I don't get it...

[sperkins]

I've read many posts over the last several weeks about heel/toe shifting and how some pretty experienced drivers are still trying to learn it. I just don't get it. I don't ever remember even practicing it on the track; it was just natural. I guess I can see how it could be difficult and maybe intimidating to do on the street due to the amount of brake pedal travel needed, but it just seems so simple. Are some cars just designed where it is inherently difficult to do this and did any of you have to really work at it to get it down? Not trying to be an azzhat here - I'm just really curious to hear your input.

[Rob O]

Personally, I can't heel/toe in my street car because I don't threashold brake and I'm at a much lower RPM. Street: Once on the brake to slow down, as I move my foot to blip the throttle I press harder on the brake, not smooth. Track: I'm on the brake hard enough that the extra movement of my foot to blip the throttle doen't effect my brake pressure, smoother. I feel about 80% effective on the track at this point, need more practice.

[mcmmotorsports]

I have yet to try it, street or track. Not sure if it will make me any faster....then again, not sure if there is ANYTHING that will make me any faster.

[sperkins]

Personally, I can't heel/toe in my street car because I don't threashold brake and I'm at a much lower RPM.

 

I can definately understand that and have experienced it myself. Plus, there's never a reason to hell/toe on the street anyway.

[Trevor57]

I learned on the street. I just moved my pedals so I could do it while braking at 20% or whatever. You need to be way smoother going slow, so I felt it was good practice. I still do it in any street car with a manual trans. I have yet to drive a car that was impossible to HT in, although some are uncomfortable. At the end of the day, the reason some people can't do it is the same reason why some people suck at driving.

[drivinhardz06]

some cars are much harder than others (pedal placement/height, dashpot decay rate in the PCM). I've had a few cars that were really hard to get smooth.

 

The C5 has the best pedal placement (for my size feet) of any car I've ever driven. and I run a wider go-pedal also

 

I do it on every manual car I drive on the street, it's a habit now

 

at the track, its really hard on the pressure plate straps if you don't

[jason]

This is another reason that autox is such good driver training. If/when you can heal toe a smooth shift from 2-1, going from 4-3 or 3-2 is a breeze. Practice, practice, practice. Every shift, every car. It's a motherfker, you'll be frustrated as hell, you'll be less smooth braking and cornering, until the light comes on, and suddenly it works like magic, and you'll understand why everyone tells you to learn it.

[kbrew8991]

on the street - SMOOTHNESS happens with it

on the track - same thing

 

- KB, who is driven up the wall (almost literally) by either of his parents when they drive manual cars because of this

[drivinhardz06]

- KB, who is driven up the wall (almost literally) by either of his parents when they drive manual cars because of this

 

my favorite are the folks that push the clutch in coming to a stop, then row down through each gear with the clutch still released the whole time. then roll to a stop, put in neutral and let the clutch back out

[kbrew8991]

my "favorite" is how both of them will clutch-in just before turn in, select a gear at random it seems, and halfway through the turn clutch-out... half the time jerking the car around pretty good

[JDMxDB8]

I learned how to hee-and-toe on the street. It took me about a month to master it to the point where I would do it perfectly everytime I did it. It all starts out on the street. Then apply what you've learned on the track.

[obzezzed350]

Its one of the things they look for here in Florida region to get into HPDE3. Its not too hard in the Z.

[ddg]

Not only have I "heeled and toed" for the last 20 years on the street, but I also double clutch at the same time!

All this work (double clutching) reduces wear on the syncros and makes downshifting very smooth and cool sounding!

[TurboShortBus]

I started to heel-toe on the street as well, once I got my first 5-speed car 14 years ago. I would even do it with the 5-speed F-250 that I had a while back.

 

I made it easier to heel-toe in my Mustang on track by modifying the gas pedal so I can adjust its height relative to the brake pedal. The stock arrangement wasn't optimum, but it works very well now.

 

I have seen in-car videos of the heel-toe dance where the driver has his toes or the ball of his foot on the brake pedal, while he kicks the gas pedal with his foot. However, my right leg is apparently a bit retarded (although it's not limited to my right leg), and I have a bit too much "toe out" with my right foot alignment, so this arrangement isn't possible or comfortable for me. I keep the ball of my foot mostly on the brake pedal, while I can roll it off a bit to the side to hit the modified gas pedal. This also helps with my trail braking, as I can roll off of the brake while rolling onto the gas at the same time, for a smoother transition. Keep in mind that it's smoother, but not perfectly smooth; I still suck.

 

My brother, a 2008 NASA Championships winner, does not heel-toe, claiming that the footbox in his Factory Five Roadster isn't big enough. While this might not be a problem with his car, as there is actually more weight on the rear axle than the front, when he drove my nose-heavy Mustang with me riding shotgun, his downshifts into low-speed corners resulted in enough axle hop and borderline mechanical overrev that I thought the rear end was going to come out of the car if the engine bearings didn't go first.

 

I think there is definitely something to be said for heel-toe driving, if only to help save drivetrain parts. You also don't have to force the transmission into gear if the revs are where they should be, which will save the synchros/blocking rings.

 

And, as Joseph posted above, heel-toe driving is one of the things that the NASA-Florida instructors look for when you are getting your check ride into higher HPDE levels.

 

Mark

[Trevor57]

If you drive an auto are you stuck in 3 forever?

[obzezzed350]

Actually stuck in 2

[Meat]

My method:

 

The only car I've ever driven on track with a manual transmission was this:

 

It had a non-synchronize gearbox that required double clutching...boy was that a trial by fire learning experience. I had to go from driving a flappy-paddle car to learning how to move my feet in ways I never have while driving a car that was completely foreign to me. After a few sessions I started to get the hang of it, at least to the point where I didn't feel like I owed the gearbox an apology. It was awesome to complete a few of the downshifts sans clutch, but when it was all said and done I still <3 my paddles.

[trhoads]

The RX-8 is well set up for heel and toe, and I wear a size 13 shoe. My problem was more that I have a really bad knee, and a bad ankle, both on the right leg, so it ook a good bit pf practice to get any good at it. Now, I do it on the street all the time. My wife does not get it, she just thinks I like to hear the motor rev...and I do.

[Renesisfury]

Yeah, with the setup that RX-8's come with I found it really easy once I tried it. Plus its not like we have to worry about bending a rod!

[trhoads]

see, there are benefits to being a torqueless rotard after all.

[kbrew8991]

I would rock a Rensis powered Lotus7 replica... jus sayin

[Cheap_Thrills]

I'm starting to think heel toe and double clutching is a leftover practice from the good ol' days of non-synchronized transmissions and really isn't nesessary today.

I have trouble heel-toe shifting in my 944 because my long legs, my knee hits the steering column when doing the twist action. It's fun to do, but I really don't see a difference in shifting feel anyway, in fact it slows my lap times down. I only do it when I downshift but dont want to come all the way off the throttle before accelerating again, I just roll my toe off the brake and keep my heel on the gas to maintain smooth rpms. Other than that I've never had much resistance when downshifting to even need to bother, maybe it's the Porsche's fine german engineered synchros. I know it's easier on the internals, but with my teenagers always slamming it through the gears it won't make much difference.

I found it intresting watching the foot-cams of the NASCAR race at Infineon, only a few road racing background drivers still did it. The rest left foot brake, bypass the clutch and rev match to shift, like I did when driving big rigs with no synchros.

[sperkins]

I found it intresting watching the foot-cams of the NASCAR race at Infineon, only a few road racing background drivers still did it. The rest left foot brake, bypass the clutch and rev match to shift, like I did when driving big rigs with no synchros.

 

I think the straight cut gears in cup cars is the main reason it's so easy for them to do that.

[kbrew8991]

I have to do it on my car to prevent rear wheel lockup/flatspotting - the revs *have* to be close or it'll try to lock up one side or the other

[TurboShortBus]

I think the straight cut gears in cup cars is the main reason it's so easy for them to do that.

How would they? The gears and gear teeth don't actually do any moving or sliding (other than the usual rotating); the sliders and synchros/blocking rings/etc. handle gear selection, no matter if the gears are straight-cut or helical-cut. Racing transmissions typically use dog rings or face-tooth engagement, which reduce the need for a clutch in order to shift gears. But, of course, I could be missing something...

 

Mark