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"Lame Motor Swap" (LMS) Cars in Honda Challenge


Thawley

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I thought I'd start a new thread with a more specific title and objective. Let's see if we can change direction in a more constructive way. Mike loosely said it all in the quote below:

 

Good discussion going on here guys. IMO, everyone here wants to see growth in HC & good competion within the respective classes. I am happy to see this enthusiasm.

 

The Rules Committee does too. It is a balancing act to adjust cars and/or car/engine combos. As we grow, there will continue to be adjustments made for class parity. Unfortunately, it will be virtually impossible to make all the various swaps competitive. eg a Civic with a ZC just ain't gonna cut it in H1.

 

Perhaps I gave the wrong impression in the other thread that allowing hybrids in H2 or H3 was the only way to go to help "lame-motored" swaps. I assume current H1 guys with GSR, ITR & K-series motors will find no joy in running enough weight to make a ZC or 18a competitive in H1. I also assume that creating another class within HC (H1x, H1a, Lame Motor Challenge/LMC, or whatever) is an option likely to be a bigger burden to the organizers than expanding the rules for H2 or H3.

 

I am not pushing for a specific solution. Just a good solution. Adopting a rules expansion (in whatever form works best for the current racers, new and potential racers and for NASAs organizers) that allows LMS cars a way to compete is all what I'm advocating. This should be a productive discussion of good ideas. It certainly does not need to be a pissing match about why this or that won't work.

 

Let's try this: there are all these cheap motors out there, and all these good cheap cars, HOW can we include hybrids which are not running B-series VTECs or K-series power plants. Also consider the cost of GSR/ITR/JDM gearing and gear boxes to those already bolted to the back of every B18a/b or other LMSs.

 

I'd prefer not to hear the comments about why this is a bad idea. But to those who can't resist, first ask yourself this: How many MORE races could you have done in the last two years if you were running an LMS drivetrain instead of $$$$$$ VTEC/K-series?

 

This should be about inclusion. Not exclusion. That's really where I think most of us would like to take this discussion.

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What level of prep do you want on these motors?

keep in mind you can't ask for something that the current hybryids can't already do.

The only way i see this working is as a bone stock motor with cam's being the only internal engine mod. Anything more than that and you've got a 180-200hp motor which can be competative in H1.

 

It would be easy to police with a bore scope we know what the piston marks should be for most pistons. Remove intake to inspect head.

 

Next what motors would you want to allow in this class, keep in mind the bigger the motor the more torque, would you want different weights for different motors?

 

how's that for a start?

 

bernardo

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First a few givens:

• Lame Motor Swap (LMS) cars ARE hybrids and with the exception of drivetrain rules would most easily be covered under H1 chassis rules.

• LMS cars will by design have a higher power to weight ratio than H4 cars but lower than H1 cars.

 

Realistically, stock or ITA/H4 spec engines and gearboxes are the way to start.

 

I have very mixed feelings about the allowed use of aftermarket cams. Cams could not only screw up the gearing for a new power curve, but also add expense and reliability issues. Done right, high lift cams require new springs and retainers. Done wrong I'm guessing that many of the new guys buying that stuff don't bother breaking in a new high-lift cam without the inner springs. Then they screw up the cam, spew all over the internet about why that manufacturer sucks, and drive people away who cannot afford the "best" gold-plated JDM tuner cam of the month. I'm interested in various opinions on this, but generally feel that limited lift cams or stock cams might be best.

 

The idea here is to use the cheapest, most available and most durable stuff. If the torque curve gets changed too radically, then guys will want type-r gears or JDM gear boxes. Its a slippery slope.

 

Things I'd like to see free:

• Header/exhaust

• Intake (upstream of the TB)

• ECU

• Gaskets, fasteners (rod bolts) and bearings

 

Limited Mods:

• Open OEM (Honda) oil and water pumps

• pulleys and cam gears (easier that offset keys)

• ITA/H4 spec port matching

• ITA/H4 spec compression bump

• ITA/H4 spec diff and final drive gear but not different gearboxs or mix and match gear ratio sets

 

If there is sufficient interest by the rules committee, I will research all the engine specs that could be allowed and their respective outputs. Seems like an engine type to min weight spec (like H1) might work. Or a displacement to weight spec. I do think that there ought to be some difference between B18s and B20s. B20s are a bit more rare and pricey than the B18s. Also, they will be more desirable to the CR/VETC guys in H1. K-series should not be allowed but the lame Accord Motors (A-series???) should be. I'm on the fence about H-motors and B-16s, but I'm sure it could work and I am willing to do the research to help figure it out.

 

That's not everything, but its a start.

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There was a thread on Honda-Tech about this a while back, I'm currently running HPDE3 with a CRX with a B16 and the only internal mod is CTR valve train, car hauls ass, however, I'd still get wasted out of every corner by any car with bigger than a 1.6 DOHC(even LS and B20's give me a run) I think running in H3 with that car would be competitive with THOSE minimal mods.

 

My arguement before was this. In the rules it states that JDM is STILL considered OEM(i.e. running a JDM ECU) So, being that technically the Del Sol VTEC was still the CRX in Japan as well as the rest of Europe, and the CRX SiR CAME with a B16 in it, why not put it in that catagory if in fact that is what you're running.

 

This would open it up for a lot of guys running H4 and wanting to go faster but not spend a lot of money. B16's can be found for cheap, and trannies although they are hard to find in the cable variable, can now be subsituted for the stouter more reliable hydro trannies using HASport's Hydro to Cable conversion(this would be allowable I would think since under HC rules you can swap out final drives and the JDM ITR has a 4.7 FD.)

 

Anyway, I would be much more inclined to jump into HC sooner if I knew I could go have fun with my CRX, otherwise, I'm going to just start saving and hope i'm a millionare by the time I'm 30...otherwise I won't be able to afford it.

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John -

 

I like your idea. Basically what your suggesting is that the drivetrain be H4-H5 legal, then we bump them 1 or more classes for the weight difference of whatever chassis they're running. Is that accurate?

 

As for the B16, it puts out about 160hp stock right? So, in say a CRX tub at H4 weight (2175 lbs), it seems like that would be a good H2 car to run against say an ITR w/ 195bhp at the 2575 lbs H2 weight.

 

13.59 lb/hp vs 13.21 lb/hp

 

Jimmy brought up a good point about the brakes though. Higher speeds merit more stopping power. What if we allow use of braking systems from the car or class that the motor was in originally? In this case, it would be H3 since the motor is a civic si motor. Basically treat going and stopping as a package that can be swapped together.

 

Just 1 idea.

 

- Scott

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I like your idea. Basically what your suggesting is that the drivetrain be H4-H5 legal, then we bump them 1 or more classes for the weight difference of whatever chassis they're running. Is that accurate?

 

I'm suggesting that that is one way it could be done. Not the only way. Reasonable people have pointed out that mixing hybrids with IT-type cars in H2 and H3 could create headaches within those classes. It's not really an issue right now on the West Coast. But as the cars for H2/3 become more affordable, it could become an issue. And the East Coast guys DO have competitors in H2/3. Have to do this in a way that doesn't spoil the soup for the current H2/3 competitors.

 

Jimmy brought up a good point about the brakes though. Higher speeds merit more stopping power. What if we allow use of braking systems from the car or class that the motor was in originally?

 

I really think the simplest way to handle issues like that are to just adopt the H1/hybrid chassis rules for any car with a swap. Spend money on brakes, plasic windows and spliters if you like, but the car still has to meet minimum weight and you still can't take the engine to a higher output level without becoming a full H1 competitor.

 

As for the specifics of the B16 and it's output, I have yet to do a comprehensive study of all the engines and their respective outputs. I will say, though, that VTEC in general and the B16 in particular will likely be the Achilles heal of this whole concept. It would be easiy to just say "no VTEC" for the LMS group. And I would be fine with that. But there are a lot of those guys out there, and that would also exclude the ZC, I think. I'd like to be as inclusive and open minded as possible.

 

Thawley

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why not create a 'spec' H2/3 engine/brake combination?

 

Here's an example:

 

Someone already has a B16 in their car, begins doing HPDE's, the motor is mildly modded(I'm kind of using myself as an example) with cams, header, intake, and exhaust(although most would just run a straight pipe w/ turndown for HC) So you give people choices.

 

B16 Bottom end MUST remain stock other than strengthening components for durability/longevity reasons.

 

Cams are limited to ONLY ITR/CTR or a cam with no more than xxx lift and xxx duration.

 

Intake manifold must be the one that came on the motor, and port/polish rules are the same across the class.(I believe it's on what 1 inch on either side?)

 

Transmissions should be free as I believe they are with H2/3/4 as in FD and LSD.(I can't remember what the mods are specifically)

 

Weight limits could be adjusted so that all classes will remain competitive from there on out.

 

As far as brakes, I agree with what was said about brakes being the ones that went with the original car the motor came from which on smaller cars would basically limit them to usually GSR/Si/EX brakes. Or even just a size limitation, GSR brakes with proper ducting on a crx or civic can be adequate enough for racing. Also, what about using this as more of a strategy battle, a good driver doesn't have to cook his brakes, so this will still leave quite a bit for competition between drivers.

 

Well those are some ideas...take what you want leave what you want, comment what you will.

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why not create a 'spec' H2/3 engine/brake combination?

 

As mentioned above, there is resistance to polluting the existing rules within H2/3.

 

Your brake suggestion falls easily within the H1 chassis rules (along with ALL the other ways to skin that cat). If the general consensus wants specific rules and weights for every imaginable brake/engine/gearbox/chassis combo, I imagine it could be looked into. But there is already resistance to allowing these LMS concepts at all. I think the more complex it gets, the less likely it will ever happen or be seriously considered.

 

You are exactly the kind of guy (HPDE-3) with the right kind of car who could use some sort of LMS rules to make the jump to Honda Challenge more easily. I think we just need to think about the greater good more than legislating our own, specific vehicle combinations.

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Your brake suggestion falls easily within the H1 chassis rules (along with ALL the other ways to skin that cat)

 

The problem I see with H1 chassis rules is that you could probably gain a significant braking advantage on an H2/3 car that has to adhere to the H2/3 brake rules. Sticking with the brakes from the car that the motor came from will probably not give the hybrid much of a competitive edge, if any, but will provide enough braking for safety.

 

Cams are limited to ONLY ITR/CTR or a cam with no more than xxx lift and xxx duration.

 

I think that opening the head any more than the existing H2-H5 rules would be a bad way to go. I think that if people want to play with the motor, they should run H1. We are trying to provide a class where people with H3/4 motors in other tubs can run without spending big bucks. If we put these cars in the H2/3 classes, it would not be fair to those existing competitors who cannot modify their cams.

 

The great thing about the H2-H5 classes as they exist is that the motor modification restrictions make the amount of power that any one car will have very predictable. This makes it (relatively) easy to level the classes by similar weight/hp numbers which in turn makes the classes very competitive. IMHO it makes perfect sense to class these LMS cars the same way that the stock cars are classed.

 

- Scott

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The problem I see with H1 chassis rules is that you could probably gain a significant braking advantage on an H2/3 car that has to adhere to the H2/3 brake rules. Sticking with the brakes from the car that the motor came from will probably not give the hybrid much of a competitive edge, if any, but will provide enough braking for safety.

 

This would be an issue only if LMS cars ARE placed in H2/3. If that happens (still a big "if") then I agree there could be a problem with open brake cars running against stock braked cars. Not sure if the "same brakes as donnor car" idea will easily work for all applications, but it will easily work for the Civics with B18a/b engines if OE-type rotors do not have to be from Hondas. FastBrakes already has a kit that uses Integra calipers and VW Corado rotors. Pretty easy/cheap solution for Civics, as all it requres is a caliper adaptor that mounts the Integra caliper to the Civic upright. But tht's just the one combo...

 

Cams are limited to ONLY ITR/CTR or a cam with no more than xxx lift and xxx duration.

 

I think that opening the head any more than the existing H2-H5 rules would be a bad way to go. I think that if people want to play with the motor, they should run H1. We are trying to provide a class where people with H3/4 motors in other tubs can run without spending big bucks. If we put these cars in the H2/3 classes, it would not be fair to those existing competitors who cannot modify their cams.

 

The great thing about the H2-H5 classes as they exist is that the motor modification restrictions make the amount of power that any one car will have very predictable. This makes it (relatively) easy to level the classes by similar weight/hp numbers which in turn makes the classes very competitive. IMHO it makes perfect sense to class these LMS cars the same way that the stock cars are classed.

 

- Scott

 

If LMS cars DO go into the H2/3 classes, that would definately be the fair and easy thing to do.

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with all do respects,

 

i think that changing the rules (to include people with various swaps already inplace) is counter productive. there are still certain rules within the current HC classes that need review. the series is still developing within its current five classes, and to add another class to the mix is rediculous.

 

i know it sucks to have swaps that arent competitive to b18 & k20 swaps, but the goal in h1 was to have the hybrids compete with the s2k's and nsx's (yet to see an nsx!) and i know that the guys that spent lots of $$ on there b16 swaps BEFORE they heard about HC are pissed because they "wont be competitive," but IMHO you should build a car to the rules, not build the rules to the car.

 

i spent lots of $$$ on various parts like GSR brakes to replace the rear drums on my hatchback, and bought a b20 a while ago, and lots of other goodies BEFORE i heard about HC. when i stumbled across the web site and went to HPDE, i was really pissed to discover that the parts i spent all my money on (to build a street car) were illegal in h4, the class i decided to run in, so i had to get rid of all those parts. i realized that i needed to build a race car though, and i wanted my inexperience to be the reason i loose, not the fact that i couldnt afford to get the k20 swap and settled for a cheaper b16 swap instead... my point is, the guys w/"LMS" could easily sell those cars to some ricer, and build a car to a class spec. IMHO that is... im not trying to offend anyone, thats just how i feel.

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with all do respects,

 

i think that changing the rules (to include people with various swaps already inplace) is counter productive. there are still certain rules within the current HC classes that need review. the series is still developing within its current five classes, and to add another class to the mix is rediculous.

 

i know it sucks to have swaps that arent competitive to b18 & k20 swaps, but the goal in h1 was to have the hybrids compete with the s2k's and nsx's (yet to see an nsx!) and i know that the guys that spent lots of $$ on there b16 swaps BEFORE they heard about HC are pissed because they "wont be competitive," but IMHO you should build a car to the rules, not build the rules to the car.

 

i spent lots of $$$ on various parts like GSR brakes to replace the rear drums on my hatchback, and bought a b20 a while ago, and lots of other goodies BEFORE i heard about HC. when i stumbled across the web site and went to HPDE, i was really pissed to discover that the parts i spent all my money on (to build a street car) were illegal in h4, the class i decided to run in, so i had to get rid of all those parts. i realized that i needed to build a race car though, and i wanted my inexperience to be the reason i loose, not the fact that i couldnt afford to get the k20 swap and settled for a cheaper b16 swap instead... my point is, the guys w/"LMS" could easily sell those cars to some ricer, and build a car to a class spec. IMHO that is... im not trying to offend anyone, thats just how i feel.

 

 

That deserves a big TRUE THAT!

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I think that the governing body and rule makers of HC have done an excellent job and I think the rules are written very well. I'm very excited to be a part of HC. I don't think that this issue is an attempt to undermine those rules at all and I hope it is not construed as such.

 

I totally understand the desire for stability and uniformity, however, in any organization it is imperitive to adapt to the wants and needs of your target audience within reason. I realize that the rules cannot bend for each special case, but if a simple and fair rule change will suddenly double the number of people that we appeal to, then it seems to me like a no brainer.

 

I know it seems crazy to say that we could double our audience just by allowing LMS hybrids to compete in lower classes without any way to back it up. So, I did a search for all of the H4 classed Civics and CRXs for sale on autotrader.com within 200 miles of my house (this covers the whole Phx metro area as well as Tucson). I figured that this would be a decent cross section of the general population of cars out there. Here's what I saw:

 

88-91 CRX Si

- Stock motor 3

- LMS 3

- Vtec 1.8 or greater 0

 

88-91 Civic Si

- Stock motor 2

- LMS 2

- Vtec 1.8 or greater 0

 

92-95 Civic Si/Ex (only went through the first 3 pages)

- Stock motor 8

- LMS 8

- Vtec 1.8 or greater 12

 

2 observations -

 

1) Nearly every vtec 1.8L or greater was modified well beyond the allowable limits of H1 while all of the cars I counted as LMS would seemingly have H2-H5 legal drivetrain setups (going on the info provided).

2) The LMS cars were on average < $500 more for a comparable car and in general they were in better shape (had fewer miles, more replaced/upgraded/modified parts).

 

Ok, now before I get flamed big time (I can feel it coming), I realize that this is neither scientific nor conclusive. What I think it does point out though is that there is a very large market out there that we as an organization are not tapping into. One of the best things that HC brings to the table is the ability to race in a fun, competitive class without forgoing your retirement fund or having to sell a kidney. These LMS cars provide a cheap, fun, readily available platform, but they would never be competitive in H1 for someone on a budget.

 

I know that it would be tricky to work this provision into the rules and that you're never going to make everyone happy, but I think that it would be worth it in the end. I also think that it might help the ailing HC2/3 classes (if it was decided that these cars would compete in those classes). Personally, I don't want to see any more classes added. I'd rather we find a way to include them in the classes we have. We already have such a variety of bodies and motors in each class that I don't really understand what is so different about adding a few more. All we really have to ask ourselves is "If Honda had made body x with motor y, where would it be classed?" and to me it seems that things would fall into place naturally with the way the rules are already written.

 

Anyway, that's enough (probably too much) from me. Feel free to flame away. I can take it.

 

- Scott

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so given that thought process, Thawley could race in H4 if he were to have a min. weight of 2480 like the 2nd Gen 'teg or 2525 (can't remember the exact weight) if the motor came out of the 3rd Gen 'teg. now lets say we do that, is he going to want 'teg brakes since he is @ 'teg weight? Is that like doing big brakes?

 

now we are in a technical rules/inspection nightmare. making sure that the cars are in compliance is going to be a huge PITA. where does it stop?

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so given that thought process, Thawley could race in H4 if he were to have a min. weight of 2480 like the 2nd Gen 'teg or 2525 (can't remember the exact weight) if the motor came out of the 3rd Gen 'teg. now lets say we do that, is he going to want 'teg brakes since he is @ 'teg weight?

 

No. That idea assumes the LMS cars going into H2/3 instead of their own class or sub-class. It is just one scenario.

 

The two objectives here are: First to face the economic realities of supply and demand in H1 and offer a lesser alternative. And second to discuss a rules scenario that would NOT be difficult to administer.

 

0x1 hit the nail on the head by looking at the cars for sale in his area. This is about economics and how to use the market of used cars and engines to grow the series and INCLUDE more people than it excludes.

 

I for one want nothing to do with a complex rules supplement that causes grief to the rules committee, the organizers or the stewards. It was the intent of this thread to find and explore reasonable options.

 

I have offered to draft a formal rules proposal. I have offered to lend my car as a test bed. I can even offer some press to promote the idea. NASA is a business, right? Why would you not want to use this as a vehicle for growth? Because it's a pain in the ass? Okay then, how many LMS cars paying entry fees each weekend would it take to justify paying a tech steward deal with what you obviously don't want to? Three? Six? Or how about you just ask if anyone is willing to do it? Just because you don't want to deal with it doesn't make it a bad idea or bad for the series.

 

We are exploring reasonable ideas. We want to help. We don't want to run H4 or H1. But there are obstacles to adding an LMS class and there are obstacles to adding LMS to H2/3. We are listening to ideas.

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John,

I never said that I didn't want to deal with it. I stated a fact. It would be an incredible PITA to inspect.

 

Perhaps you don't realize that the Regional Leaders do this because we believe in the series. We don't get paid. I would ask you to respect our work ethic & the time we put into the series.

 

It is great that you have volunteered your car to use as a test bed. How many other combo's will need to be included in your LMS class? Who will be stepping up to allow us to test them? How will we estimate power to weight ratios? Are the drivers of these LMS combos going to pay for the dyno runs? You got to have people to race against. How many people are really interested in this class? So far, it is less than the fingers on one hand on this national forum. You didn't get very much response when you posted this on H-T.com either.

 

You are correct in stating that NASA is a business. Know what, (this might get me in trouble) I don't care. My paycheck doesn't come from this. This is money pit to me & an incredible drain on my family time. I care about the long term growth of the series. IMO, this isn't the way to get it. Sometimes what is good for a few isn't good for the many.

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++OK. Now the more reasonable side is here to offer this:

 

Get us hard numbers on people who really would be in a LMS class. I mean really would race not just show up once.

 

Write up a proposal.

 

We will consider it. Keep in mind that we have already had our rules committee meeting for the 2005 rules. I can make no promises.

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I never said that I didn't want to deal with it. I stated a fact. It would be an incredible PITA to inspect.

Point taken.

 

Perhaps you don't realize that the Regional Leaders do this because we believe in the series. We don't get paid. I would ask you to respect our work ethic & the time we put into the series.

I do realize that you are volunteers, and most definitely appreciate the work you guys do (even when dealing with windowless hazards running around for no points :^)

 

How many people are really interested in this class? So far, it is less than the fingers on one hand on this national forum. You didn't get very much response when you posted this on H-T.com either.

Yeah well, R.J. killing the thread had quite an affect on the number of responses on H-T. I'm not too worried about the interest at this point. "If you build it, they will come."

 

Get us hard numbers on people who really would be in a LMS class. I mean really would race not just show up once.

That's easy: ONE. That's the hardest number I'm likely to get. But I can show interest (or lack of it). My understanding is that WCHC had about double that in "hard numbers" when it got started a few years ago. The key was the vision and commitment to getting the ball rolling. WCHC has you guys to thank for that. Wish us luck that LMS would be as successful in three years...

 

Write up a proposal. We will consider it. Keep in mind that we have already had our rules committee meeting for the 2005 rules. I can make no promises.

Thanks. No one expects promises, just fair consideration and open minds. R.J. has made it clear to me in no uncertain terms that he does not think H-T is the place to discuss this. Please direct any questions, comments or interest (pro or con) to my email address.

 

[email protected]

Subject: LMS Honda Challenge

 

Thanks.

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It seems this discussion has died, but I thought I'd make one more suggestion.

 

What about just including cars bearing the 'SiR' badge?

 

I know it's a long shot, but again just a suggestion. Since it does refer to JDM as being OEM, and although that is something I believe only applies to H1, nevertheless, in Japan, cars with the SiR badge had the B16 which is included in the LMS catagory, but had the brakes to compensate, from 89-00. Now here's another question, I have a friend I do HPDE's with, he happens to drive a real, registered JDM RHD Civic Type-R. He has Tanabe Sustec Pros, and exhaust, and a header, and he's running Hondata, but everything else is stock. What class would he be in if he decided to run HC in that car? I would think H2, but being as the EK chassis never had that motor, would he be thrown amongst the H1 bretheren? For him, it would be nice to be able to run H2, which all his mods I believe do not pass what is legal in H2 right now.

 

Anyway, that was just one more thing I thought of. Again, I appreciate all the work the guys behind the scenes are doing for HC. This will be a fun series for me to run when I feel I'm adequately prepared and can afford it reasonably. Again, if LMS cars were allowed in the lower classes, I would more than likely jump in sooner.

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Justin,

What does the CTR wiegh?

The min. weight for the ITR in H2 is 2575lbs!

 

I ran in H1 with my ITR at first because I had the Moton's at H2 weight... now I'm in H1 because of the CTR pistons and it now weighs 2450lbs.

 

Paul

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It seems this discussion has died, but I thought I'd make one more suggestion.

Everyone's suggestions are appreciated. I'm looking for all the input I can get. This thread can still act as a brainstorming forum for LMS ideas. I will likely limit my responses to new suggestions and ideas at this this point and act as more of a collector of info for the LMS topic.

 

Again, I appreciate all the work the guys behind the scenes are doing for HC. This will be a fun series for me to run when I feel I'm adequately prepared and can afford it reasonably. Again, if LMS cars were allowed in the lower classes, I would more than likely jump in sooner.

 

My hunch is you are in good company. If this can be handled properly it could welcome new racers with cars already illegal in H2-5 and perhaps eventually grow into a feeder for H1. Only time and interest will tell.

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John,

I didn't realize that RJ killed the thread. All I remembered is that it didn't last very long. It is hard to predict what he finds acceptable to discuss in regards to HC. Somethings are & some aren't....his sandbox.

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Justin,

What does the CTR wiegh?

The min. weight for the ITR in H2 is 2575lbs!

 

I ran in H1 with my ITR at first because I had the Moton's at H2 weight... now I'm in H1 because of the CTR pistons and it now weighs 2450lbs.

 

Paul

 

Paul, I believe Brandon's car with a/c, p/s, and full interior weighs in at around 2200, which is just a hair more than my CRX currently weighs. So I honestly don't know how they would class him if he decided to run HC.

 

See you next weekend!!!

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PSUCRX,

 

It looks like it would be H1 but eventually he could do a K swap and still be in the same class : )

 

 

OT...

I instructed at a PCA event this weekend besides wasting 3rd gear and a axle....there was a Porsche GT running around Firebird east!

Still doesn't beat the F1 at PIR a few weeks ago but I wouldn't drive my street car around FIR east!

 

out...

Paul

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For him, it would be nice to be able to run H2, which all his mods I believe do not pass what is legal in H2 right now.

 

As long as it was prepped to H2 rules and if he wasn't under the ITR weight of 2575 I think it would be fair to run in H2. I think we should bend over backwards to give every Honda, even JDM, a competitive place to race.

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David,

I agree if he runs H2 at 2575lbs that would be cool... but not 2200lbs if he wanted to run at 2200lbs then to me it would be a H1 car.

 

Paul

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