Mrsideways Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Just wondering why Supercharged cars and Turbocharged cars get lumped into the same 5 point wack for Forced Induction? My personal assumption is that this was added to make up for the free points now available in a reflash. Supercharged cars however can not up the boost in a reflash like turbocharged cars. So why the same 5 point base hit? How about more like 2 points? Or Zero since Reflashing an SC car isn't much different from Reflashing an N/A car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Hmm...valid argument in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrsideways Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 Could be they are accounting for someone running E85 but without changing the boost your only going to change timing in which case your gains won't be much different from an N/A car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mazur Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Very good point. A 335i can increase its power output by over 100hp with just a "flash" of the ECU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 conversley most FI cars (both turbo and supercharged) are tuned rich and retarded to be safe, thus can see more gains than an NA car would with a reflash, especially to a race gas tune. I can see both sides on this one... jus sayin remeber you always have the option of doing a "motorswap" type reclassification through Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 motorswap classification? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrsideways Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 Yeah you hear of T cars getting 50-100 hp on a reflash pretty regularly. SC cars are in the 10-15 hp range (except maybe the big power cars like the Cobra/Shelby but whats a flash worth on that?). The only N/A car that I know of reflash data for is an S2000 and that gets 10-15hp from the hondata flash. Seems pretty similar to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 send in your dyno sheet & minimum weight - you're given a new base class and no longer take any power points or weight reduction points. I bet if you were building say a SC Mini that wasn't going to use any power points and you did the "motorswap" classification, you'd come back at the same base weight and same base class but no longer be stuck with the automatic +5 from the ECU/forced induction crap. You would have to make sure the car would consistently dyno at or below what you sent in however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 (edited) I guess your Mini isnt the turbo one? lol Love mini coopers btw, one of my favorite track cars is that option open to all cars? That might help me get some points back for other things on my Z. Edited June 11, 2009 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrsideways Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 Greg's E-mail please... However that would require building the car all over again. I'd rather just like to know why the SC car takes the same 5 as a T car. Cause if that comes off just half it would make life much easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 [email protected] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Alsip Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 This is an argument that I had with a buddy the other day.... then we just realized we were agreeing. The fact that any NA car has to take point to upgrade an ECU and someone with a turbo car can just do a stage 2 reflash and get an ass-ton of horsepower is absolutely re-donk-ulous to me. I don't make the rules though. Didn't people used to have to take points for reflashes? What happened there? NASA will need to do something to keep the point assessment fair, and not "force" all of our drivers to go get these turbo cars to stay competitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 This is an argument that I had with a buddy the other day.... then we just realized we were agreeing. The fact that any NA car has to take point to upgrade an ECU and someone with a turbo car can just do a stage 2 reflash and get an ass-ton of horsepower is absolutely re-donk-ulous to me. I don't make the rules though. Didn't people used to have to take points for reflashes? What happened there? NASA will need to do something to keep the point assessment fair, and not "force" all of our drivers to go get these turbo cars to stay competitive. The rules were changed for 2009. All cars that are forced induction take +5 points. ECU FLASHES are +0 points for all cars. Piggybacks/standalones are still points however for all cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Didn't people used to have to take points for reflashes? What happened there? In the other infamous thread of late there was a whole train wreck derailment about "intent" of rules. Somewhat related to that is "enforcement" of rules. If you look at some of the rules changes of late, one of the shifts seems to be making the rules more easily enforceable in the field. Example A: We had a couple people post about aftermarket front fascias. One being for the S2k; another for the Mustang. In both cases - the result was "if it's aftermarket take points". I know with splitters there used to be different points based on how far out the splitter stuck but then it became an issue of where do you measure from. So now it's a lot of points for a splitter regardless of measurement. Same kind of thing = make it easier to tech/inspect car at the track. Example B: Reflashes. Simply - how do you enforce this? Especially in a diverse class like PT/TT? I know both SCCA and NASA have had concerns about ECU's in Spec Miata, this has been solved by having drivers swap ECU's sometimes even. But - as mentioned above - when you have a bunch of different cars that doesn't quite work. So since there is no easy way to enforce, may as well make it a points free mod. I don't always like the result of this philosophy (I drive an NA car and take points for engine management since my ECU can't be chipped/reflashed) but I understand the rationale. It will be interesting to see how PT/TT sorts out the next couple of years. Right now - it does seem like things are working. In my region (OH/IN) we typically have 6-8 cars in TTE of widely different makes and yet there is some pretty close competition. You can always poke holes in rules/assumptions under the microscope online, but in the real world - things seem to be going ok so far. - Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 and the +5 auto-assessment was to take into account the difference between what NA cars were charged for a reflash vs what FI cars were charged for a reflash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Alsip Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Good info here, but I have to wonder if 5 points is enough. (sorry turbo guys ) Enter examples: FG2 Civic Si: http://www.cobbtuning.com/products/?id=4472 This gets you up to 5% horsepower and 4% torque, which on a car that dynos around 175 whp would be 184 whp. Wooohooo! Infiniti G35: http://www.cobbtuning.com/products/?id=3687 This gets you 3.8% HP and 1.5% TQ MazdaSpeed 3: http://www.cobbtuning.com/products/?id=4100 This gets you 16.3% HP and 16.9% TQ GC Subaru WRX: http://www.cobbtuning.com/products/?id=3264 This gets you up to 15% HP and 20% TQ Wowzers. I can give many many many more examples, but you get the point. So, we have 5 points to make up that difference, you say? Well, logical mods on an NA car are Intake (+1), header (+2), and exhaust (+2). Now, let's see how much power we need to make up just to achieve similar results... 175 * 1.15 = 201.25 WHP Eeekk Maybe I'm splitting hairs here but when I went to take a look at the reflashes, it didn't seem very fair there. I dunno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrsideways Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 The point here isn't that Turbo cars get more out of the 5 points then N/a it's between turbo and supercharged. I think Supercharged cars are getting a raw deal since they can't play with boost with reflash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundguydave Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 In this particular case, though, I think the reflash rule is coming from the opposite direction: enforcement. Unless the director carries a strategy reader, with all of the factory codes and parameters listed, there's no way to REALLY confirm that a given car has or has not been flashed/chipped. Thus, we have a "no point mod" to ease rule enforcement. Given that it is a no-point mod, though, that gives a SERIOUS advantage to the FI cars, turbos more than blowers, that I agree needs to be offset. For the Mustang GT (S197 chassis), as an example, N/A can pick up 30 or so HP with an intake tube and computer reflash, but the "tuner version" of any of the blown variants, with just a flash, can pull up to 70 additional HP. If a car has an electronic waste-gate on a turbo, that is controlled by the PCM, then the sky is effectively the limit. I've seen a GOLF TEE double the power on a WRX, but for a blower car, you really need to change pullies, which does have a line-item. Now, the question centers on how to equalize the performance between a NA, blower and turbo car. Making a reflash a no-point mod essentially forces the competitor to get the car tuned, but a) that's not that expensive, and b) it's essentially common practice anyway. If you go to +5 for the FI cars, you give a break to the NA guys, so that they don't need to drop VERY large coin to get boosted just to stay competitive. All that is fine, if you ask me. It also makes a lot of sense. The next step is to determine exactly how to achieve parity between the blower and turbo cars. My suggestion would be to establish the base amount of boost, and then charge points for additional boost. If the car is "factory" delivered with 4 PSI of boost, and you up it to 8PSI, then that would cost "X" points. Up it to 12PSI, and it costs "Y" points. Enforcement would be pretty simple, as well. A basic, handheld vac/boost gauge, and one wide-open pass through a couple of gears to redline will demonstrate EXACTLY how much boost that particular car is making. No need for a dyno, datalogging, etc. Under these circumstances, the reflash penalty would be a moot point, since you would be assessing based on the actual compressor performance, and not adding a blanket points cost. No extra boost? No extra points, as they are already assessed for the compressor in the base classing. We could get into hair splitting, about how massaged heads, exhaust, cams, etc. affect the amount of boost shown versus actual airflow ("boost" is a function of flow restriction), but by the time points are added up for all of that, you're getting into the MUCH higher classes, and a trip to the dyno with a "sealed" ECM port would be enough to demonstate compliance on a strict power to weight basis. Personally, I think the assessment is heading very much in the right direction, and some basic refinement will only make it more fair, without serious increase in enforcement difficulty. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrsideways Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 Ugg, My point is being overlooked. I'm trying to say I think it would be "MORE" fair to still give SC cars a Point or two, but they should be less standard points then a Turbo car due to not being able to move boost on a reflash. I think an SC car will pick up more then an N/a car on the reflash but it's only marginally more vs the 20% gains the turbo cars are getting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Alsip Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 The point here isn't that Turbo cars get more out of the 5 points then N/a it's between turbo and supercharged. I think Supercharged cars are getting a raw deal since they can't play with boost with reflash. I know, I was merely showing that there exists even a difference between the turbo and NA cars as well. I agree with you 100%. Your point is that you have to take additional points for a s/c pulley when a turbo car can just get reflashed to up the boost. Yes, it's a raw deal. Yes, it's completely unfair. The only thing we did was add NA cars into the discussion as well. But hey, it could be worse... you can't even reflash my car. That's a 0 pt mod that I can't even use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrsideways Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 Well there's lots of 0 point mods that lots of people can't use. But that's a darn good point. Turbo cars get 5 points for a 20% gain or so Supercharged cars get a 9 points (reflash + pulley) for essentially the same gain. N/A cars get 0 points for a 5-10 % gain. Greg, I assume he's the one who can change this.... what's his opinion? IMHO Fair would be give the SC cars 1 point + pulley. To make it even at 5 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Alsip Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 That sounds good to me. Another option would be upping the points for turbo cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meat Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 That sounds good to me. Another option would be upping the points for turbo cars. I don't think that would fly. Taking 5 points is bad enough- if anything drop a point or two for the supercharged cars but don't add any more for the turbo'd guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixR34 Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 NASA will need to do something to keep the point assessment fair, and not "force" all of our drivers to go get these turbo cars to stay competitive. How do you figure? Nationals 2008 Winners: TTR: Radical SR8 (not turbo) TTU: Corvette (not turbo) TTS: Corvette (not turbo) TTA: EVO TTB: EVO TTC: S2000 (not turbo) TTD: Miata (might be, might not..) TTE: Miata (not turbo) So, two definite turbo cars won nationals, possibly three, depending on whether or not it was a Mazdaspeed Miata. 5 or 6 N/A cars. In Arizona and SoCal, the two regions I participate in, records are getting beat by naturally aspirated cars.. and ones that aren't even close to the HP/WT limit of the classes. The problem is, like with this case and the SPC ball joints, people are asking NASA to examine every possible modification and their effect on every single car, then justify the points assessment. YOUR Mini might not benefit from a reflash because it's supercharged, so perhaps the 5 points aren't justified (I beg to differ, however, as a TTC Mini annihilated one of Greg Greenbaum's records in Phoenix recently). However, a Mustang or some other supercharged car might see a huge gain. IMO, the rulebook is thick enough as it is. If you don't like it, change classes, change cars, or re-class based on power to weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomn29 Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 NASA will need to do something to keep the point assessment fair, and not "force" all of our drivers to go get these turbo cars to stay competitive. How do you figure? Nationals 2008 Winners: TTR: Radical SR8 (not turbo) TTU: Corvette (not turbo) TTS: Corvette (not turbo) TTA: EVO TTB: EVO TTC: S2000 (not turbo) TTD: Miata (might be, might not..) TTE: Miata (not turbo) So, two definite turbo cars won nationals, possibly three, depending on whether or not it was a Mazdaspeed Miata. 5 or 6 N/A cars. Keep in mind, as they were configured last year, the 'turbo' 2008 TTA and TTB National winners aren't legal for their respective classes this year. In fact, both cars have moved up and are competing in higher classes in 2009. Both have 5 extra base points now with the FI penalty. Also the TTA car got a fancy * ; so it's 12 base points higher now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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