"Test and Tune" or PAID Practice?

[King Matt]

The reasons for most of the schedule changes make sense, but I think it also has to be acknowledged that in this current economy, it might also be a tipping point for some people who will choose not to attend, especially those who have long travel distances and may have been on the fence to begin with. That's just the way it is.

[EJO]

These are very similar times to those run on VIR Full Course. Granted, Mid_A does not have seperate races for each class but they are able to keep things going very smoothly. Maybe Chris and J.J. can interject some wisdom to help make it work at Nationals.

 

At Miller there is on relaity that cannot be escaped. Lap length

 

944 spec tiimes at Mid-Ohio were 1:44 or so. At Miller even on the 3.0 mile track that same car is to 2:20-2:25. That means 30 seconds more per lap. What does that mean? In 15 minutes allowing for 1 warm-up and 2 cool down lap (est 2:35 seconds each for "fast cooldown") you only have 10 mintues for actual track time. That comes to about 4-5 laps maybe. That is just not that many laps. So you really need 20 min sessions to claw back 2 more laps.

[Jeremy C.]

Again, I think the people that are looking at this as a huge cost increase are doing so because "they" feel they "must" do the test day.

 

That's just not the case! You can certainly "choose" to do the test day, but it's certainly not required.

 

Andrie, because you responded, I'll use you as an example.

I think you'd do just fine coming to the event and starting Thurs like so many others will.

 

To many people are forgetting that the big race is on Sat or Sun, not Thurs!

 

If you finish "toward" the front Thurs and Fri, you'd have a great starting spot come Championship day!

The fast guys will be there no matter what.

 

 

This attitude that you "must" do a full day of testing just isn't so! As Greg said, pick up the supersize option for another class, get double the track time, and utilize your "paid" crew on the days they'll be there!

 

Just my 2 cents...

[jfo]

For me personally I registered early and counted on there being the regular Thursday practice day (my fault for assuming) plus knowing I would register for a Wed practice day to get a "leg up" on the competition. I'm sure others thought the same. Now instead of thinking the extra day would give me an advantage I (and I think others) are pressured into paying for Wed and now have to consider backing up to Tuesday to get an advantage. Yes, I agree that nobody is forcing me or anyone else to register for extra days but this is how I think..........I'm paying to travel across country and spending big money, I'm not going to try and save $1,000 and get beat because I don't know the track. If I'm going, I'm not going to watch the back of a competitor's car.

 

Yes I and others could pay to supersize and use those track times as extra practice and think of that class as a "throw away". I don't think the competitors in that class would appreciate knowing that if that was their primary/only class. Plus I think someone learning the line or trying something different would adversely affect a TT's hot lap and as has been pointed out there won't be that many laps.

 

I don't like to admit that the sched could be looking a bit like s{{a where most of the people will be gone before the last events. TV/pics/internet would look better with fellow racers family and friends in the background. There is also the stigma of racing Sat instead of Sunday. When does college football play and when do the pros take the field? Same with Nascar up to F1.

 

The 944 cup guy is right. While the qual sessions have been lengthened from 15 at MO to 20 at MMP there will actually be less green time because of the long warm up lap and the last hot lap +cool down lap. This will be repeated on all practices and races. The track time might be the same or longer but the green time will be substantially less.

 

Jeremy and others if you are listening I have a few suggestions:

 

1) As I saw last weekend at Watkins Glen with the Indycars the timing and scoring line was backed up to the turn before pit in so racers didn't have to do an entire lap after a hot lap just to come in the pits. Races would still start and end at start/finish.

 

2) NASA MidA's procedure for VIR full (3.27miles) is to throw checker 1/2 way around the course so cars do not have to pass start/finish and do another cool down lap therefore shaving yellow time out of the session and getting more green time. They also let next sessions cars out on warm up lap while the last 1/2 of the course is on cool down.

 

3) As Andrie suggested warm up and cool down laps could be shortened through use of a crossover so green flag time is maximized.

 

 

I personally would like to see suggestion #1 used with #2. A racer would see the checker 4 turns from the pits finish the fast lap they are on and duck into the pits. The track would be clear for the next group in about 3 minutes.

[944-Spec#94]

Look I am a 944 spec racer and my feature race is Saturday. I have no issues at all with racing on Saturday vs Sunday. The day of week is less important than the racing itself. Actually for all of us Saturday guys it will make the racing more of spectaor sport since we have all the sunday guys with nothing to do other than watch the racing. Sunday for me will probably be a pack up and leave day. Unless I supersize. I have not decided if Wedensday test day is more valueable to me vs a supersize. My focus is on the 944 spec championship race not on any supersize class.

 

Now having run at Miller one before last June I don't know there is a timing stripe that allows for timed laps before pit in. Even then I am not sure if the track flow even allows for that. I will say that on the 4.5 mile track espcially I needed to run my "cool down" lap flat out for 3/4 of the lap. Else my 3:30 lap times would turn in 5 min laps. This not as important on 3.0 mile track, but if you back off right as you see the flag... well it is going to be long cool down. Best adivice to run hot until the Attitudes then back off for these and cool down the remaining mile or so in to the pits. This goes for the 3.0 mile or 4.5 mile.

 

The real problem at race time is a double yellow. I had one racing on the 3.0 mile track and it took 5 mintues to catch up to the pace car. It was a mixed group and we had one guy going slow during the double yellow. We needed him to run 90% (vs 100%) and he was going only 70%. This mean it took a long time to get to the pace car. The shorter the race more chance that a double yellow will have a large impact on race.

 

Now one other thing I though about when loolking at this schedule. Normally on a long track you can compensate for need for longer sessions by reducing the groups. What may have been 2 30 car race groups can be combined into one 60 car group. 3.0 miles of track is alot of track and handling 60-70 cars is breeze. However when looking at the National groupings it rather hard to cut down the 8 groups to something less. TT needs 2 groups (faster and slower). Then some groups do best with stand alone groups like SM. Others you want seperated for supersize and others for standing starts or general speed differences. So when you talk all that into account combining groups is not very easy. So in the end it comes out a half dozen of one or 6 of another.

 

I don't envy the NASA guys trying to coordinate all this. Once you start looking at all the realities in this it becomes more clear why the changes were made. Now sure that does not do much for the drivers who had planned based on rough schedules from prior years. I for one planned based on that general format and will have to make some changes. However I won't let that block running Nationals for me. This event will be the largest gathering of 944 race cars anywhere and will be the moment in the sun for 944 spec. Just being a part of that is huge despite where I may finnish.

[kbrew8991]

Actually for all of us Saturday guys it will make the racing more of spectaor sport since we have all the sunday guys with nothing to do other than watch the racing.

 

thats phunneeee. We won't be having our own qualifying races, or in some cases TT sessions or anything

[944-Spec#94]

Actually for all of us Saturday guys it will make the racing more of spectaor sport since we have all the sunday guys with nothing to do other than watch the racing.

 

thats phunneeee. We won't be having our own qualifying races, or in some cases TT sessions or anything

Not on Saturday. The schedule I saw gave you guys a practice session and TT session in the afternoon. Thursday and Friday have a similar 20 min practice. 20 min qual, and 20 min race for all groups. Saturday and sunday are 20 min warm up and then 45 min race on both days. The difference in Saturday has 1 practice session for the sunday race groups.

 

So grab a cold one and watch some real racing.

[ST#97]

 

1) As I saw last weekend at Watkins Glen with the Indycars the timing and scoring line was backed up to the turn before pit in so racers didn't have to do an entire lap after a hot lap just to come in the pits. Races would still start and end at start/finish.

 

 

 

I would love for the start line to be where it's at....and the finish line to be at track out coming on to the front straight!

[bpanther]

Jeremy and others if you are listening I have a few suggestions:

 

1) As I saw last weekend at Watkins Glen with the Indycars the timing and scoring line was backed up to the turn before pit in so racers didn't have to do an entire lap after a hot lap just to come in the pits. Races would still start and end at start/finish.

 

2) NASA MidA's procedure for VIR full (3.27miles) is to throw checker 1/2 way around the course so cars do not have to pass start/finish and do another cool down lap therefore shaving yellow time out of the session and getting more green time. They also let next sessions cars out on warm up lap while the last 1/2 of the course is on cool down.

 

3) As Andrie suggested warm up and cool down laps could be shortened through use of a crossover so green flag time is maximized.

 

#1 is a good idea, but if we had the $$$ that Indy car does, we would just give you the free practice on Wednesday!!! To relocate a T&S loop at Miller would probably be in the > $10,000 range. I just don't see that happening

 

#2 Another good one and already done at Miller.

 

#3 There are no shortened crossovers when you are using the outer course. If we were on the full course, then we could use the outer loop. But then again, if we were using the full 4.5 miles... we would be having even more interesting conversations right now.

 

Really folks..... we thought about this 6 ways to Sunday (pun intended). This is really one of the best ways to insure everybody gets a decent amount of track time and opportunities for green flag racing.

 

Or, if you want your practice time back in 2010 we can split the event in 2. Half of you would race on the 2.2 mile east course and the other 1/2 on the 2.2 mile west course. One big event, 2 races happening at the same time. Who wants left and who wants the right?

[jfo]

Dave,

 

Thanks for getting back to me.

 

Maybe Miller would do the conversion as I would think MotoGP, ALMS, or one of the larger race series would like to see the loop moved.

 

Two 2.2 mile courses is not a bad idea. That idea ran through my head but I was thinking all TT on one course and all race groups on the other.

[kbrew8991]

That idea ran through my head but I was thinking all TT on one course and all race groups on the other.

 

so long as TT gets the better half

[bpanther]

My inital idea was to have 1/2 the groups run race day one on the east course and the other on the west. Then flip flop for race day 2. The each group would race on the outer course on Sunday for the main race. What would the format of the practice day be?

 

I decided I would get tarred/feathered and hung for that one.

 

 

 

Now for TT'ers for next year. I thought it would be cool to required the TT'ers to do all three configs and then we would combine the 3 times for a master time. Lowest master time would be the class winner. Would you be down for that or do you really insist on having all 9 sessions on the same config?

[kbrew8991]

I can hear people gathering tar & feathers for that one now

 

I dunno if it would bother me personally. On the one hand I'd be pissed if I had bad traffic one session and a spin/off in the other and thus got stuck with a crappy time for one config, but on the other hand thats part of the skill/strategy of the game and its the same risk of that for everyone else. I think the thing to look at is how big a departure from that is from "normal" and if that is a risk of possibly turning people off from the only national Time Trials championship series. Would it be seen as mikey-mouse, or seen more as "oh, that raises the level of diffuiculty"??

[944-Spec#94]

Dave interesting Idea.

 

Seems actually interest for TT since all you need in TT is one good lap. Plus since there are no TT championships you TT guys can sort of make up the format. It does seem strange that a guy can in theory set 1 good lap first timed session on the first day and never need to drive again and win. With a 3 course plan an element of consistancy is required to be fast not just once, but over the course of days and with different challenges. Then again I am not TT guy so what do I know.

 

For racing the only issue with swtiching tracks is that the entry to turn 1 will be much faster (ok maybe not for a 944) going into turn 1 when using the full straight. Also the witchcraft transition makes the entry to attitudes different. Other than that those areas the rest of the course is the same. These updates would be best served with some time to allow drivers to find their braking point for 1 especially since trying to learn braking point at the drop of the green is asking for trouble.

 

The other is however that the main race on the 3.0 mile still creates the same issues with session length and clean up. Seems like you got the other days squeezed in, but the main event days were just too much.

 

Now last year in June when we ran the 3.0 on two days then swapped the 4.5 for the last day it was tough getting to grips with the extra 1.5 miles. I was one of the lucky ones and picked up faster than most, but it was clear that for many others they were still learning the 3.0 mile so to add in 1.5 more was hard. I was also helped by two things. 1) running the 2 hour enduro on the 3.0 mile gave me time to learn it well so I could focus on the extra 1.5 miles. 2) was some good advice I got on near the bathrooms/showers on saturday night. Strange, but I went to take a shower came back with 2 seconds.

[bpanther]

Strange, but I went to take a shower came back with 2 seconds.

 

As mentioned in the other thread - They are nice showers!!!

[kbrew8991]

because its only one lap you have to be that much closer to perfect to win - nail your driving, but also have the perfect temp in the tires, perfect temp in the brakes, perfect track conditions for your car, etc, etc all at once. As close as some classes have been (like TTE), nailing it when its perfect does matter.

 

One little slide when things are perfect and you aren't looking so hot with that tenth or two slower laptime.. whereas in a race you might drop a tenth to your nearest competition with a little slide and at the worst lose a spot with a chance to repass them and fully erase the consequences of the mistake.

 

Another plus for the "3 days on one course angle" is that encourages people to take a bit more time to learn the track, take a bit more care when passing traffic all lowering the chances of getting in over their heads. With no mandated equipment any chance the event can be made safer via format should be strongly considered.

[944-Spec#94]

Well this not the place to debate this, but I consider TT just like race qualfying. Goal is one good lap. If you take 10 laps in session only one needs to be perfect and if really mess-up 5-6 laps and then get 3 decient and 1 perfect lap for are ok. In race you can't mess-up ANY laps more than a small ammount as every lap you run is cumulative. What is very hard challenge is the time attack format were you get 2-3 LAPS to produce a best. Anything can happen and you really can afford any mistakes.

 

Even so I could see that a multiple track format could make TT more interesting. Like I said though I don't TT. I race so I guess it is only natural to feel a standard TT format lacking abit. That is fine however as NASA is good enough to have different groups to cover different needs.

[kbrew8991]

the big difference is its not a big deal if you qualify a tenth behind someone because you can pass them in the race if you're good. No such thing in TT

 

you sound like a person that might say "oh drag racing is easy, you just launch the car and shift a few times".

[CMC#11]

 

you sound like a person that might say "oh drag racing is easy, you just launch the car and shift a few times".

That's correct, your point?

[kbrew8991]

ah hell, lets derail this thing a bit...

 

getting that last 0.05 out of a 60' time, or trimming another 0.01 off your shifts, etc, etc is just as challenging as getting through turn 1 at TWS 1mph faster.

 

the difference between good and great on track is measured in half seconds. the difference between good and great at the drags is measured in half tenths

[ST#97]

Drag Racing is like masterbating madly to the point of hurting something.

 

Using Nitrous is like doing a HOT chick with an STD...you want to hit it but are afraid of the consequences.

 

AutoX...just like jerking off but you are in a hurry....a quick fix.

 

Time Trials....I am going really fast but don't get close to me!

 

Road Racing....Funnest thing you can do with a fire suit on...unless you play dress up with Megan Fox!

 

 

 

or something along those lines......oh, drag racing requires you drive a camaro and have a mullett!

[smokinjoe]

I'm game for the multi-course option in TT Nationals. It has a nice 1Lap ring to it. A better driver in a slower car (ahem.. sentra ) will do far better than an average driver in a fast car.

 

9 sessions on one course, over three days.. isnt as exciting as 3 courses in 3 days..

[kbrew8991]

you say that not having done OneLap and seeing the guys with money that are average drivers that pre-drove the entire schedule

[JamesL]

you say that not having done OneLap and seeing the guys with money that are average drivers that pre-drove the entire schedule

 

[John A]

or something along those lines......oh, drag racing requires you drive a camaro and have a mullett!

 

o rly?