Cory M Posted June 12, 2009 Posted June 12, 2009 SCCA Spec Miata just inked a deal for RA1's in the 2010 season: http://www.scca.com/newsarticle.aspx?hub=1&news=3661 I guess this means there will still be supply, at least in 205's LET THE TIRE JIHAD BEGIN Quote
mcmmotorsports Posted June 12, 2009 Posted June 12, 2009 SCCA Spec Miata just inked a deal for RA1's in the 2010 season: http://www.scca.com/newsarticle.aspx?hub=1&news=3661" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I guess this means there will still be supply, at least in 205's LET THE TIRE JIHAD BEGIN http://944spec.org/944SPEC/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,30/func,view/id,4812/catid,25/ Quote
roberth944 Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 My thought on this is why don't we make the R888 and the Ra1 legal? Everyone can buy whatever tire they want at what ever price they can get. they all have the same opportunity to get these tires so it's fair right? 205 or 225 RA1 or 225 R888. That way there will be no one saying they have a new set they can't use. If 205's are better any one can use them. If R888's are better in the rain then great, everyone can use them.This also give people the chance to shop for the best deals on tires or find good take off's just so long as they are the Toyo's in the right size. I think this should be discussed for the new rules next year. Cheap racing is the key and everyone has the same opportunity to buy these tires while using up the ones we have. my thoughts, Rob Quote
Chuck T. Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 All good thoughts Rob . being a "SPEC" series it's ideal if we all run the same exact car. that is not possible but if we can limit the differences between cars it's more "SPEC" . So next year if we change tires or sizes it will be because it's better for the whole group and the whole group will be back on the same tire . The 225/50/15 RA1 and the R888 are legal for 944-spec. NASA said so. Nationals is going to be a blast R888 or RA1 ! Quote
Big Dog Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 Chuck, if someone that I am racing with on the track is on RA1's, I will go to them as well because I believe they are either faster or will stay more consistent during a race. I ran 888's last year at Miller and found that they would get hot and go away toward the end of the race. Based on that, I would be inclined to run RA1's. Do we really want to have a "Tire War" at National's? Guys testing with both to see which will give them an edge? Low cost racing seems to go out the window with that program. Norm and I have had this discussion. We would both like to see everyone stay on 888's for Nationals. I have no confidence that will happen though. I think that if anyone sees a guy they are racing with, or hoping to race with, go to RA1's, they will too and then others around them will respond by going to RA1's and it will spread. I know that I will switch if someone that is close to me on the time charts is running RA1's, I will switch. It would be nice to get EVERYONE to commit to 888's at Nationals. I do understand that some may not be willing to do so. After all, the rules allow RA1's and I would not think of this as "cheating" or poor sportsmanship or anything else. Because of the wear issue, there are legimate financial reasons to choose RA1's. While I would like to see everyone on 888's, my real point here is that we should all know if some plan to run RA1's so we can all make our tire plans in advance. With that said, can we get a thread going so we all can know what everyone is planning? Otherwise, I will plan on using RA1's at Nationals so I can be ready and not caught short there with the wrong tire. Big Dog. Quote
dmdirks Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 I start off... Michelle and I are both running R888's at Nationals! Quote
roberth944 Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 I just found a guy on ebay selling the 205 50 15 rA1's for $105.00 + $20.00 shipping!!!!! That 's low cost racing!!!! I don't think a tire war should start but if it can cost me less for a tire that we know holds up better and lasts longer and is cheaper that's pretty much the end of the agument as far as I think? The 205 RA1 will be plentiful if the Miata crowd is using them so everyone can get a set. I think we should work this out sooner than later so people can use up the tires they now have and not buy a set later in the year that may be obsolete. Then the old tire sizes should still be ok untill people can use up their 225's. Quote
Chuck T. Posted June 14, 2009 Posted June 14, 2009 The Plan is Dirks's , Eban Bell, Dave Wright ,Chris Venturini , Weston , #67 and #913 and most if not all of RMR will be on R888s . If you want to run RA1's at Nationals "just do it" but have FUN . This is all important for Next year and we shall have a good plan by then. Quote
Norman#99 Posted June 16, 2009 Posted June 16, 2009 To make the best of what we have to work with, you should probably pick the tire that your closest competitors are using, I went to mylaps and looked at the cars I was close in times with at MMP last year and should use the same tires that they are using. One race was 12 laps and the other 11 laps. At PIR (1.5 miles) depending on the number of heat cycles on 888's there can be a half sec.(new) to 2 seconds (older) difference. With a 3 mile track it could be the same or larger, (strange thing I noticed twice in a ra1 vs 888 race is that the ra1's accelerated faster than 888's, both ra1's were older with little tread, so shorter diameter with less weight) so with an 11 or 12 lap race, this could change your finishing time upto 20 seconds and looking at the total lap times below, you can see the out come of your race can be changed with all other racing circumstances being equal. Jim Foxx had the unofficial fast lap of the weekend Dave Dirks was really fast and says he is using 888's so my plan is to use 888's unless more people around my times are going ra1's. Showing up to a spoon fight with a shovel just doesn't sound fair, so we should communicate what weapon we are going to show up with to plan accordingly. I agree with Chuck, just show up and have fun, but choosing the rite tire will add to the fun. This is Saturdays race results http://mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=849630" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; on the 3.0 mile outer course Pos No. Name Laps Total time Diff Best time Il lap Best speed 8 30 Richard Lofgren 12 28:32.137 1:04.797 2:22.005 11 76.054 9 99 Norman Hamden 12 28:33.181 1:05.841 2:23.295 12 75.369 10 00 Glenn Saucier 12 28:35.073 1:07.733 2:23.341 12 75.345 11 94 Josef Paluch II 12 28:39.268 1:11.928 2:23.727 12 75.142 12 152 Terry McDermott 12 28:42.765 1:15.425 2:24.748 12 74.612 13 12 James Foxx 12 28:43.785 1:16.445 2:24.388 12 74.798 15 76 David Dirks 12 28:55.319 1:27.979 2:23.665 12 75.175 This is from http://mylaps.com/results/showrun.jsp?id=849633" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Sundays race on the 4.5 mile course Pos No. Name Laps Total time Diff Best time In lap Best speed 11 99 Norman Hamden 11 36:48.097 3:10.724 3:32.887 9 50.731 12 76 David Dirks 11 36:49.408 3:12.035 3:33.713 5 50.535 13 30 Richard Lofgren 11 37:02.736 3:25.363 3:33.821 8 50.510 14 94 Josef Paluch II 11 37:04.581 3:27.208 3:33.152 10 50.668 15 12 James Foxx 11 37:06.383 3:29.010 3:33.407 6 50.608 Quote
944-Spec#94 Posted June 16, 2009 Posted June 16, 2009 I will be running the R888 at national. Despite the talk I have a feeling that they will be faster at Miller than the RA-1. Why? High speed corners demand grip vs sliding. The RA-1 is a great pitch and catch tire, but I don't believe Miller is a pitch and catch track. Maybe I will be wrong. We will find out in September. Now on the spec tire thing. 944 spec is a SPEC TIRE CLASS. This means one tire size and one tire brand/type. The reason for two tires in 2009 is due only to the transition. Quote
Chuck T. Posted June 16, 2009 Posted June 16, 2009 based on qual times ... 2:22 to 2:24 is going to be a blast ! Quote
Weston Posted June 16, 2009 Posted June 16, 2009 I'm planning on R888's at Nationals. I have a set of worn RA-1's from 2007 that I may bring as a backup, but I don't expect to be on fresh RA-1's. I'd prefer new RA-1's over R888's, but it doesn't make sense to go blow money on another set of tires, just so I can get an edge by taking advantage of the fact that not everyone can get them or afford to play this silly tire game. In a perfect world, we'd all race exactly the same car and we'd have a perfectly level playing field here. Realistically, we have some people being clever or opportunistic when it comes to what's allowed by the rules, so the rest of us have to do our own share of that to get "up to speed", but the tire game is really further than I'm willing to go. Everything else that we do is at least available to everyone, but when it comes to RA-1's in our size, there just aren't enough for everyone, so that's different. Quote
944cer Posted June 17, 2009 Posted June 17, 2009 Ease up there Weston. There are lots of things I could do to make my car just a little faster. All cost money and time. At this point, it's the seat time I need the most. Nothing is ever completly fair. In my opinion, you get out of racing what you put into it. Tires, camber plates, tracmate, suspension set-up, seat time...all make a difference in how competative you want to be, espesialy on a national level. We will be running with the best from around the country. I am using Nationals a learning experience. I've never been to a national event even way back when autocrossing. It will be intimidating, callenging and exciting. Enjoy our adiction for what it is and what we want to put into it. At my car prep and skill level, tires are a small issue. Quote
944-Spec#94 Posted June 17, 2009 Posted June 17, 2009 I have never been to any form of Nationals either. Closest thing was last year's Miller when we had drivers from all over racing. Still that was a purely fun event so not the pressue of a National. So this year I am not sure what it expect. What I plan on doing is going and just running the best I can. I don't want to let the "National Championship" aspect the event make it into something with more pressure than fun. My goal is not to win or even a podium. Really I will be happy with deicent showing in the upper part of the field. Here in Az I have at times won and other times worked very very hard just to make top 5. It all depend on who shows and how fast they really are. I can see myself doing very well or being just outside the fast group looking in. Either way I want to have fun and enjoy the event. I have committed to the R888s and will work hard to get the best form them. I still have an open diff and it possible my car is not a "perfect" as it needs to be. Oh well.. I will make what I have work and I get beat so be it. I will not let that spoil a nice weekend. So pressure? My goal is to not let the "pressure" take any fun away. If I finish really well great. If I am merely average fine. I am not going drive over my head or stress if I can't keep up with the Norms, Ricks or Dirks of the 944 world. Quote
Chuck T. Posted June 17, 2009 Posted June 17, 2009 Hey Lee (or any of our racers) you can use my traqmate . it is battery powered so it's east to move from car to car. Lay down your best lap then make it better . Quote
944cer Posted June 17, 2009 Posted June 17, 2009 Thanks Chuck. I very much like to do that at the PMP Beach Party. I have seriously considered one. I have a feeling my biggest car issue right now is lack of front camber. I have the most I can get without a camber plate or something. After watching Weston's video of our race I could see I'd loose ground on several corners and catch-up only to loose it again in the same corners. I hope to measure it with Dave's gauge. I do have to admit though...it could very well be my driving! Quote
Chuck T. Posted June 18, 2009 Posted June 18, 2009 camber is my gauge... I will bring it to the beach party for you. Weston has a trick for getting more camber out of the fronts he or we or I will show it to you. Quote
Weston Posted June 18, 2009 Posted June 18, 2009 I'm just saying that we should working more towards "low cost equal racing", rather than away from it. There will always be ways to spend more money than the next guy, but as I said, the tire issue is a bit different because they aren't available to everyone (due to the supply quantity, as well as the budget impact of the ridiculous timing of that announcement). Yeah, it's legal and I wont hate people who run RA-1's, but personally I think we should run R888's in the interests of equal racing, since that's what so many of us had already committed to before we got blindsided by the RA-1 announcement. I can afford to go buy a set of brand new RA-1's today if I want, but I wouldn't feel right about taking advantage of this particular situation, and I don't think that's a wise way to spend my money either. I guess I just don't get why some people aren't wanting to play on a level field. If everyone's so determined to one-up the next guy, then I know how to play that game too, but I'd just rather not have to resort to that. camber is my gauge... I will bring it to the beach party for you. Weston has a trick for getting more camber out of the fronts he or we or I will show it to you. The camber is fairly simple on these cars... For the front, one of those bolts on the bottom of the strut is an eccentric that you can adjust. With R888's, we only want a little over 3 degrees in the front, and I think you can probably accomplish that with just the factory adjustment. For the rear, the adjuster is an eccentric that's on the same bolt that the sway bar uses, and it's easy to have way too much camber. We only want about 2.5 degrees for R888's, and I had to adjust mine quite a bit to get it down to around there. Be sure to set your toe any time you change camber or caster. Quote
Capt Squid Posted June 20, 2009 Posted June 20, 2009 Our 944 Spec group in POC allows either RA-1s or 888s for 2009. I have continued to run RA-1s because they last longer. When I decided to go to Miller, the 888 was the spec tire and I budgeted to run 888s at the event. Although I have RA-1s that I could run at Miller, I still plan on buying 888s to run there. It would really take some of the fun out of the great 944 racing if part of the group has to worry about which tire to run or have the added expense of buying RA-1s. At the end of the day RA-1s should not be an excuse for why someone beat you. The excuses should be: 1) My tires were old. 2) My nitrous bottle was empty. 3) The sun was in my eyes. I for one am looking forward to some close racing and having fun like Chuck said. Evil RA1s be damned! Quote
944cer Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 The camber is fairly simple on these cars... For the front, one of those bolts on the bottom of the strut is an eccentric that you can adjust. With R888's, we only want a little over 3 degrees in the front, and I think you can probably accomplish that with just the factory adjustment. For the rear, the adjuster is an eccentric that's on the same bolt that the sway bar uses, and it's easy to have way too much camber. We only want about 2.5 degrees for R888's, and I had to adjust mine quite a bit to get it down to around there. Be sure to set your toe any time you change camber or caster. I have as much as I can get out of the fronts with the factory eccentric bolts. I have used the jack under the rotor method already. I really need to put a gauge on them and find out instead of guessing. Quote
944-Spec#94 Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 If you are trying to se camber without a gauge you will not have good results. In fact camber needs to be se on level ground as 0.5 deg is pretty common for side to side slope. Also, What have been hearing is that there is possibility that thew 205/50 R15 RA-1 produced for SM may not be exactly the same as our good old RA-1 we are used to. Some say it is the R888 Compound stuffed in an RA-1 mold. Some even say the newer RA-1 don't last like the old RA-1. More drama... and more reason to wait a see a bit before we change everything again. Quote
Chuck T. Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 I would guess you are correct Joe. They are not going to make a whole different tire just for NASA and SCCA to race on. They will use some of what they have to make it cost less. WE shall see ! Quote
944cer Posted June 22, 2009 Posted June 22, 2009 What? I thought Porsche was the best in German engineering and manufacturing. I just take measurements off the fender lip and tire sidewall to maximize and equalize camber settings! Hmmm...maybe I should actually measure and acurately set an alignment and then keep it on the pavement to save the settings...hahaha Quote
cbuzz Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 If you are serious about running at the front then you better bring both tires to Nationals. Which ever one is faster will be the choice of the front pack. Since both are legal this should not be an issue. Tires (RA-1) are available. I am bringing both just in case. I will race the faster tire unless all agree to run the R888. If we all agree to run the R888 and the RA-1 is faster then I will use those in GTS-1. It is a long way to go to be beat by tire selection. IMO And yes have fun!!!!!! This is all for some cash and a plastic trophy. Charles Buzzetti #999 Quote
944-Spec#94 Posted June 23, 2009 Posted June 23, 2009 Trying to race on both with not produce good results. The camber settings alone won't allow you to swap between tires and get optimum lap times. If you re set-up the car and adjust driving style it might be possible. However back to back it won't work. This one reason I am NOT getting RA-1's. I am dailing in my car for R888 and don't need the RA-1 to cloud the issue. Quote
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