Classify my Integra

[Michael Alsip]

It's obvious why I want this car classified given the "open interpretation" of the rules that has occurred lately. So, help me out. My understanding is in parenthesis.

 

2001 Integra Type R = TTD

Full weight (0)

225 Nitto NT01s (+7 for tire, -4 for size)

Js Racing CF Intake (+1)

Shiny Polished Distributor King OEM Replacement Distributor (0)

Magnecor Plug Wires (0)

Carbon Fire Plug Wire Cover (0)

JDM OEM 4-1 Header (+2)

High Flow Catalytic Converter (+1)

Spoon Axle Back Exhaust (+2 or is this +1 since I have a point above for the cat already?)

JIC Magic FLT-A2 Coilovers (+5)

Enkei Wheels (0)

F1Spec Seat (0)

Buddy Club Seat Rails (0)

Strawberry Pine Tree Air Freshener (0)

Outlaw Engineering Plastic Intake Manifold Gasket (???)

Outlaw Engineering Plastic Throttle Body Gasket (???)

Outlaw Engineering Plastic IACV Gasket (???)

Carbotech Front Brake Pads (0)

Hawk Rear Brake Pads (0)

Stainless Steel Brake Lines (0)

Rear Seats Removed (0)

 

I wanted to be thorough so I included everything.

 

Also, I have the following parts that I can put on the car but I'm not sure how they'll affect points.

 

Skunk2 Front Slotted Upper Control Arms

Chipped P28 OBD1 ECU with BoomSlang Conversion Harness

 

Other than a lot of Hondabond, this is absolutely everything I have in my car. I don't want something to happen later, so can you guys help me now?

[kbrew8991]

the exhaust is 5pts total (2, 1, and 2)

 

are those gaskets thicker than the OEM stuff or just a different material?

[obzezzed350]

The exhaust would be +2 from my interpretation since you have an aftermarket header. So +5 for the whole exhaust. The control arms would be +4. The chipped ECU would be +0 since its a flash but I dont know if the harness you have passes the OEM hardware/box requirement so it may be assessed points. Pics of the car?

[Michael Alsip]

Gaskets are thicker and a different material to limit heat transfer from the block into the intake manifold and then to each piece thereafter.

 

I saw no clarification about an IACV gasket or anything like that... I really have no idea why the previous owner even bothered putting it on. If anything, the IACV piece of the set would do worse to limit the heat to transfer to a larger surface area from the throttle body and dissipate quicker. I'm not attached to them so if the TB and IACV gaskets cause me to take points, I may pull them off. I'd like to keep the manifold to block one.

[Michael Alsip]

Pics:

 

 

Forgot about the Shiny 710 Cap! You can see the thickness of the gasket here:

 

 

I also have a Spoon rear strut tower bar that I forgot about.

Edited June 5, 2009 by Guest

[obzezzed350]

Air freshener is +2..

[Michael Alsip]

Air freshener is +2..

 

Don't tell anyone, but it's actually a dynamic centrifugal force meter that gives me a huge advantage over my competition.

 

See it in action here:

[obzezzed350]

Damn that thing would drive me nutz blocking my rear view...surprised no one in tech said anything

[Greg G.]

Michael, this is exactly how drivers get into trouble. Car classing over the Internet, especially from fellow drivers who may or may not be able to comprehend a rule any better than you, is a setup for having a problem. While you may think that you have given the information needed to help you, we don't know if you really did. Example--above, a driver tried to help you and stated that the ECU would be +0 since it is flash. He did recognize that something was not right if you needed to have an aftermarket wiring harness, though. However, it sounds to me like your proposed "Chipped P28 OBD1 ECU with BoomSlang Conversion Harness" is an aftermarket/Non-OEM ECU (conversion from OBDII to OBDI) that is +3 points. However, unless you gave me more info, or I researched it myself, I couldn't say with 100% certainty over the Internet. Another example is that Ken asked you about your gaskets. Your reply is that they are thicker and a different material, and that they do provide a performance benefit. In that case, you would take points for them.

 

The Rules specifically tell drivers: "Competitors are encouraged to seek clarification of any rule and/or inspection of any

modified or non-OEM part they are unsure about, before competition, from their Regional TT Director or the National TT Director." It doesn't say ask for different opinions on the Forums. Your initial statement that there has been an "open interpretation" of the rules is only correct insofar as the "open" part of the interpretation was made by those that incorrectly interpreted them, or let their friends tell them what to do. As Sam posted on one thread, the issue of adjustable ball joints has always been interpreted by National TT Administration the same way. The same goes for aero mods, exhausts, etc. Just because a competitor gets something wrong, does not mean there is an "open interpretation".

 

If you have fully read and understand the Rules, then you would know that the reason Ken asked you if the gaskets are the same size as the OEM gaskets, is to determine if they will qualify under the Section 5.4 OEM Definition for a No-Points OEM replacement part.

"Some parts that are produced by aftermarket manufacturers as generic replacement parts may not require a points assessment provided that: they are the same size and shape, and have the same functional characteristics as the OEM part, and that they provide no significant improvement in performance, longevity, or reliability."

The two questions are WHY are they on the vehicle instead of stock OEM gaskets, and are they the same size? If they have any performance advantage, or change airflow, etc, then they either must be accounted for in a points assessment if there is an applicable modification listed, OR, they are not legal.

 

I'm not sure how this has occurred over time with the newer drivers, but let me remind everyone, if you have a part on the car that has been modified for any reason other than bling, then it better be accounted for in one way or another (legal OEM replacement part, No-Points Modification, or assessed points). Just because you think that your xyz part "barely does anything", or you can't tell if it does anything beneficial, does not make it a No-Points Modification. Just because another car model with an entirely different suspension setup gets to take advantage of a No-Points camber modification, doesn't mean that you can also with a modification that is supposed to be assessed points.

 

Also, I have seen very well intentioned veteran TT drivers, and even TT Directors attempt to help a driver classify a car while sitting at a table with the car nowhere in site. While explaining a rule to someone can be very helpful, IT DOES NOT GUARANTEE THAT THE CAR IS LEGAL. I have had drivers that were assisted by others (that fully know and understand the rules) "at the bench", and later I found up to 10-16 additional modification points when I inspected the vehicle myself. The fault, of course, was the driver's, and in retrospect, the "helpers" stated that the driver never told them he had that....

[soundguydave]

Simplest thing: we all run "showroom stock." That way nobody has to worry about mod points.

 

Seriously, though, I personally think that open forum discussion brings a better sense of understanding to the points assessments themselves, and allows us to clear up some VERY grey-area concerns. In the last two months, we have determined that:

 

S197 Mustang rear suspension members are classified as "control arms (+4)," even though they meet the textbook definition of a "trailing link (+1)"

S2000 slotted balljoints are NOT no-point mods, even though they perform the same task as a traditional camber-plate, which is a no point mod.

ANY body modification should be assessed at the maximum points possible for the change.

The maximum points cost for exhaust is +5, which buys you headers, a high-flow or deleted cat(s), and axle-back muffler(s)

A K-member swap does cost points, and is not a legacy from the "points for parts days."

Going from a "weight-jacker" type spring perch to a traditional coil-over is not assessed any points for suspension component relocation.

 

And this is just from the first page. As a former ASE-certified mechanic, I would have gotten caught leaning the wrong way on interpretation on half of the above, and yes, I am one of those that studies the rule book.

 

Information is power, and getting the correct info not only allows us to class our own cars correctly, but allows a better insight into how your competitor is classing theirs, or mis-classing theirs. The key to this whole competition (aside from driving skills, which I don't have) is to pick your car, pick your class, and then mod to the LIMIT of the class. What specific mods to do are, of course, platform dependent, but you need to understand the way the rules are interpreted to properly judge whether your car will hit your target or not. For example, if I were to program my car up as a maxed-out TTC car based on +1 trailing links, but the interpretation came down as +4 control arms, that would DQ me and bump me into an underprepared TTB car, bad on both counts. Because of this "coffee table discussion," I know that I need to leave 4 points in the budget, which would potentially save me from either a DQ or excess spending. Greg, this is why we're posting these questions, because we DON'T know, and keeping it all out in the open is only fair. Since there are SO many people interpreting the rules incorrectly, many (most?) with college degrees and/or significant automotive and racing experience, it really calls into question the wording of the rule set. Yes, I know a fine line needs to be drawn between overly complex and overly simple, but apparently the current rule set we have is just not on that line. I will volunteer to help with any re-wording, if it would help...

[obzezzed350]

I agree, I think open discussion helps answer the grey areas for everyone.

[Greg G.]

There is nothing wrong with open discussion. That is what Forums are for. The problem, once again, is that car classing needs to be done with the car present and ready for inspection. When I classify a car or inspect a car for compliance, I don't just check the items checked off by the driver. I check all of the areas listed on the form, and then look for any other mods that are not listed and may be illegal. The appropriate resources are TT and PT Directors, and ultimately the National TT/PT/ST Director. I have seen an unprecedented number of "new" TT drivers (and some that have not even been in competition yet) over the past 6-12 months come up with their own "interpretations" of the TT Rules, often completely ignoring what is written. At times, one can see how they came to their misinterpretation. At other times, there are areas where manufacturers and drivers have come up with potential modifications that the TT Rules do not clearly cover one way or another.

 

Sorry, but I just don't understand how anybody can confuse this:

14) Tubular K(cross)-members that do not change the location of the lower control arms +2

with: we no longer assess points for them because we changed the weight reduction rules.

 

Or this:

16) Alteration of ball joints/dive angles +2

with: you don't take the points for them if another car can get camber with plates for free.

 

Or this:

(note: Additional points must be assessed below for any component of the added/replaced/modified fascia or air

dam that performs the functions listed in 2) and 4) below)

with: some body modifications should not be assessed at the maximum level.

 

Yes, there are ways to make the rules more clear. The first, best, easiest way is to simplify them. This will result in cars, especially street prepared cars, taking more points than they do now. Perhaps we have tried to make things fair for too many types of competitors? Here is my first proposed change: Non-OEM or modified Headers +2 points. Any other exhaust modification +3 points. Any comments out there from those with an aftermarket muffler only? Or, better yet: Non-OEM or modified Headers (includes any other exhaust modification)+5 points, and Any other exhaust modification +3 points. I'm ok with it, but I'm going to send the hundred complaint e-mails that I will get to a few folks that have been the most vocal on these forums recently.

 

Why don't we start a 20-30 page thread where everyone with an opinion (ie, everyone) can state all of the rules that they would like the wording changed for, and their proposed changes. We have done these before, and the degeneration of those threads into personal attacks, rambling, and worthless entries is just great fun for keyboard cowboys and trolls. Then, next to it, we can start a 20 page thread about how terrible "rules creep" is, and how the rules need to be stabilized, and we can list all of those that are leaving TT if we make the changes listed in the 20-30 page thread. Then, next to it, we can start a 15 page thread specifically about Mustangs and their control arms, or lack thereof. "Oh, sarcasm, humor, I get it, funny."

 

But, seriously, I think that many of you that are on the Forums underestimate the opinions of the 90% of our drivers that never visit the Forums. I have the benefit of getting their feedback, where you may not. If one were to just hang out here, he might get the opinion that NASA TT is full of a bunch of whiners and those that for whatever reason can't seem to understand the written rules. At least that is the feedback that I am getting from our Veteran drivers and some TT/PT Directors that visit here, but don't post because they don't want to be a part of the "drama". I see the answer to this recent trend as drivers going directly to the NASA TT administration, locally or nationally, via e-mail or at the track, instead of some of the recent threads where one or two people (sometimes actual competitors), continue to argue what we consider to be an invalid point.

 

And, back to the O.P. of this thread. Have your Regional TT Director go through the car with you. Take points or revert back to OEM anything that is a performance modification, unless it is specifically listed as No-Points. If your intake manifold gasket is thicker and changes the characteristics/function of the manifold, making heat transfer less, then you will need to take the points for Intake Manifold, period. If your Throttle body to intake manifold gasket is not an OEM replacement equivalent (per the TT Rules), then you need to take the points for throttle body modification, or put a stock gasket on. We are not going to try and evaluate whether or not there is a performance advantage or not. The assumption is ALWAYS that if something was changed from stock, there was a reason. It is not the job of the Tech Officials or TT Directors to be the uber car engineer and figure out exactly what or to what degree the performance enhancement is.

[Michael Alsip]

Back to the car, if we may...

 

I count 17 points as follows:

 

Nittos (+7, -4)

Intake (+1)

TB Gaskets (+2)

Intake Manifold Gasket (+1)

Header (+2)

Cat (+2)

Axle Back (+1)

Coilovers (+5)

 

Would someone care to "theoretically" help me out, assuming I have all of my parts listed? Do we have any TT directors on here?

[Greg G.]

Back to the car, if we may...

 

I count 17 points as follows:

 

Nittos (+7, -4)

Intake (+1)

TB Gaskets (+2)

Intake Manifold Gasket (+1)

Header (+2)

Cat (+2)

Axle Back (+1)

Coilovers (+5)

 

Would someone care to "theoretically" help me out, assuming I have all of my parts listed? Do we have any TT directors on here?

Amazing. Truly.

 

Nittos (+7, -4)

Intake (+1)

TB Gaskets (+2)

Intake Manifold Gasket (+1)

Header (+2)

Cat (+1)

Exhaust (+2)

Shocks +3

Springs +2

Removal of seats--presumed Competition weight greater than 2595 lbs= +0

17 points total as listed

 

And, the ECU would be +3, the control arms would be +4, and the non-OEM ball joints could potentially be protested as costing +2 more points.

 

The argument that the aftermarket ball joints (in this case) would be a No-Points Mod, would be that they are just the "spherical/metallic joint(s) for connection to the spindle/knuckle" that are included in the +4 assessment of the control arms.

[kbrew8991]

fyi - rules creep is not rules clarification. Easiest example is if lets say all of the sudden we had to add coilovers and full exhaust to the free mod list because its easier (silly reason I know, just for illustration). The guys that don't already have it now have to go out and buy it (or get beat), and the guys that do have it have to go out and buy more mods to spend the rest of their points (or get beat). Class records should fall everywhere now that the cars have crept towards being faster and more unlimited

 

back to your regularly scheduled car classing on the internet thread

 

I've got a few clarification things that I am planning to write the next time I've got a chance to work on TT stuff. With a banged up race car and an event next weekend it still may be a little while, but it will get done at some point. The basic idea I'm thinking towards is adding a line for +5 - full exhaust behind the exhaust ports and a line for +5 - basic coilovers under $x, 2 ranges adjustment or less. I'll work on getting the wording to match everything else, but I think sliding those two lines in would help clear up the two most common mistakes/questions/etc that I get when helping someone with their classing It makes no change in the end result, the classes get no faster, does make the rules a whole two lines longer, but not a big deal in the end.

[Michael Alsip]

Thanks, Greg. That's what I was looking for.

 

So, from here, I have a clairification question...

 

If I pull off the axle back and put my stocker back on, I'm not still assessed 2 points for exhaust since I have modifications upstream, am I?

[kbrew8991]

that would drop you back to having just the header (+2) and cat removal/change (+1) right?

 

if its OEM from where the cat used to be that sounds like just +3 to me...

[Michael Alsip]

Yeah, that would be the case. That sounds like it makes sense to me.

 

I also just found out from the previous owner that the rear sway bar is a 1mm thicker JDM alternative. I guess I have to take 2 points for that as well. Sounds like I'm prepared to the limits of TTD!

[Trevor57]

What region are you in?

[Greg G.]

that would drop you back to having just the header (+2) and cat removal/change (+1) right?

 

if its OEM from where the cat used to be that sounds like just +3 to me...

 

No, that is not necessarily correct.

 

26) Non-OEM or modified exhaust system downstream from the header, exhaust

manifold, or turbo. (does not include catalytic converter removal/upgrade) +2

(Note: Replacement of a failing OEM exhaust system may be permitted without a points

assessment if the OEM definition in 5.4 OEM Definition is strictly adhered to.)

 

27) Non-OEM or modified exhaust piping, resonators, or mufflers downstream from the OEM catalytic converter(s)

locations(s) +1 (for basic “catback” exhaust or performance mufflers only—otherwise, must use 26) +2 if the vehicle

has an aftermarket, modified, or deleted header/secondary/downpipe/pre-cat section/catalytic converter)

 

The only way that someone could end up taking just +2 for header and +1 for cat removal, as Ken posted here, is to have aftermarket or modified headers that Do NOT have an aftermarket secondary section, and the stock exhaust is connected to the header itself, and a true "test pipe" that is exactly the same size as the stock exhaust replaces the catalytic converter, and everything else, including the muffler is stock, base trim, OEM. Ken's statement could be true for a car where the header (without a secondary) would normally connect directly to the catalytic converter. In that case, the catalytic converter would still need to be replaced with a test pipe the same diameter as the rest of the stock/OEM exhaust.

 

We probably should just simplify the rule and let those with minimal mods take the extra points. Basically, if you have headers, and have deleted the catalytic converter, expect to take the full 5 points.

[Greg G.]

Yeah, that would be the case. That sounds like it makes sense to me.

 

I also just found out from the previous owner that the rear sway bar is a 1mm thicker JDM alternative. I guess I have to take 2 points for that as well. Sounds like I'm prepared to the limits of TTD!

That is exactly what I was talking about above. Now, if an inspector finds one more point that you are not aware of, you are non-compliant. You need to really do a complete inspection of the car yourself (especially when you haven't been the only owner). Make sure that there are no other JDM parts on the car--front fascia or rear bumper cover. Make sure there are no aftermarket axle braces, spherical/metallic bearings that need to be assessed, etc.

[SFerg]

What would be wrong with just two lines for header/exhaust?

 

1. Aftermarket header +2

2. Aftermarket exhaust or components +3

 

 

It's points if it's not stock. Simple.

 

Before this, after that, and if you are from Missouri, etc. is really confusing.

 

Maybe I don't understand the conversation. I just do see the need for simplification to reduce confusion. There may be some who see it as very simple, but it should be black and white for everyone.

[kbrew8991]

I would like to see the option to pick and choose, esp if you only have 1 or 2 points left to spend, but adding a line that acts as a "combo pack" might make sense (ie +5 for exhaust modification downstream of exhaust ports)

[Greg G.]

What would be wrong with just two lines for header/exhaust?

 

1. Aftermarket header +2

2. Aftermarket exhaust or components +3

 

 

It's points if it's not stock. Simple.

 

Before this, after that, and if you are from Missouri, etc. is really confusing.

 

Maybe I don't understand the conversation. I just do see the need for simplification to reduce confusion. There may be some who see it as very simple, but it should be black and white for everyone.

After this and a few other "Exhaust" threads this year, we may just go in that direction. While you and I may not care, someone will have to deal with the complaints from those that truly only have a catback or muffler upgrade, or someone that deleted a Cat. only, etc. And is taking less than 3 points. And, that someone is always me. The rule is complicated because our drivers essentially demanded it that way with all of their requests initially, later followed by their attempts to game the system and take less than 5 points for essentially an entire header/exhaust system without a Cat. But, if what it takes to make everyone understand the rule is to just give everyone 3 points if they touch the exhaust at all, and 5 points for a header (with any other exhaust mod allowed), then maybe we will do it in 2010.

[SFerg]

It just seems like it would be easier to understand and govern.

 

I am of the opinion that too many rules and/or sub-rules can too easily cause a "whatever, it doesn't matter" attitude toward those rules.

 

I like TT and it's rule set, it's just that sometimes competitors need to be saved from themselves.