ff2skip Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 According to the rules listed on the website, the SPC adjustable ball joint would be assessed zero points. Is this not true? SUSPENSION/BRAKES/CHASSIS: - 7) Replace or modify control arms (other than plates, shims, slots, or eccentric bolts/bushings for simple camber/caster adjustment only)(may have spherical/metallic joint(s) for the connection to the spindle/knuckle) +4 No Point Modifications - 10) Simple camber, caster, and toe adjustment by any method that does not alter suspension mounting points (unless the modification used is otherwise assessed points above). Bolt on camber/caster plates are not assessed points. TIA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZELISE Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the S2000 have eccentric bolts/bushings for simple camber/caster adjustment from the factory? So the SPC ball joint would be above and beyond the simple factory camber adjustment if my guess is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H4CRXSi Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 In the Suspension/Brake/Chassis Section of the Classification Form: 16) Alteration of ball joints/dive angles +2 Yes, I agree that the slotted ball joints are a means of "simple camber/caster", but I've already discussed the SPC stuff with Greg at length and they are in fact a +2 modification. Regards, Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ff2skip Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 Well, apparently it isn't clear at all. Many S2000's have them, and I know for a fact that none of those folks ever intended to not claim points, including myself and my late friend, Cale. Since there is an audience, perhaps you can answer the question as to why the AP1 S2000 was bumped up 40 lbs this year seeing as I never received an answer on that one when the rules finally made their way into print in February. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ff2skip Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the S2000 have eccentric bolts/bushings for simple camber/caster adjustment from the factory? So the SPC ball joint would be above and beyond the simple factory camber adjustment if my guess is correct. Wait a minute, that makes zero sense based on what I've read on this board. Cars and their classifications are derived from their off-the-assembly-line condition. How can you say, "Sorry, we classed your car as it comes from the factory, but Rules X, Y, and Z do not apply to you?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ff2skip Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 In the Suspension/Brake/Chassis Section of the Classification Form: 16) Alteration of ball joints/dive angles +2 Yes, I agree that the slotted ball joints are a means of "simple camber/caster", but I've already discussed the SPC stuff with Greg at length and they are in fact a +2 modification. Regards, Sam Hmmm, ok. May I ask how am I able to gain a similar range of camber adjustment as the next competitor or am I limited to factory allowances? Also, since the two ball joints themselves are the same with one simply adding a plate on top, would you please share the logic discussed? When I share this revelation with fellow drivers of all makes, I want to be able to tell them why. If I spot them on a competitor's ride and they're not accounted for, being able to civilly explain to them the "why" is much more conducive to harmonious fellowship vice coming across as a dick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixR34 Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 1. Who said you're supposed to be able to get as much camber adjustment as everyone else? I can't get as much power in my car as some people in the same class.. that's life. Buy a different car, slot your crossmember for more camber, use different eccentric bolts, etc. I have free camber plates on my car, but then again, I'm stuck with archaic strut suspension that doesn't have the camber gain the S2000 does either. 2. If it's not the OEM balljoint as was delivered on the car, it's not stock.. it's modified/replaced/aftermarket. That's all you need to know. SPC balljoints don't come stock on a base S2000, or at least they didn't on my old S2K. An S2000 just blew everyone away at Nationals last year in TTC.. there isn't a whole lot of room for negotiation IMO. If your competitors have modifed ball joints and aren't taking points, that's not a rulebook issue.. that's an issue with whoever is classing the car. Mistakes happen.. if you're competing against them, see to it they get the correct points taken. I'm not trying to be harsh, but you're flipping out here... given how you're bringing up the weight issue, it seems there's more to this post than a simple clarification on ball joints. My car got bumped 7 points this year and it didn't even win Nationals. Maybe I need to start a thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H4CRXSi Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 You'd be better off asking Greg as it was over a year ago when he and I discussed it and I don't remember all of the particulars. I didn't really agree with it at that time and still don't, but he is the guy who makes the rules, so once he says how a part is considered that is how I treat it until I hear differently from him. Feel free to check the locked 9 page thread in this forum and you'll see where a new S2k TTC guy didn't account for his adjustable ball joints and was DQ'ed after the event and had his new track record taken away. Best of luck in finding an answer. Regards, Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ff2skip Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 I'm not trying to be harsh, but you're flipping out here... given how you're bringing up the weight issue, it seems there's more to this post than a simple clarification on ball joints. My car got bumped 7 points this year and it didn't even win Nationals. Maybe I need to start a thread. Actually, I'm not flipping out. And just because I asked a subsequent question in this thread has nothing to do with anything other than I never received answers at the beginning of the year. I'm still trying to wrap my head around some of the changes as pertains to the AP1 vs the AP2. The alledged "committee" really screwed that one up. No, my reason for bringing that up was it seemed that there were folks responding here that had an inside track to the nat'l reasoning/clarification. Nothing more. If you'd like, I can elaborate as to why, point-wise, someone with a reflashable, late model S2000(the one that put a hurtin' on at nat'ls) is a couple points better off than any other model or year S2000. And from what I've heard, put Rene in the other guy's car and he'd win in that, too. There are such things as "more talent." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ff2skip Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 You'd be better off asking Greg as it was over a year ago when he and I discussed it and I don't remember all of the particulars. I didn't really agree with it at that time and still don't, but he is the guy who makes the rules, so once he says how a part is considered that is how I treat it until I hear differently from him. Feel free to check the locked 9 page thread in this forum and you'll see where a new S2k TTC guy didn't account for his adjustable ball joints and was DQ'ed after the event and had his new track record taken away. Best of luck in finding an answer. Regards, Sam I'm sure Greg is a nice guy away from all this, something I'll have to assume as I've never met the guy- I'm new to TT's, however, I will not stop doing what I do to wait for a reponse. As for the mentioned thread, I did take a peek in there, but didn't have time to read it in its entirety. I only picked up that there was trouble in paradise and there was mention of a front bumper. Thank you for taking the time to respond. I have already linked this thread to our track thread to alert current and future TT'ers of our collectively gross error in interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ff2skip Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 I started TT'ing last year in a car I've owned since Aug '02. It's not like I said, "I want to WIN!!! What car is the best for whatever class?" I never even tracked until early '04. And actually, I have solicited my regional TT director for opinions/clarifications last year/beginning of this year so as to be prepared and compliant. If you knew me, you'd know I'm honest to a fault. A response, however, never came from national. Considering I instruct with NASA and other local organizations, I have plenty of access to Jon Felton. I have no reason to believe he would lie to me about responses, or lack thereof. I'm not as talented as some of the younger hotshoes, and I'd be lying if I said Cale's death hasn't temporarily zapped some of my competitive fire, but I've spent a lot of money de-modding my car last year to meet TTC criteria. Obviously not enough. Again, my only intent here was to get clarification(this matter was not run up the chain of command mainly because of the utter shock that came over me upon hearing of the assessment). As for the weight increase, I originally had hoped that it was a typo and never received an explanation regarding my questions about the S2000 specifically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ff2skip Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 Whoa... my above response was to a post by phoenixR34. It seems his post has since been deleted for whatever reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I did Rene's checkride for TT - dude is one the most skilled I've ridden with so far and really I can't say I'm surprised to see him walk away with that championship. The weather also didn't play into anyone's hands chasing him either... might have seen that gap shrink a bit after people had a "rabbit" to chase for a few days. I'm failing to see how *if* the joint itself is OEM equivalent how it can be points for slotting the mounting base for more camber. (and that may be a big if - I'd like to have my hands on a stock one vs this part) Are we going to go through and charge someone points because they have an Autozone ball joint on their car instead of paying more for something at their stealership's parts counter? Doubtful I know, just trying to illustrate the angle I am looking at this through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ff2skip Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 I'm failing to see how *if* the joint itself is OEM equivalent how it can be points for slotting the mounting base for more camber. (and that may be a big if - I'd like to have my hands on a stock one vs this part) Since my car is on stands and I knew where the oem one was, I took a couple pics for you all. And forgive my ignorance, I do not know what a "dive angle" is. Pics below obviously have zero weight on the suspension. OEM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted June 4, 2009 National Staff Share Posted June 4, 2009 A wise man once said, "Pick your frog, and live with the warts." Warts that NASA TT Admin. has been aware of for a long time include attempts at getting free camber adjustments on the front ends of S2000 and 350Z's, as well as rear camber on M3's. We have considered those points needed as essentially required if one wants to modify the vehicle to a higher level of prep (usually has required +4 for control arms, but it seems that this +2 point mod will get the job done for the S2000 now). In this case, the rule is clear. Alteration of ball joints is +2. The aftermarket adjustable ball joint (and mount) is not the same as OEM. It does not meet the OEM replacement rules. This is not a free camber mod, because it is "assessed points elsewhere". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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