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bpanther

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30MPH average on a 3 mile configuration means a 6 minute out lap... Is it possible to have the pit out for the warm-up allow for using the east course by-pass (if this question makes any sense)? Not knowing the grid location or the facility, this is what I was referencing:

 

Ian, good question. At Miller last year, we used the West grid and track entrance. This allowed us to use the East pit lane as a hot pit lane during sessions and to get cars back into the paddock without congestion. While I don't know if that's been decided for Nationals, it would seem to make sense. If that's the case, you would have to go counter-race to get back to the by-passes to use them and that wouldn't be good. So, it's just as easy to go from the West track entrance around the track, but that' won't be the full three miles either.

 

Rick

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30MPH average on a 3 mile configuration means a 6 minute out lap... Is it possible to have the pit out for the warm-up allow for using the east course by-pass (if this question makes any sense)? Not knowing the grid location or the facility, this is what I was referencing:

 

Ian, good question. At Miller last year, we used the West grid and track entrance. This allowed us to use the East pit lane as a hot pit lane during sessions and to get cars back into the paddock without congestion. While I don't know if that's been decided for Nationals, it would seem to make sense. If that's the case, you would have to go counter-race to get back to the by-passes to use them and that wouldn't be good. So, it's just as easy to go from the West track entrance around the track, but that' won't be the full three miles either.

 

Rick

 

 

Ian.

 

No. There is no room to do this and the cars will be leaving grid at the very west end of the paddock.

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Joe, you are right about the out lap and the in lap. We need to get everyone to do them FAST, especially the back markers as they tend to go way too slow.

 

We also need a fast start to the pace lap of the race to get the tires warmed up prior to forming up and the back markers will really need to hustle to keep up and be in a position to form up. Talking about it in the meetings will help too.

 

Having meetings every day and having a handout for all of the 944 guys may help too.

 

It would be nice to have a green flag track, like we do for qualifying, for all sessions so we don't get trapped behind a guy going slow on the out lap. Can we do that for the practice sessions to?

 

Just talking about this is getting me excited!

 

Big Dog

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It's not necessarily the back markers that are the problem with getting the field set for the start. Last time at Miller, I was towards the back of the back and I was just entering the Attitudes when the pole sitter was entering Tooele turn. There was a huge gap in the middle of the field that was forcing the back markers to not be able to get lined up properly for the start. Any gaps mid pack just spread to the back of the field making it that much harder for the back markers to get set for the start.

 

With the large field we are going to have a Miller, it will be important for all drivers to not allow gaps to form on the out lap prior to forming up for the start. It will also be important for the pole sitter to set a pace that will allow for a nice tight formation at the start. I would think that we need to start getting into formation immediately after Tooele corner and have everyone be set before the Clubhouse turn.

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I have two words to solve the issue of bad bunching.

 

Standing Starts

 

 

Chuck will be working with JWL this week (and next) to get the format worked out.

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I have two words to solve the issue of bad bunching.

 

Standing Starts

 

 

Chuck will be working with JWL this week (and next) to get the format worked out.

 

 

I have two words for that. BROKEN PARTS.

 

Standing Starts are great way to bust CV joints (if you are lucky), Clutchs or ring and pinions in the gearbox. Look our cars are old and doing standing starts on cars with $100 CV joints, $500 clutches, and $800 gearboxes (used at that) is a really bad idea.

 

The last time (and only time) 944 spec in Airzona did standing start 2 or 3 cars were broke on the start. Not a good idea. These cars last and last a long time, but are NOT drag cars and are not designed for hard lauches especially with sticky race tires.

 

I am very much against a standing start. Lets just run a normal rolling start. We can handle that fine and you wound need to FCY on the start to drag way busted cars.

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I have two words to solve the issue of bad bunching.

 

Standing Starts

 

 

Chuck will be working with JWL this week (and next) to get the format worked out.

 

 

I have two words for that. BROKEN PARTS.

 

Standing Starts are great way to bust CV joints (if you are lucky), Clutchs or ring and pinions in the gearbox. Look our cars are old and doing standing starts on cars with $100 CV joints, $500 clutches, and $800 gearboxes (used at that) is a really bad idea.

 

The last time (and only time) 944 spec in Airzona did standing start 2 or 3 cars were broke on the start. Not a good idea. These cars last and last a long time, but are NOT drag cars and are not designed for hard lauches ...

 

No one can deny that standing starts are harder on cars, but we've done them several times here in the RM region, and I only recall one problem... Chris lost his clutch disc a few laps into the race last year. It was the stock rubber-centered disc that was 20 years old, and it had been showing signs of needing replacement for about a year before that, so it was really no surprise. Can't really blame the standing start for that.

 

I've never found the need to dump the clutch real hard to get a good launch in my 944... Smoothness works better, and it's nicer to your drivetrain too. Contrary to popular belief, a drag launch isn't about revving your motor up and dumping the clutch as fast and hard as possible. You can still break things no matter what, but it's not like the rest of our racing is immune to that. Hell, I break multiple things every weekend, and it has nothing to do with whatever kind of start we may have.

 

By the way, who's paying $800 for a used gearbox??? I bought my short 5th gearbox on eBay for like under $300 last year... that was a good deal, but it's not unheard of.

 

... especially with sticky race tires.

 

Good thing we're on R888's!

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... especially with sticky race tires.

 

Good thing we're on R888's!

 

Now that's funny right there..... I don't care who you are.

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No one can deny that standing starts are harder on cars....

 

That is my point. Why put extra wear on our cars? What does it gain for us? It it cooler for 30 people watching? We don't need a standing start for a fun and exciting race. Rolling starts work just fine.

 

Hey part of keeping this class low cost is not doing things that do little other than put hardware at greater risk of damage.

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How about allowing cars to bypass any car that is more than X car lenghts behind the car in front to encourage everone to keep it closer during the out lap?

 

Another idea, if a car believes that there is too much of a gap, that car can pull up beside the slow car and motion them and if they don't respond by moving up, go ahead and pass them.

 

It needs to be emphasised that leaving too much of a gap really strings out the rear guys and creates a dangerous situation where they are going fast to catch up at the end and having the potential of a rear ender with cars that are slow and formed up. I know because Joe hit me at PIR and knocked me sideways and into the infield on a start. Of course, he claimed that it was not his fault. (Of course he only bumped me slightly but that is not as good of a story.)

 

Also, what about the grid. NASA has a goofey practice of moving a line up if a car is missing from the grid. If several cars are missing from the same line, that can really screw up the starting order, giving an advantage to a line of cars. Will we have a splitter to keep that from happening? We should. If not, can we do it ourselves by flowing into position as we leave the grid?

 

Big Dog

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NASA has a goofey practice of moving a line up if a car is missing from the grid. If several cars are missing from the same line, that can really screw up the starting order, giving an advantage to a line of cars. Will we have a splitter to keep that from happening? We should. If not, can we do it ourselves by flowing into position as we leave the grid?

Big Dog

 

Really ????? Who does this? This is not how it's supposed to work and is against everything in the CCR.

 

 

 

Honestly, the best way to make sure the field is packed is to warn the drivers one of 2 things will happen. 1) Any cars out of place at the start will be black flagged for a stop and go. 2) The starter waves off the start and you all have a race that gets 5 minutes shorter each time you screw it up.

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...creates a dangerous situation where they are going fast to catch up at the end and having the potential of a rear ender with cars that are slow and formed up. I know because Joe hit me at PIR and knocked me sideways and into the infield on a start. Of course, he claimed that it was not his fault. (Of course he only bumped me slightly but that is not as good of a story.) Big Dog

 

 

Jim,

I know you are just yanking my chain, but on that start I was formed up right on your back nice and tight. I was on part throttle maintaing pace when I got wacked from behind. I knew the green was about to fall and I was not about to hit the brakes and create a bigger mess. Unfortunalty I was hit hard enough to roll into to and give you a tap. Not your fault or my fault. Even then it was not too much gap in the filed that caused that, but I think a near jump start. So different issue.

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If we're smart enough to get, set-up and maintain these cars for racing I'm sure we can manage to have good double file starts. One wave off and maybe a black flag ought to make sure those lagging will "get-up to speed".

Lee

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I think this problem of forming up properly before the green flag is best taken care of through communication on this specific topic at the driver's meeting(s). Joe, we will have driver's meetings at nationals, yes?

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The few times I've had pole position, what worked EVERY time is to NOT change RPM's after the pace car leaves the field and second place car leaves his or her mirror centi meters from pole's mirror and although it seems like an eternity for the green flag to drop, all cars are bunched up!!! I vote for a black flag for any racer that does not have the self control or car control to NOT change RPM's even 1 rpm. After the thounsands of dollars of damage at Cal Speedway a couple of years ago and the many destroyed cars, I am quite passionate about this!!!!!

 

Since this race may be televised I think it should be the best show ever put on by 944 spec and we should attempt to put on the best show of any race ever, this could potentially be a non passing boring race, so why not have an inverted start? There is lots a space and time to finish were we would finish anyway!

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Dave,

Looking at that video... it seems really clear. Don't go untill green. Front row "went" when the pace car pulled off. That caused the back end to want to go too. However they backed off when get did NOT get the green. That back off caused the pile up.

 

So... don't go until green.

 

BTW... Norm does a nice job on starts just like you are supposed to. Hold speed of the pace car until green then go. Not a moment before.

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I am back east (WV) visiting family, not getting to check mail very often, Dave I have some nice shots of those cars litterally piled up on each other, our 944's didn't get it that bad at Fontana and fortunatley no one got hurt, we had one really good fellow racer that threw in the towel on our "cheap" racing after having his car smashed up pretty good, althought it really wasn't 944's that started the mess, I can't find the video of it now, but It was some Jap cars, I think Honda's that were ahead of us, that is one really good reason for us to have our own group start so we don't have to depend on anyone but our own for a clean start.

 

How about an inverted start? Possible?

 

Thanks for the start compliment Joe I hope to not need as much of your coaching this year before the race, but if I do thanks in advance and Dave, I love you you too man!

 

I am still praying for a green flag to get there, temperature permiting I may drive the race car pulling a trailer, but I am getting excited about seeing everybody again.

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our 944's didn't get it that bad at Fontana and fortunatley no one got hurt, we had one really good fellow racer that threw in the towel on our "cheap" racing after having his car smashed up pretty good, althought it really wasn't 944's that started the mess, I can't find the video of it now, but It was some Jap cars, I think Honda's that were ahead of us, that is one really good reason for us to have our own group start so we don't have to depend on anyone but our own for a clean start.

 

I saw a video of that, shot from the stands, a while back on a Honda road racing forum, but it's gone now. I do remember the Honda Challenge guys trying to blame the 944's for wrecking, even though you could see the accordion action caused by the Hondas at the front.

 

Edit: Here's a different video that shows the inconsistent speed up front: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=684122153588367135

(the camera car also got hit from behind before the green dropped)

 

 

The problem with inverted starts, aside from the increased odds of body contact, the element of randomness it adds, issues with sandbagging (intentional or not), and the inevitable mess at Turn 1, is that the guy starting on pole probably doesn't have very much experience. I'm in favor of a traditional start for Nationals.

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I well remember an unnamed driver getting sideways during the Saturday Miller race last year! I tend to agree with Weston on not doing inverted starts for Nationals, but if I happen to end up on pole (from being last in qualifiing), I will be ok with that. Just alot more pressure.

Lee

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