66GT350 Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 Need clarification on the main diference between "A Sedan" and "B Production". I plan on running a '66 Mustang Fastback parading around like a GT350R. Which class would that fit into? Does anyone know what the legal set up is for that car in either class? Etc... Etc... Etc... Also, would my cage come into question for vintage rules??? http://homepage.mac.com/jpaikos/PhotoAlbum9.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pederb Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 A Sedan and B Production is VARA classes so you have to check with a VARA rule book. I have not read up fully on VARA rules yet. http://pub21.ezboard.com/bvintageautoracingassociation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted November 25, 2004 Members Share Posted November 25, 2004 Another good source for information is HSR's website: http://www.hsrrace.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAI Racing Posted November 26, 2004 Share Posted November 26, 2004 Peter, A Sedan was the club racing version of Trans-Am. In vintage racing circles, it is a pretty common moniker. B Production was the US version of FIA Group 2 (as I recall). A GT350 was (along with the small block Vette) the definitive BP car (historically) and also ran FIA group 2 (again as I recall). Generally the notch back cars ran A Sedan or Trans Am. As I understand the AIV rules, they are designed to encompass cars which are currently classified in vintage racing but which also would fall within the intent of American Iron (pony cars). Like Potter Stewart said, "...I know it when I see it." Feel free to shoot me an email or get my number from John and I can point you in the right direction. Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95CobraR Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 A GT350 was (along with the small block Vette) the definitive BP car (historically) and also ran FIA group 2 (again as I recall). Generally the notch back cars ran A Sedan or Trans Am. It was officially called the Trans American Sedan series and later became known as Trans-Am. In it's first year [1966] Mustangs won 4 of the seven races and the championship (Mid-America, VIR [yes], Green Valley [TX], and Riverside). It is a production car with a back seat. The Mustangs were sedans as they were thought of as lighter than the fastback. B-production (BP) included the GT350, GT350R and the Vette (no back seats). I've read the AIV rules but still have no idea what is what? As a 14 year member of HSR & SVRA, the rules in vintage vary with the sanctioning group. SVRA requires period correct mods (except safety), and HSR is much more relaxed in their rule package. Each of the other eight or so vintage groups are also a bit different in their approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95CobraR Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 A Sedan and B Production is VARA classes so you have to check with a VARA rule book. I have not read up fully on VARA rules yet. Hey Peder, I assume the #13 '65 Mustang (the one you posted on c-c.com) is not legal in AIV? VARA vintage rules are very strict and no other vintage group would allow the #13 car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pederb Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 No that's a pure AI/X car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racercosmo Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 I think the new rules are for period styled cars. If you have a mild motor, 4 speed trans, 15x8" wheels, bias tires, etc. I doubt that any true vintage correct car would pass the safety rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff F Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 I have to admit I'm a bit puzzled by the AIV rules. When I read them, I was thinking the same thing as cosmo-- that most cars running/legal for the vintage classes in question are not going to meet NASA's safety regulations, especially when it comes to cages. Unless accomodations are made to accept vintage-style cages, I don't see where the cars are going to come from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAI Racing Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 As I understand it the goal was to give guys who are "racing" with VARA and HSR and opportunity to come enjoy NASA. The goal was to get car that are legal A/S, T/A and BP cars (and also fit the intent of AI) to come out and play. I believe that is why the rules (which are intentionally very flexible) are drawn so that the the cars must get pre-approval from the local series director. I think that is the long and short of it... If you have a "vintage" car (and I'd bet you know whether car is "vintage race" or not) and you want to run a NASA event, you show up, let the series director have a look at it and if it has the normal safety items, you will get to go play on the track longer than you would at a VARA or similar event, for less money. On a personal note, this is something that has been eating at me... Does anyone who has seen Dreier's orange Mustang really think that car is remotely close to the intent or definition of "vintage racing"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted November 30, 2004 Members Share Posted November 30, 2004 As I understand it the goal was to give guys who are "racing" with VARA and HSR and opportunity to come enjoy NASA. The goal was to get car that are legal A/S, T/A and BP cars (and also fit the intent of AI) to come out and play. I believe that is why the rules (which are intentionally very flexible) are drawn so that the the cars must get pre-approval from the local series director. I think that is the long and short of it... If you have a "vintage" car (and I'd bet you know whether car is "vintage race" or not) and you want to run a NASA event, you show up, let the series director have a look at it and if it has the normal safety items, you will get to go play on the track longer than you would at a VARA or similar event, for less money. Exactly! There are quite a few people running with HSR in the SE that wanted to come play but knew they wouldn't be competitive with AI or AIX cars if they maintain their Vintage status (ie. drum breaks, etc ) - they are considered safe by vintage standards and we plan to require them to show us their logbooks from the vintage race series to prove that can run in AI/V. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95CobraR Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 I have to admit I'm a bit puzzled by the AIV rules. When I read them, I was thinking the same thing as cosmo-- that most cars running/legal for the vintage classes in question are not going to meet NASA's safety regulations, especially when it comes to cages. Unless accomodations are made to accept vintage-style cages, I don't see where the cars are going to come from. Jeff, I am also puzzled. In the rules for the class it mentions HSR and SVRA rules. They are totally different. I race both of them. Which one are they going to use? Some vintage classes allow "period correct" cages/rollbars. Others require updated safety. Me? I am perfectly happy with the safety of my car (I am an advocate of the best safety you can acquire before you even think about faster lap times). I have a new fuel bladder in my cell (AI doesn't even require a fuel cell), a racing seat attached properly (!) to the roll bar (it's a full cage), a 6-point harness (new), a fire system (new/updated), an emergency switch which actiually turns of ALL power, a head/neck restaint system , a SN00 helmet, a window net, 14 years of door to door racing experience, & etc. Not many AI/AIX cars have the same safety systems. What are the set-up requirments? Are you allowing current tech (Porsche type brakes, strokers, Richmond trannies, light weight modern clutches, wings, etc.)? Or, should the cars be as raced in AS and BP as they did in the 60's and early 70's?? It doesn't address any of this. Narrowed rear ends? Vintage rubber? It's very confusing. Me? I plan to run with NASA SE. It's a great group. Can I get my buddies to run (I've run with them 5-14 years so we know each other very well)? I have no idea since I can't explain to them what is going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAI Racing Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Jim, since you are the SE guy, maybe you can explain it more clearly than I did or you did in your first attempt... Cobra, tell your buddies that NASA is running a vintage pony car class. That should be pretty straight forward. It seems to me that "vintage" should be pretty obvious. The rules were left ambiguous to be inclusive. Maybe people were given too much credit? Should the rules read "No wings: this includes funny car wings, F1 car wings, F2 car wings, F3 wings, F3000 wings, F Atlantic wings, champ car wings, IRL wings, Indy light wings, sprint car wings or IPS wings"? And then would someone decide that they could put a wing off of an unlimited hydroplane on thier car and say "Hey! I've got me a vintage race car here!"? Would the rule makers need to go through every single aspect of the car in that same way? All this hypothetical stuff is really sort of pissing in the wind until people show up with cars. Do you guys not know what a pre '72 vintage Trans-Am car looks like? Common sense needs to be exercised. Show up with a car and let your regional tech/director worry about then. If you are really worried that your car won't pass, maybe shoot a call into your regional director before the race with your specific issue. I know you east coast guys are more active with the vintage cars, but I'd put a case of beer up that no more than 3 AIV type cars show up to any one west coast event. I will occasionally be one of them. And, I know what is and what isn't vintage legal on my car and until I am at the track, with another AIV car who actually gives a crap, I am not going to worry about the stuff that isn't exactly period correct. In case you are curious. This is the first west coast AIV car. http://images.realride.com/cgi-bin/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=ASC_and_NASA_at_Vegas_11-04&image=DSC00221.JPG&img=8&tt= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff F Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 I'm not questioning the performance modification aspect of the class-- I think you are correct that there won't be a lot of competition, and that the directors can wing it as far as performance mods. "I can't tell you what vintage is, but I know it when I see it" about sums it up. I'm more interested in what is going to be accepted from a safety standpoint, especially the cage. You two know the vintage scene better than I do-- how many of the cars out there meet the NASA CCR? Do the cages have the proper tubing sizes? Do the main hoops have diagonals? The way the rules are written, just because your car is safety-legal with one of the vintage groups doesn't mean it's OK with NASA. I have two reasons for my interest in this. The first is just my desire to see participation from more vintage cars... more participation is good for everyone, and in particular the fact that they're the coolest cars on the track, IMO. The second is that I have a relative that is building up a '65 Mustang as a vintage-spec car, right down to the bias-plies. He isn't even sure what he's going to do with it. It's a track-only car, but he hasn't decided if he'll just do open track stuff, or race it on ocassion. NASA is much more attractive to him than the vintage organizations, but he doesn't know if his car will be legal. I know that his cage is 1.5x.095 Chromoly, and it's a vintage-type design, so he couldn't enter it as an AI car as it doesn't meet the CCR. If he wanted to race NASA AIV, would he have to go get a logbook from another organization first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted December 1, 2004 Members Share Posted December 1, 2004 Me? I plan to run with NASA SE. It's a great group. Can I get my buddies to run (I've run with them 5-14 years so we know each other very well)? I have no idea since I can't explain to them what is going on. Come to the NASA-SE Annual Awards & Karting Party at Victory Lane in January and we'll map out what we think the rules should be to satisfy all of the SE AI/V drivers - or shoot me an email and we'll outline what we think will be best for everyone who wants to race AI/V. As far as cars, I know we already have the west coast beat, between your '65, David Smith's '75, Henkel's '70 and my '68 - we have 4 regulars for next year! yours: http://www.nasa-southeast.com/2004jun19/asst/images/IMG_2818_JPG.jpg David's: http://www.nasa-southeast.com/2004Sep04/dsmith/images/Snow%20Shoe%202004%20015_jpg.jpg Gary's: http://www.americaniron-east.com/drivers/ghenkel15/ghenkel15.jpg Mine: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbasf Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 That is a sweet car Jim.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racercosmo Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 As I read the rules, it has to be CCR compliant for safety items, which would include a real seat, 1.75"x .095 cage for cars up to 3,000 lbs and 1.75"x.120 for cars over 3,000, a fire system, breathers and catch tanks, etc. I have seen very few vintage race cars that would meet the CCR. By the way Sean, is your car supposedly vintage spec? In all of my years with HMSA, I have not seen many T/A cars with electric fans, Pole Position upper arms, late model alternator, etc. I'll hold judgement on the MSD box, None of our cars had them ,but a few guys might hide them somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95CobraR Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 It seems to me that "vintage" should be pretty obvious. Do you guys not know what a pre '72 vintage Trans-Am car looks like? Show up with a car and let your regional tech/director worry about then. In case you are curious. This is the first west coast AIV car. The term "vintage" can be applied to any pre-'72 (or '75) pony car. Every vintage group has different things that are allowed. Valve train: some allow a full roller, some allow only roller rockers, and some don't allow any rollers (you have to run it as delivered by factory). Brakes: some allow slight upgrades (say a Lincoln caliper instead of the original K-H), some allow any upgrade as long as it fits inside the wheel (guys spend $3000 to mod a modern Porsche 4 piston caliper to fit), and some require you use only what was available from the manufacturer in that model in the year of production. I think Jim has answered my question. If it has a vintage logbook (from any series), it is in AIV. Since HSR has the less strict rule package that would allow any modern mod that a guy can afford to do within HSR's rules (no wings, but you can stick a NASCAR engine in it). I'll tell everyone that they should bring their vintage logbook. Very nice looking Camaro. That car looks HSR legal, but SVRA (and most others) would send it home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racercosmo Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 I haven't done much racing with HSR other than GTP and Can-Am, so I'm not too familiar with their rules. HMSA is pretty strict on T/A cars, you even need period correct block and cylinder heads. Not that somebody would race a $750,000 car in AI, but I know a few of the T/a cars have 1.5"x .o very too thin roll cages. The 69 Penske/Donahue Camaro has .049 wall tubing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAI Racing Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Wow, bitchen Mustang! Cosmo, HMSA is Steve Earl's group right? As I understand it, if a car doesn't have real history that it is not eligable for Historic Trans Am no matter how period legal. The guys who did my chassis mods (Maeco in Norhtridge) do a lot of Historic TA cars and also a fair amount of VARA cars. There is clearly a world of difference. As I understood it that Penske car was actually 0.40 in 1969 because the 0.60 wall in the '68 car held up so well after they dropped it off a cliff. As I said, my car is in a grey area. There are things like those boss pole position arms, lack of fender wells, MSD, etc. that clearly will have the car in the margain and other things like the Delco Moraine brakes, 15x8 wheels, steel fenders, steel (opening) doors and bias ply Hoosier TDs that are clearly "vintage". VARA and HSR on the west coast are very lax and I have already been approved to run A/S with them. If participation grows, then I think it would make sense to begin retro-fitting the non-period items. As for the safety stuff, I think that if you can support that your car's safety is currently legal for racing in SCCA (my car was still classified as a GT1 eligable car in the GCR which means that I can run my 4130 -0.095 cage per the GTCS) or other traditional sanctioning bodies you have probably made a good arguement to the regional director to allow the car. Additionally, if you have HSR or VARA rules, bring them along when you go for approval to show that another group is allowing it. It is all about building your case. The fail safe is the car-by-car approval regime which should prevent the guys with "muffler tubing" roll bars from getting on track in a race group. As I understand it, this is really meant to be for fun and to allow the vintage guys to come out and show off their cool toys. As such, flexibility needs to be the overriding theme. Finally, if you are building a new car to run vintage, you'd be out of your mind to skimp on safety stuff in the name of "correctness". As far as the safety stuff goes, it seems like a quality seat and cage will easily pass the "50-50" rule so that you'll look vintage on the track, but still be able to potentially save your bacon if you stuff the car. Can't wait to see the real "American Iron" on the track, Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted December 1, 2004 Members Share Posted December 1, 2004 That is a sweet car Jim.. Thanks John, that is the 'goal' of my car - it is a Dallas Mustang DM-450. Only mine will be a '68 (that one is a 65-66). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAI Racing Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 You guys familiar with this web site? http://www.historictransam.com I have found it to be an invaluable deterrent to workday productivity... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDR_John Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 You guys familiar with this web site? http://www.historictransam.com I have found it to be an invaluable deterrent to workday productivity... Come on Sean, I know that is about 1/100th of your "work deterent" websites. If you are going to ruin our productivity the least you could do is share the rest of your links But seriously... I am the posible 2nd West Coast AIV car. Now don't jump to conclusions just yet. I am at a crossroads with the car and have not come close to a decision yet. But here is the car as ran this year: its the blue one! http://homepage.mac.com/jpaikos/PhotoAlbum10.html John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted December 1, 2004 Members Share Posted December 1, 2004 Nice car! Those are the 'maro years I like the most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racercosmo Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Sean, As I said, I'm not well aquainted with the other groups. As I understand it, this is really meant to be for fun and to allow the vintage guys to come out and show off their cool toys. As such, flexibility needs to be the overriding theme. No it doesn't. Even if they are out here for "fun", they'll still be on the track with "real" race cars. About the Camaro, I will measure again, but I swear it was .049" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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