HC 2 Engine Choices, if you had it to do over again....

[Hooked]

Let me get this out of the way up front. I am a total newb to the scene. I've got the goal of getting a racing license next year and then join HC2 racing in Northern California if I get that far.

 

I'm fortunate enough to have picked up a great fully track ready and HC capable '99 Si owned by some great drivers, Roger Foo back in the early 2000's and prop recogn to the last owner, Derek Welch, who hauled some ass around tracks here as well. Derek got the weight of this car down to 2,084, no fuel. External res shocks, so +75lbs right there on top of what else is needed as ballast to met spec.

 

The car currently has a B18C1 demanding 100 octane with a 13:1 compression ratio and a fully polished and ported head by Alaniz Tech among other things making it inelgible for HC2 spec.

 

I'm looking for a B16A that I can work with to meet HC2 specs. A once plentiful engine now getting much harder to come by.

 

So my question is this: Would you pursue the B16A engine or another and why? My preference is to be able to wind the shit out of then engine rather than to have to shift to stay in a "zone".

 

I would greatly appreciate the input of other drivers who have some insight to share on this question/topic. I also appreciate the consideration shown me by the awesome bunch of Nor Cal drivers at the tracks here when I've been in the HPDE and come over to ask a bunch of newb questions. They are always seeking and supporting new drivers in this group. Quite a bit of learning ahead of me, please help me make a good engine choice.

 

Thanks,

Dave

[kostritzer]

Well, my car has yet to turn a wheel at an HC race yet, but I digress.... I think that if I were to choose an engine to use other than the B16 that is currently in my car, I would go B20. 500 bucks + good powerband, more torque and possibly similar horsepower at the same or similar weight. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

[jmeris]

Well, my car has yet to turn a wheel at an HC race yet, but I digress.... I think that if I were to choose an engine to use other than the B16 that is currently in my car, I would go B20. 500 bucks + good powerband, more torque and possibly similar horsepower at the same or similar weight. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

 

B20 NON-VTEC in H2....interesting

 

Although I would rethink whether or not a H2 spec B20 will yield the same hp output as a H2 spec B16a.

 

the B20 will have gobs of more torque though.

[kostritzer]

Depending on how you gear the car, either engine should work well. I love the simplicity and cost effectiveness of the B20 though. Reliability might be better as well since you probably won't have to rev the B20 as high.

 

I'll stick with my B16 for now, but when she goes....500 bucks is 500 bucks!

[Hooked]

Depending on how you gear the car, either engine should work well.

The tranny is an S4C from ’99 Civic Si. Complete rebuild, new seals, bearings and syncros. 4.78 JDM final drive ratio with taller first gear. KAAZ 1.5 way clutch type limited slip differential

[Redstone]

Dave,

 

I've driven our h2 civic with both a B16A & 100% stock jap spec Type R engine. Both setups produced very similar lap times and were very competitive. Our B16 was midly built, stock bottom end (jdm, unknown mileage) h2 spec head, ctr cams, springs & retainers, itr manifold and throttle body, s300. Dyno's 154-156hp with about 108-111 tq (Blacktrax dyno). Stock itr usualy make about 180-185 and about 190 with a good header.

 

Can't go wrong with either set up but the b16 requires a bit more skill to go as fast. It makes almost no torque and is only happy when's it's above 6500. Think of it as a 125cc 2 stroke.

 

Stay away from the H23a non vtec, lock has proved it's fast but not at all reliable. The h22 mAkes great power and killer torque, but at 2600lbs it's not good on the long run. You cAn tell by now I'm in favor of lightweight setups. Much easier on the tires, brakes and trannys.

 

Brian z has shown a well built 1.8 gsr can be real fast. It makes good power (similar too a stock itr) but weighs 100lbs less. Good setup!

 

For $500-800 you get a strong torqey b18b or b20z. Both make decent power (140-150) and make good torque too. Power is on demand and are strong from idle to redline. Much different than the b16 that only gets in the zone at 6k

 

my advice to you. Keep the b18c. Change the pistons out to stock jdm itr so you run 91 octane. The car is not going to be too fast for you.

 

Next time your at the track come over and I'll let you take our h2 b16 civic out for a few laps to compare to your 1.8

[BrianZ]

I 100% agree with Graham. There are several motors that are equally competitive. If your new to racing, just get a legal motor in there and go! There are a few b18b1's (even the K20a3's are doing well) running in H2 in and they are doing really well too.

 

If my car could get to weight I would still have a B18b1 in it..

 

Dave,

 

I've driven our h2 civic with both a B16A & 100% stock jap spec Type R engine. Both setups produced very similar lap times and were very competitive. Our B16 was midly built, stock bottom end (jdm, unknown mileage) h2 spec head, ctr cams, springs & retainers, itr manifold and throttle body, s300. Dyno's 154-156hp with about 108-111 tq (Blacktrax dyno). Stock itr usualy make about 180-185 and about 190 with a good header.

 

Can't go wrong with either set up but the b16 requires a bit more skill to go as fast. It makes almost no torque and is only happy when's it's above 6500. Think of it as a 125cc 2 stroke.

 

Stay away from the H23a non vtec, lock has proved it's fast but not at all reliable. The h22 mAkes great power and killer torque, but at 2600lbs it's not good on the long run. You cAn tell by now I'm in favor of lightweight setups. Much easier on the tires, brakes and trannys.

 

Brian z has shown a well built 1.8 gsr can be real fast. It makes good power (similar too a stock itr) but weighs 100lbs less. Good setup!

 

For $500-800 you get a strong torqey b18b or b20z. Both make decent power (140-150) and make good torque too. Power is on demand and are strong from idle to redline. Much different than the b16 that only gets in the zone at 6k

 

my advice to you. Keep the b18c. Change the pistons out to stock jdm itr so you run 91 octane. The car is not going to be too fast for you.

 

Next time your at the track come over and I'll let you take our h2 b16 civic out for a few laps to compare to your 1.8

Edited July 16, 2009 by Guest

[slammed_93_hatch]

I did the k20a3 swap, and i'd do it over again.

 

 

It proved to get good numbers, ok HP and good tq, and its weight is right in the middle. I raced the super light weight no tq car for 3 years, it was fun but this time i wanted a "middle" ground car.

 

 

IMO the motor's for the class are the B16a, B18c5, and H22a vtec.

[DaveWright]

I did the k20a3 swap, and i'd do it over again.

 

 

It proved to get good numbers, ok HP and good tq, and its weight is right in the middle. I raced the super light weight no tq car for 3 years, it was fun but this time i wanted a "middle" ground car.

 

 

IMO the motor's for the class are the B16a, B18c5, and H22a vtec.

Absolutely. I think the B18c5 is the best all around motor for H2. I have been running it for 2 years with the stock header and ecu and still running strong and very competitive. Always top 3. With a good header and tune I don't think there is a better motor for H2.

[mikeski38]

I really liked the H23 non vtec, cheap, tons of torque, but as graham stated, I was having reliability issues with it. I was slower my first weekend with the H22, but it was really hot, and I think I may actually have to change my setup to compenstate for the add'l weight. Shocker! The H22's are cheap, reliable and fast, only downside are the tranny's.

[jmeris]

If my car could get to wait I would still have a B18b1 in it..

 

Wait? Wait for what?

 

Since the H2 engines are so competitive at their respective min. weights (B16a=2250lbs., B18c1=2400, B18c5=2500lbs.) maybe you should use the engine that is closest to your weight of your car (w/driver).

[slammed_93_hatch]

If my car could get to wait I would still have a B18b1 in it..

 

Wait? Wait for what?

 

Since the H2 engines are so competitive at their respective min. weights (B16a=2250lbs., B18c1=2400, B18c5=2500lbs.) maybe you should use the engine that is closest to your weight of your car (w/driver).

 

I think he meant "weight" lol

 

and i agree, also a reason i went with the k20a3 2300lbs i have to add little to no weight and i don't have to spend $$$ on things to loose weight.

[Redstone]

If my car could get to wait I would still have a B18b1 in it..

 

Wait? Wait for what?

 

Since the H2 engines are so competitive at their respective min. weights (B16a=2250lbs., B18c1=2400, B18c5=2500lbs.) maybe you should use the engine that is closest to your weight of your car (w/driver).

 

I think he meant "weight" lol

 

and i agree, also a reason i went with the k20a3 2300lbs i have to add little to no weight and i don't have to spend $$$ on things to loose weight.

 

I agree with you guys too.

 

For people like Austin who is a heavier driver its almost impossible for him to get his car to min weight. His car is pretty bare bones (no ps, race wiring harness, no oil cooler, basic cage, etc). Ideally if he had the budget he would be better off using a GSR 1.8l and run his car at 2400lbs. Or run a B20z @ 2250 and he would be closer to his min. weight.

 

I'm really interested to see how Jimmy's setup works out. At 2300 lbs it should be really fast (it makes GOOD power/tq). Bob's car is also quick @ 2350 (bob's might be 2400 lbs, not sure).

 

Hopefully Jimmy gets his car back together soon and gets out to do some racing!

[BrianZ]

bobs car was overweight...

 

Just a reminder, my car is more than 75lb overweight..

[slammed_93_hatch]

bobs car was overweight...

 

Just a reminder, my car is more than 75lb overweight..

 

 

I thought at 2400lbs (the old weight) bob was right on?

 

But has to loose some pounds to get to 2350?

 

 

How the heck is your car 75lbs more then bobs? The ABS stuff can't be that much can it??

[slammed_93_hatch]

 

I agree with you guys too.

 

For people like Austin who is a heavier driver its almost impossible for him to get his car to min weight. His car is pretty bare bones (no ps, race wiring harness, no oil cooler, basic cage, etc). Ideally if he had the budget he would be better off using a GSR 1.8l and run his car at 2400lbs. Or run a B20z @ 2250 and he would be closer to his min. weight.

 

I'm really interested to see how Jimmy's setup works out. At 2300 lbs it should be really fast (it makes GOOD power/tq). Bob's car is also quick @ 2350 (bob's might be 2400 lbs, not sure).

 

Hopefully Jimmy gets his car back together soon and gets out to do some racing!

 

 

Austin,

 

I forgot to talk to you about this at the last race and forgot until this came up.

 

My car with the K series (something like 45-65 lbs heavier then the B series) came across the scales at 2090lbs with no driver no spliter and 8 gallons of gas...

 

last time we talked i couldn't remember what the weight of my car was with no driver.. just for comparisons..

[Redstone]

Our #7 H2 car is 2310 at the start of the race, and right on 2280 after the race. Its 2120 w/o driver and about 9 or 9.5 gallons of gas.

 

So its about 2060 dry.

 

Brian, where's all the weight coming from in your car? You carrying around lead in the trunk just for fun?

[BrianZ]

DC's are a little heavy.. (and the driver is not super light either).

[AustinG]

Austin,

 

I forgot to talk to you about this at the last race and forgot until this came up.

 

My car with the K series (something like 45-65 lbs heavier then the B series) came across the scales at 2090lbs with no driver no spliter and 8 gallons of gas...

 

last time we talked i couldn't remember what the weight of my car was with no driver.. just for comparisons..

 

No splitter, no driver, and ~3 gallons of gas, the car comes to ~2010. I've since removed the passenger side door bar, and added a splitter.

[Hooked]

Dave,

 

Can't go wrong with either set up but the b16 requires a bit more skill to go as fast. It makes almost no torque and is only happy when's it's above 6500.

Hmm, I'm sure a little short on the "... skill..." part but I found that I do stay in the upper rpm's while on the track.

 

I'm in favor of lightweight setups.

dito here

 

Brian z has shown a well built 1.8 gsr can be real fast. It makes good power (similar too a stock itr) but weighs 100lbs less. Good setup! For $500-800 you get a strong torqey b18b or b20z. Both make decent power (140-150) and make good torque too. Power is on demand and are strong from idle to redline.

That's got my attention. However, do I understand you saying that by swapping motors (meaning the current worked B18C1 to new B16A) I'd bring on an additional~100 lbs to the Si, currently at 2080lb no fuel/no driver?

 

my advice to you. Keep the b18c. Change the pistons out to stock jdm itr so you run 91 octane.

Well yes exactly, that was my first choice to, but the concept was shot down by a trio of guys I trust, starting with Derek, then your brother Mark and Aki at Blacktrax. This particular b18 is too deep into upgrades and prohibitively expensive to revert.

 

Mark thinks I'd like the b16; he showed me some dyno charts on a particular build at Blacktrax that made my jaw drop. You might be familar with that car.

 

Next time your at the track come over and I'll let you take our h2 b16 civic out for a few laps to compare to your 1.8

Awesome, thank you for the offer and perhaps you can take out the Si for grins and we'll lead/follow if possible. Then you'll know what Derek's b18 build is like. However, there is a realistic possibilty that it will be gone by then, but that is tbd.... Edited July 17, 2009 by Guest

[BrianZ]

That's got my attention. However, do I understand you saying that by swapping motors (meaning the current B18C to new B16A) I'd bring on an additional~100 lbs to the Si, currently at 2080lb no fuel/no driver?

 

B16a 2250lb post race weight with driver.

 

B18c 2500lb post race weight with driver.

[Hooked]

B16a 2250lb post race weight with driver.

B18c 2500lb post race weight with driver.

Since the H2 engines are so competitive at their respective min. weights (B16a=2250lbs., B18c1=2400, B18c5=2500lbs.) maybe you should use the engine that is closest to your weight of your car (w/driver).

So with my body weight and a gallon of fuel I hit 2250. jmeris logic points to the b16a or the b18c1. And in my case there's the 75lb remote reservoir weight penalty to tack on.

[AustinG]

That's got my attention. However, do I understand you saying that by swapping motors (meaning the current B18C to new B16A) I'd bring on an additional~100 lbs to the Si, currently at 2080lb no fuel/no driver?

 

B16a 2250lb post race weight with driver.

 

B18c 2500lb post race weight with driver.

 

 

+75 for remote reservoirs, and if the cage is still gusseted, +30 more, net of 105lbs over the spec weight, so the B18C5 would have to weigh in at a whopping 2605lbs, I'm going with the B16A at 2355lbs, anything else and he's over the limit on ballast. The B18C would be nice, but he'd be running at 2505lbs.

 

I'm for the B16A.