"Test and Tune" or PAID Practice?

[jmeris]

For the past 3years Practice at nationals (granted it was at Mid-Ohio), was included in the total price of the

registration fees.

 

Schedule for nationals: http://nasachampionships.com/news/070309/Sched_Nationals_2009Ver1.pdf

Link to Pratice options: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=28189

Registration for Practice/"Test and Tune": https://www.nasaproracing.com/event/952

 

Even though it's labeled as "Test and Tune", it's essentially Practice time competitors have to pay for. So even if competitors registered early for nationals at $499 they must add $199 for practice (or in this case, "Test and Tune"). Otherwise, competitors (some with no prior track experience to MMP) warm-up and begin qualifying Friday...

 

Am I missing something or is this correct?

 

jmeris

[kbrew8991]

uhh, no - the Tues & Wed stuff at Mid-Ohio was not included in the entry fee. Thursday was the first day covered by the standard entry fee.

[vpnwiz]

uhh, no - the Tues & Wed stuff at Mid-Ohio was not included in the entry fee. Thursday was the first day covered by the standard entry fee.

Ken, if you take a look at the schedule for this year's championships they moved things around. Yes, Tue at MidO was around $800 w/instructor and Wed was $500 for all-day open track last year. But Thursday (first day of "Nationals") was a practice day for all race groups. Friday was qual/qual race 1, Saturday was qual/qual race 2, and Sunday was the race. Check out mylaps if you need proof, they are all labeled as Practice on Thursday.

 

This year all groups qual races are on Thursday and Friday. 1/2 the race groups have their champ race on Saturday (while the ones that are not racing Saturday get only 20 minutes of track time shared with another race group ) and the leftover groups race on Sunday.

 

So it appears that jmeris is right. Practice has been removed from the entry fee.

[nape]

Thursday was the first day covered by the standard entry fee.

 

Correct, and Thursday was a practice day. Since the schedule has been expanded into 4 days of racing, Wednesday is the new Thursday and it costs an extra $199.

 

[edit] Beaten.

[kbrew8991]

thats what I get for only looking at the Sunday part to see when I'd be out of there to drive for 26hrs to get back to Houston

 

that setup sure doesn't favor out-of-towners without deep pockets, between that and TT and PT being right on top of each other on Sunday I can't say I like this schedule alot. Wonder why we're messing with the nice proven successful formula that's been going for 3 years at Mid-O? Did it not work well in 2008? (I had to miss that one, unemployed ) it seemed like you got ALOT of real spectators when the races were all on one day the years I got to go

 

(ps Pat - I was doing these before you, so )

 

oh and while I'm whining, why isn't MY race over on Saturday?

[SimonH]

I'm not happy about this, now that the schedule has changed and the event is basically a day longer we now have to pay for practice. So if your championship is on a Sunday you have to burn another day of vacation and another $200. Am I missing something here?

[bpanther]

I'm not happy about this, now that the schedule has changed and the event is basically a day longer we now have to pay for practice. So if your championship is on a Sunday you have to burn another day of vacation and another $200. Am I missing something here?

 

 

For E30 (assuming it stays in with group H), the event is not a day longer. It's still 4 days as it has always been. Championship races has always been on Sunday, so that's not different for you.

 

 

We have just converted some of the practice time into more qualifying and race length based on feedback that qualifying sessions were too short. You are getting 200 minutes of track time vs 205 minutes in the past years for the same amount of $$. Less practice more racing. (editorial: I personally like racing, not doing open laps)

 

I look at it this way. The format for Thursday and Friday really isn't different than a normal NASA weekend.... Practice/qual/race. If you show up at a track on a Friday on a normal NASA weekend, do you really expect the test and tune fees to be thrown in as part of your entry?

[SimonH]

For E30 (assuming it stays in with group H), the event is not a day longer. It's still 4 days as it has always been. Championship races has always been on Sunday, so that's not different for you.

 

True I got lucky, I was mainly pointing out for those that have a championship on Sunday, so they have to take an extra vacation day.

 

We have just converted some of the practice time into more qualifying and race length based on feedback that qualifying sessions were too short. You are getting 200 minutes of track time vs 205 minutes in the past years for the same amount of $$. Less practice more racing. (editorial: I personally like racing, not doing open laps)

 

Thats great and I wouldn't mind if it was Mid Ohio because I would skip practice, but I'm going to be towing 24 hours to a track I've never seen so I can't really skip the practice (test/tune) day.

 

I look at it this way. The format for Thursday and Friday really isn't different than a normal NASA weekend.... Practice/qual/race. If you show up at a track on a Friday on a normal NASA weekend, do you really expect the test and tune fees to be thrown in as part of your entry?

 

No but I do when thats what we got in the past. I also don't expect the normal NASA weekend to cost between $499 and $999. I expect to pay more for a Nationals event. I also don't think the $200 is unreasonable its just that we now have to pay for something we didn't before. The price has gone up $200 for out of towners plain and simple because of the schedule change. I don't think its an unreasonable cost but I think you do have to recognize that we got thursday practice for free last year. For an event that was already bordering on excessive spending for myself this might be just too much. I understand it but its just a cost I wasn't expecting and it will be frustrating to have to cancel if thats what I decide.

[bpanther]

that setup sure doesn't favor out-of-towners without deep pockets, between that and TT and PT being right on top of each other on Sunday I can't say I like this schedule alot. Wonder why we're messing with the nice proven successful formula that's been going for 3 years at Mid-O? Did it not work well in 2008? (I had to miss that one, unemployed ) it seemed like you got ALOT of real spectators when the races were all on one day the years I got to go

 

(ps Pat - I was doing these before you, so )

 

oh and while I'm whining, why isn't MY race over on Saturday?

 

Ken..... never ever wish that your weekend is over the day before it is supposed to end - that's just bad karma . And besides with TT, you know you're going to set your fast lap on Saturday AM and you can then just hang back and let everyone try to catch you....

 

 

One nice thing about Miller is that there aren't very many locals as we don't host regular NASA events there. Even though it's in "my region" most of my drivers have only seen it once. Even at Mid-O those with deep pockets went starting on Monday and got 3 days of practice/test/tune in before anyone else got started w/the NASA practice on our first day.

 

 

Key points....

 

The format has been working but is not adaptable for the future. With the addition of more TV stuff, the 2 day schedule makes it easier to do the production (esp since we are broadcasting live on the internet). Makes it easier to put in car cameras in more cars.

 

We dodged a huge bullet last year with hurricane Ike. If it had hit just 4 hours earlier, we would have been out of options other than tell 5 of the 8 race groups - "so sorry, we can't do the race. come back next year." For those that weren't there or left earlier in the day the power went out on the very last lap of the GTS race. Then the trees started falling, tents and porta-potties destroyed. Track was unusable. We were fortunate in that the storm was not expected to hit until late in the afternoon and we hedged our bets we would be OK as there was no time to play. With the new schedule, we have more flexibility and time to scramble and get all the races in if something like that happens again.

 

Tech. Comments from competitors asked for better more invasive tear-down of the class winners. The only way we could fit this in was to put some of the race classes on Saturday.

 

TT competitors felt that they were shorted by not being able to drive on Sunday as well.....

[slammed_93_hatch]

Then the trees started falling, tents and porta-potties destroyed. Track was unusable. We were fortunate in that the storm was not expected to hit until late in the afternoon and we hedged our bets we would be OK as there was no time to play.

 

 

ahahahaha in my experience that is very typical of Mid-Ohio.

[Sterling Doc]

I've got no dog in this, since my Nationals budget was blown when I wrecked my car, but one other thing to consider is that the short 15" sessions we had (to get everyone out on the track on the same day) won't work well at a larger track like Miller. So, less, but longer sessions were needed to make this work...

[kbrew8991]

I never once felt shorted on track time as a TTer in '06 and '07 and in fact we have 9 sessions this year, the exact same as we got in 3 days before but now we have to take one more vacation day to get it. Add in the fact that historically the morning sessions were considered warmups and not counted towards your best time and this schedule option doesn't really seem like much help - it would mean only 4 competition sessions. I guess Greg can chime in here as to how those morning sessions might change - if they are scored towards your best lap then at least we're getting a bit more competition time (8 scored sessions currently vs 6 previously) but its still the same track time spread out over more days which may not be as appetizing.

 

I personally am strongly considering dropping my supersize-into-TT option because I won't be able to put in a good effort across both classes under this current schedule and do not have any other reasonable class availible to me in which I could attempt to supersize into (in other words I won't run ST2 in a PTF car - that isn't safe). There at least needs to be an adjustment of not having a much bigger break between what will likely amount to a race championship session and the time trial championship session for SU/ST/PT and their equivalent TT classes. Throwing out the freak weather of '08 historically the last TT session was the session in which a vast majority of competitors set their fastest time. Right now groups G & J (equivalent TT and PT classes) and D & I (equivalent SU/ST/PT and TT classes) are back to back or effectively back to back all day on Sunday. Which might work great if you're a local and can lay down a good time on Thurs, Fri, or Sat - but someone who might take those days to be safer, learn the track, and creep up on that perfect lap like the previous years schedules wisely encouraged would be at a serious disadvantage.

 

How often do hurricanes hit Utah (or Ohio) again? Some of the TV stuff does make sense but I don't understand why they can't bring out a couple more cameras and a couple more people. I know our name says "Pro" racing, but we're largely amateurs. The "pro" camera people outta be able to handle that I would think. Also spreading out the action might not draw as much spectator crowd. Us amateurs need all of those we can get We're not a big ALMS/Indy/NASCAR/whatever weekend... yet

 

The tech angle completely makes sense, but staggering some of the classes that aren't as invasive (hp:weight is easier to check, right?) in between the classes that might be (cough*SM*cough) might not be a bad alternative??

 

The more racing format for a normal club weekend is great - especially 2 races a day like I have now with NASA-TX, but this one is for ALL the marbles and not a normal weekend. I think most would rather see it be about who has the best car/driver combo instead of who lives closer to Miller and can make it out for more test/race/etc days. Having a bit more practice during the normal event pushes the balance back closer towards level between out-of-towners and locals, about as far as you can be really asked to imo.

 

One of the greatest things I like about NASA is how they listen to their customers. Lets not set that schedule in stone quite yet. And lets definitely not copy it for '10 until after '09 is over and people can give their thoughts on the experience they just had

[Greg G.]

Ken, actually there are 10 sessions listed currently this year, not 9. The first one is warm-up/practice, and the other nine are competition sessions. As I posted in the other thread that you commented in, all of the TT sessions counted last year except for the first of the event. That worked out fine, and we plan on continuing to allow competition in the morning sessions on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. So, compared to '07, there are nine competition sessions vs six. I'm not really sure how this is the same amount of track time as last year. It looks to me like it is an extra 10 minutes for TT. But, more importantly, there is an extra session of morning competition, and an extra day that can help negate weather as a major factor. You weren't there last year, but the combination of rain and wind really took a toll on the number of TT sessions that were actually for competition.

 

I don't understand why you don't think you would be able to put a good effort into both classes. I have looked at the schedule and didn't find that I will have a problem, and I will have significantly less time than you with my duties also as an Official. When I saw the schedule, I did notice the issue you mention regarding the Group I and J scheduling in relation to the PT and ST Races on Sunday. I do agree that a change would probably be best for a few reasons, and I will discuss this with Dave. Remember folks, this is a tentative schedule.

 

Tech inspection, filming, and weather issues are all significant, and as Dave has stated, should all be easier to deal with under this format. Also, as Dave stated, there are really only a few locals to Miller, unlike Mid-Ohio. Also, with running the outer loop track instead of the full track, it will be much easier for everyone to quickly get up to competition speed.

 

As was stated earlier, the schedule is tentative, but there is no indication that the two-day race format will be changing. I personally hope to see a lot more drivers decide to Supersize to PT, ST, SU and GTS on Sunday if their primary race is on Saturday.

[kbrew8991]

I understand tentative as well, tis why I'm providing my $0.02 (and may be others $0.02 as well...) now while there is a chance for change. The biggest thing for me really would be the back-to-back stuff on Sunday. I really do not want to miss what historically has been the fastest session for most TT folks barring odd weather situations is all.

 

If there are alot of TT only folks they still may prefer the "old" compact schedule... but I would need to look at the entry lists closer to tell ya for sure.

 

And yes, there may be less locals than Mid-O, but its still the same advantage

 

Glad to hear people are listening and we're having some constructive feedback going both ways

[Greg G.]

Assuming that the run groups stay the same (a big assumption unless registration picks up in some of the lower subscribed classes this year), we will switch the Sunday TT schedule so the corresponding TT and PT/ST run sessions are not back-to-back. I would expect that the "money" TT session of the event will be Sunday morning anyway.

[Karl]

as someone who was on the fence about the haul to nationals for the fourth year in a row I think the schedule change and loss of free practice day put me out for sure

[Jeremy C.]

as someone who was on the fence about the haul to nationals for the fourth year in a row I think the schedule change and loss of free practice day put me out for sure

 

 

 

I really don't understand this type of thinking Karl.

 

How many HC racers do you think run at MMP?

Currently on the entry list, I don't believe a single one has track time there.

So, you'll have the same amount of time they will unless they opt for the test&tune which is also open to you (which I must say is an exceptionally good value).

 

I for one am happy about the new schedule as I'll actually get to watch a couple races this year and not feel so rushed...

[ST#97]

as someone who was on the fence about the haul to nationals for the fourth year in a row I think the schedule change and loss of free practice day put me out for sure

 

 

 

I really don't understand this type of thinking Karl.

...

 

 

I think it's pretty simple to understand...

[Bart Carter]

I am running SU and TT. Personally, I don't see how I could use more track time than that. I am not coming early to practice or test and tune. I'm just worrying that I'll have enough stamina to do the track time allotted. I am working out now!

[Greg G.]

as someone who was on the fence about the haul to nationals for the fourth year in a row I think the schedule change and loss of free practice day put me out for sure

 

 

 

I really don't understand this type of thinking Karl.

...

 

 

I think it's pretty simple to understand...

 

I agree with Jeremy. I guess that some of us are just more used to visiting a new track, looking at some in-car video the night before, running a few sessions, and then being ready to race? The Thursday race is just a qualifying race anyway--only value is one half of a starting position. I could see this being a problem if we were using the full course at Miller, that took me three full sessions to learn all of the turns the one time I visited there three years ago, or even at Mid-Ohio if it were a new track for me with its nuances, but not really for the outer loop of Miller. For Karl, a Honda Challenge racer, he gets the same amount of track time as in the past, yet is finished by Saturday night. So, if the issue of the schedule is time, no racer needs to spend more time off than in the past (the TT guys do if they want to run every session--one extra day). If the issue is money, I just can't see the problem with spending another $199 for an extra 100 minutes of track time on Wednesday if really needed. This is one new tire, and really a small percentage of the overall budget for anyone traveling to an event like this! What I would really do if I was a Honda Challenge driver, is spend the $299 and Supersize to PT, doubling my track time, and decide after my Saturday Honda Challenge race if I wanted to run in the PT National Championship race on Sunday. I also would (and did) register when the entry fee was $499, and not wait until it was $599 or $699 as some people choose to do.

 

But, either way, I think that Jeremy is right that there really shouldn't be a big "home track" advantage like there is at Mid-Ohio.

[Andrie]

The schedule really hurt the low budget people IMHO. While there might be more track time but cost is also increased tremendously. 1 day of wage for the driver and crew easily cost over $1k. Additionally the cost for hotel and food and the test day itself. In total I estimate of over $1.5k cost for the extra day needed. Some can recoupe the day if they have Saturday race. But most will not.

 

True you can opt not to run the test day and save some money. But by doing this, defintely shifting the advantage to the wealthy or who can afford it group.

 

Those who think they can learn Miller in a few session is delusional. I've been there and I'm one of the few who can learn the track pretty quick. This was proven that I topped the time sheet in third session of my first time at Mid Ohio.

 

I'm registered, but seriously thinking of withdrawing. In this economy climate, forcing people to spend more money is really not wise.

[Bart Carter]

How is this different from any other racing venue? It is what it is and everyone has the same opportunity. Racing does cost money. NASA is probably one of the least expensive ways to really race.

 

Am I seeing the forest or the trees?

[Andrie]

Excuse me for thinking NASA is different and better than others. If it is the same what's the attraction?

[jmeris]

But by doing this, defintely shifting the advantage to the wealthy or who can afford it group.

 

I think, that's racing in GENERAL...of course there are EXCEPTIONS.

 

 

I'm registered, but seriously thinking of withdrawing. In this economy climate, forcing people to spend more money is really not wise.

 

I'm registered too, but I'm thinking of sitting this one out too. When is the deadline to withdraw to get a full refund?

 

jmeris

[944-Spec#94]

We have just converted some of the practice time into more qualifying and race length based on feedback that qualifying sessions were too short.

 

In the end this deal.

 

in 2008 and prior years and number 15 min sessions were used to get cars on track. This combined with 40 min races and a short clean up in between allow all races groups to run on the same day. It was tight, but managable.

 

At Miller there is on relaity that cannot be escaped. Lap length

 

944 spec tiimes at Mid-Ohio were 1:44 or so. At Miller even on the 3.0 mile track that same car is to 2:20-2:25. That means 30 seconds more per lap. What does that mean? In 15 minutes allowing for 1 warm-up and 2 cool down lap (est 2:35 seconds each for "fast cooldown") you only have 10 mintues for actual track time. That comes to about 4-5 laps maybe. That is just not that many laps. So you really need 20 min sessions to claw back 2 more laps.

 

Plus during a race one double yellow takes longer gather the field so you need that extra 5 mintues per race. Then if you consider a clean-up between races. 5 mintes is barely enough time to get a safety truck around the track and be able to rope tow in wounded car. If that car can't roll it will take much longer than 5 mintues to clean up.

 

 

So that is why things had to be moved around. I don't like the fact that the "practice day" is gone, but once I looked at the session times it became clear to me there was just not the hours in the day to do it anyway differently and still provide some usable track time for each racer.