LMS will be the second domino and the point of no return for HC. Do us all a favor and just build a car to the rules just like SM guys are forced to do, and you said your self that SM is a successful series.

[Thawley]

As for the domino effect, that only happens when it is allowed to.

 

I guess we'll have to give Mike Quan a raise so he can afford to police all these new rules. Wait, he doesn't get paid anything to VOLUNTEER his time HC. Here's a suggestion for you. Hire an administrative team to govern all these new complicated rules, and pay them by raising the entry fee for all LMS drivers.

 

I meant "allowed to" by leaving loopholes in the rules. Do you honestly think there is a chance NASA would pass new rules that would bury the regional directors in tech and enforcement? Not my intent. I will not suggest anything that is a policing burden to the stewards.

[mikeski38]

I meant "allowed to" by leaving loopholes in the rules. Do you honestly think there is a chance NASA would pass new rules that would bury the regional directors in tech and enforcement? Not my intent. I will not suggest anything that is a policing burden to the stewards.

 

My goodness man! Rules are just words on paper, it is the stewards that must inforce them. If you write a set of new rules, the burden of enforcing thoserules will be by definition on the tech stewards, where in HC is the group leader.

[Thawley]

We're just going to have to agree to disagree here, Mike. Our opinions and logic differ. So be it. But please know that I have the best interest of NASA, it's current market and it's potential market in mind in all my thoughts and suggestions. Also, Mike Quan and the rest of the rules committee will the first who see any proposed rules additions. I'm pretty sure they can protect themselves from all my terrible ideas ;^)

 

I really am looking for good suggestions about how best to propose the LMS concept. It would be nice to have your help as well as your criticism.

[mikeski38]

We're just going to have to agree to disagree here, Mike. Our opinions and logic differ. So be it. But please know that I have the best interest of NASA, it's current market and it's potential market in mind in all my thoughts and suggestions.

 

I really am looking for good suggestions about how best to propose the LMS concept. It would be nice to have your help as well as your criticism.

 

John, I am not questioning your intent. I know you believe that this will be benificial to HC. I am trying to explian to you why I think it will not. Think of it like when you tried to build a fort as a kid. Your original plans were of a huge complicated fort with ladders and trap doors and illuminated signs that said no gilrs allowed, but when it came time to build it, you ended up with a window and a rope with knots in it. My point is that the rules need to be extremely simple on paper for them to work in practice. If there is any hint of complexity, they will fail, and to me what you are proposing is very complex.

[Thawley]

John, I am not questioning your intent. I know you believe that this will be benificial to HC. I am trying to explian to you why I think it will not. Think of it like when you tried to build a fort as a kid. Your original plans were of a huge complicated fort with ladders and trap doors and illuminated signs that said no gilrs allowed, but when it came time to build it, you ended up with a window and a rope with knots in it. My point is that the rules need to be extremely simple on paper for them to work in practice. If there is any hint of complexity, they will fail, and to me what you are proposing is very complex.

 

I couldn't agree more. The fort I want to build is actually an existing refrigerator box. Maybe cut a very simple window in one side. (Perhaps with a flower box below it to ENCOURAGE the girls...)

 

If only I knew then what I do now :^)