vbdgraphics Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 hey racers of GTS at VIR next weekend at VIR, this is Greg Shaffer of Harrisonburg, VA... although i don't post up much on this site, i do spend a fair am't of time looking over all the posts on legality of GTS cars in our region (and elsewhere) and wow is it the burning topic!! for those of you who don't know me personally, i own/rent/sometimes race, a GTS-2, 3 and 4 car (all BMW) in the Mid Atlantic NASA series. it just happens that Valley Dyno Services is located just down the street from me (didn't even realize that until Hyperfest) and so i went there this afternoon to meet up w/ Mr. Riddle who owns/operates the Dyno company to have a chat with him about his thoughts on all this and his future attendence w/ our series in the MA region... (super laid back guy) NOT to offend NASAs Chris Cobetto whatsoever, (he's an old friend of mine when i started racing back in the day), i simply asked Mr. Riddle if they were going to be at VIR next weekend and told him the forums are hot-topic w/ class legality, etc... he replied to me that he is interested in going, for sure, but they needed to make sure it makes sense for his business and expenses and that Hyperfest was 'just barely' enough to make it work for him... he stated that Chris 'guarantees' him 'x' amount of dynos and that VIR was possibly not enough to make it work for him. (Chris, NOT busting balls, read further!) Mr. Riddle seems to be about the most fair person you would ever want to work with, BUT, his means of getting to the races w/ his staff are in his RV to pull the dyno trailer and that is where his staff shacks up while at the track to try and avoid hotel expenses, plus it tows the dyno.. makes sense to me from a business standpoint, right. (not being sarcastic) I pretty much gathered from him that 'if' he could get about 12 dynos (paid at $100 or $110ea?) then it would prob. make sense for sure for him to make the haul to VIR and a little less for a track like Summit Point. But, right now, i think he only has a 'guaranteed' 6 from NASA and so here is a guy who faces the facts that if he "only" does 6 pulls for NASA, he's going to lose his shorts on this deal or maybe just have a 'wash' on it... his RV gets 5-6 miles per gallon he told me and he even said that most all of his 'help' are free and just interested in learning the dyno and some are family that support the business's success for the future. Now, here is my idea... "What If?" the GTS guys were to get together and put up say $50each for Valley Dyno to get to the track??? Even if it's in the highly contested GTS-3 catagory, which if i'm not mistaken, has right around 8-9 entrants for VIR which at $50each would be appx: $400-450 AND if the GTS-2 racers were willing to include (and that is about 5-6 deep) then there is another $250-300 given to Valley Dyno. At this point, Mr. Riddle (and he told me this would DEF make him jump at it, even though he is a very modest person) would be all over it guys!! At that point, he would be able to dyno run the top 3 in both catagories (maybe even GTS4 would comply to this if interested?) for BOTH DAYS of racing coming off the track... NOW, you would have to get NASA on board to actually SCALE the cars as well, because everyone knows, what is the point of doing a dyno w/out weighing the cars prior right off the track and vice versa!!!! (and by the way, it was sort of strange after the Hyperfest Sunday race that top 3 GTS-3 were impounded to dyno, BUT NOT sent through the scales??? everyone in my camp was scratching their heads and although it was fun to drink beer and watch cars on the dyno, it didn't matter WHAT they were pulling on the dyno as they couldn't run the calculator on it once the dyno was over?? not sure what the point was other than forcing the dyno folks to stay to the last minute before packing all that crap up and being the last to leave the track) It might actually even be something more like $25 or $30 per car entered if the entire GTS field were to agree to something like this since i think he would only need around like 4 or 6 more dyno pulls to have it make sense. I do know this, he is completely willing to work w/ us in this series, even if it becomes a 'flat rate' pay specifically from GTS and then he would just try and earn extra business from others at the track over the weekend, etc. and charge them his nomal '3 pull' price.. that would sort of be his 'gravy' for making the haul.. The draw-backs: you would 'think' that if a series is going to host something very specific to legal entries for a fair contest, that your entry fee would/should cover such a service at each race it hosts... however, i can put myself in Cobetto's shoes as well, being a small business owner, and realize that he Does have a budget to work with and stick to.. but if you really think about it from a 'grand scheme' point of view, what is another $25-50 to end some of this bickering about who is legal, and who is not, on the internet and give those racers who are fully compliant to the rules of hp/weight the best possible place to invest their time/money/development for a fair fight on the track w/ NO Fluff out there as to who is where on legality. Hell, some of us spend that much at VIR at the snack-shack in 1 day!!! haha... As i see Jeff Curtis post in many areas on several sites that this is simple guys "it's horsepower to weight" and it's SIMPLE and i could not agree more! If you want trick brakes, purchase lead bricks to actually make your car slower (can't argue w/ simple physics) then so be it... do what you want to your car and the rules are just that "POWER TO WEIGHT"... but if they are to use this simple formula, why not enforce it each and everytime so there is no questions left un-answered, no possible 'un-fair' classifications of cars, etc... Hell, i even see Cobetto just bulk emailing out to everyone letting them know that Valley Dyno will be on site, they will be pulling top 3 in class and explaining to everyone signed up that 'just because you have A dyno sheet, you better make sure you go see Valley Dyno to get the approved dyno sheet for this event" because you WILL get retracted from your finishing position if you don't do this up front to protect yourself... seems pretty simple to me. again, Chris, not busting you nuts as i KNOW you have lots on your plate, but maybe someone from GTS steps up and manages this aspect or someone on his staff to keep after it. When the GTS group busts away from the meeting, each driver would just have a check or cash for Valley Dyno and that gets your tech sticker?? perhaps there are other groups that have a similar issue, but i havn't dug into that... if there were to be other groups that have this issue, that would just make this cheaper overall per racer and all will be pretty happy i would think???????? thanks for reading, DON'T beat me up too bad as i'm just trying to help out w/ what i feel would be a simple way to nip it all in the bud..... Jeff Curtis, if you read this and want to tow it over to Rennlist, have at it, as there is some real crazy stuff there too on Porsche guys thinking their car would not be fair, legal, etc... Thanks for reading. Greg Shaffer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eric W. Posted July 18, 2009 Members Share Posted July 18, 2009 Greg, Thanks for posting and talking with Valley. I agree, they are good guys. I assume at Hyperfest, we were impounded because we had to give them some business. But yea, that was kind of pointless without scales. The only problem with Valley at VIR is that VIR has an on-site dyno. If I remember correctly, outside dyno operators might not be allowed because it is a conflict. That is how the whole GTS/Dyno compliance thread started. There was no effective way of ensuring compliance at VIR because protests must be run on Dynojet, but VIR's is not. However, this may change shortly. As noted in our Hyperfest GTS meeting, Ian mentioned Cobetto, and the powers that be have already done back to back testing and might soon be able to use the VIR dyno for compliance. The dyno there already has a Dynojet correction factor. I also think Valley had less business because of poor planning at Hyperfest. Hyperfest allowed for two dyno operators to run. The other dyno took a lot of business from Valley. I think at prior events, Valley has had a lot of customers. I'd double check the status on the rule for having a dyno brought in and if it is allowed. If so, I think he would get enough business. VIR is much less hectic than Summit, and he could setup right in the paddock. People wouldnt have to drive all the way out to the main gate for a dyno, and he'd be much more visible (and audible) in the VIR paddock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbdgraphics Posted July 19, 2009 Author Share Posted July 19, 2009 Eric, Mr. Riddle told me that Cobetto is already expecting him to be there so i really don' think there is conflict w/ VIPER, especially since they are "non-profit" company supported by local university(s). Let's get behind this and have a way for the money end of it to make sense for Valley and the problem is solved. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eric W. Posted July 19, 2009 Members Share Posted July 19, 2009 Eric, Mr. Riddle told me that Cobetto is already expecting him to be there so i really don' think there is conflict w/ VIPER, especially since they are "non-profit" company supported by local university(s). Let's get behind this and have a way for the money end of it to make sense for Valley and the problem is solved. Greg Sweet. I need to get my new motor dyno'd anyways! I think maybe if he lowered price, he might attract more customers too? I really think Hyperfest was a fluke though as he seems to have had more customers in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbdgraphics Posted July 19, 2009 Author Share Posted July 19, 2009 well, that's just it.. unless we can find another way to get Valley a little more money 'guaranteed' i don't think we are going to be seeing them at all at VIR. you get yourself back up and running w/ another motor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eric W. Posted July 19, 2009 Members Share Posted July 19, 2009 you get yourself back up and running w/ another motor? Im SUPPOSED to pick it up Tuesday. Keeping fingers crossed. Then spend Weds putting it together and back into my car. See ya Friday! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbdgraphics Posted July 20, 2009 Author Share Posted July 20, 2009 nice... good luck and see you on Fri. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trackrocket Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 WOW, sorry I didn't see this post before the event...I was CRAZY busy, doing things from setting up the house, getting it ready to sale, trying to "scrape" up used brake pads to make it so my car would stop safely this weekend, and so on. Did Valley Dyno Services make it this weekend? I had heard there was another dyno but honestly...didn't see one. I was NOT that "mobile" about the paddock this weekend as I have in the past as we were busy as hell with participants, etc. In the future, yes, I would entertain striking up the same topic over on Rennlist and I would gladly contribute, whether it's blood, sweat or $$$$$$$ to keep the GTS series compliant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingDog Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 One thing you might want to pitch Mr Riddle on for October is that AI and CMC need to have dyno certs done AFTER the last race of the previous year. This year, the last race is October VIR. With the last points race being Saturday, Valley could potentially get a bunch of business that Sunday without needing to stay late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eric W. Posted July 28, 2009 Members Share Posted July 28, 2009 Jeff, There was a Miata team that had a mobile DynoJet onsite in case there were protests. Valley should be at Summit in August so hopefully I'll get a few dyno passes for GTS we can use. I'll volunteer to be protested... I need a dyno once I get my new tune... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbdgraphics Posted August 1, 2009 Author Share Posted August 1, 2009 Eric, do you think we can muster up a few bucks for the August Summit race to get Valley Dyno there and impound each race to keep things on the up and up??? it seems as if Jeff Curtis is on board and i think this will keep everyone in line with the compliance of the series... i'm game for tossing in a few bucks if that will get them the pulls they need to make it work out. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eric W. Posted August 1, 2009 Members Share Posted August 1, 2009 Eric, do you think we can muster up a few bucks for the August Summit race to get Valley Dyno there and impound each race to keep things on the up and up??? it seems as if Jeff Curtis is on board and i think this will keep everyone in line with the compliance of the series... i'm game for tossing in a few bucks if that will get them the pulls they need to make it work out. Greg let's wait for entry list to be published so we know there are.going to be enough cars to make this worthwhile. We should also coordinate with some of the other CMC guys. Maybe make an announcement that Valley will do some discounted dynos? Maybe that would get some HPDE guys to do some pulls as well? I don't mind paying a few bucks to get them there, but i'd also like to see valley do a lil on their end to trump up business as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trackrocket Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 I'm under the impression that Valley Dyno will at least be at the Summit Point events for GTS and AI/CMC compliance, but I can confirm with Chris. Really, I'm all for it...there is nothing that grates my nerves more than when I suspect someone is "cheating" the dyno #s in a CLUB series... Anything that can be worked out to get 'em there and to ensure that GTS is sending the top 3 or handing out "random" tickets to the dyno would be the best and only way to ensure compliance. I just hope they get a bit more serious about weighing us as a dyno means NOTHING if they don't weigh us when we come off the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottbm3 Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Doesn't your region have scales ? We have scales at tech for all the Great Lakes Region and Midwest Region events. Not the tracks scales, but ones from the region. How can you have compliance for any of the classes without scales? What kind of tech do you have ? Seems odd. A dyno would be nice also ! -Scott B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eric W. Posted August 4, 2009 Members Share Posted August 4, 2009 Doesn't your region have scales ? We have scales at tech for all the Great Lakes Region and Midwest Region events. Not the tracks scales, but ones from the region. How can you have compliance for any of the classes without scales? What kind of tech do you have ? Seems odd. A dyno would be nice also ! -Scott B. We have scales, just lack of dyno at all events. And the one dyno operator that typically comes is having 2nd thoughts since he isnt making money. On the one hand, I want to have compliance and help get a dyno out there, but on the other, I dont want to be bailing out/subsidizing his services. I'll be willing to throw some money his way, but he needs to also try to do something on his business end to get customers too. Im willing to bet with our guaranteed business, plus his lower prices, he'd make out easy. The guy at MidOhio does just fine without any help right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trackrocket Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Yeah, lemme clarify...we were sent to the dyno at one event, yet tech. waved us off for the scales - we all agreed going to the dyno was pointless at that point but went anyway...because Martin brought beer. We usually get weighed, sometimes on the track's scales at VIR, which is nice...but year after year, there seems to be issues with keeping a dyno operator present. ...and yes, I'm certain it's a $$$$$$$ issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbdgraphics Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 Me and Eric are chatting about this tonight.. i would say one thing for sure would be that Cobetto should certainly make the scales mandatory if a group is sent to dyno, agreed? i'm sure we agree, but can someone reach out to Chris on this to not have that happen?? i'm sure we can get something rolling w/ Valley (at least Summit being solid and then move on to VIR scenario) that makes good sense on both ends for him and the racers and i'm willing to talk with Valley about it this week w/ ideas of lower pricing, making him a banner at my cost that displays nicely outside his dyno rig, but then trying to see if someone would get w/ Cobetto to see if he could "bullhorn" an announcement for his services while all at the event (DE included) are all hands at the meeting to hear about a great service for a great price. Maybe Cobetto would be open for a simple flyer inside each persons packet for a quick advertisement? i go back to my original post though, if Cobetto would just guarantee him just a few more pulls (and not at the very end of the day when Valley knows that the scales were not even open! that actually upset him a little to hear because he used to be a racer! haha) then he's "in there like swimwear"!! then he would know that the rest of the weekend is just trying to market and get the gravy aspect. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottbm3 Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Yeah, lemme clarify...we were sent to the dyno at one event, yet tech. waved us off for the scales - we all agreed going to the dyno was pointless at that point but went anyway...because Martin brought beer. We usually get weighed, sometimes on the track's scales at VIR, which is nice...but year after year, there seems to be issues with keeping a dyno operator present. ...and yes, I'm certain it's a $$$$$$$ issue. Your series director should tell the race director who he wants to go to tech(who should also be notified) after the race/qualifying. The racers should be told as they are coming off the track and go straight to scales, do not pass go etc etc.... Without scaling the cars the dyno is irrelevant especially when you get a -4 HP. allowance and the actual weight of your car could determine if your still compliant or not. Eric knows what I'm talking about !! Well at least that's how we do it in the GL and MW regions and it works really well for us. -Scott B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbdgraphics Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 Couldn't agree more ScottB.! That race that Trackrocket is speaking of was, from what i understood, just to make a 'quota' for the our dyno guy to get the pulls he was guaranteed, but he would have just soon packed up his outfit and gone home if there were no scales involved to really test any compliance.. that's the issue i feel. Instead, the poor guys had to be the last ones to leave the track for no real reason that day anyways, other than BEER!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eric W. Posted August 4, 2009 Members Share Posted August 4, 2009 Couldn't agree more ScottB.! That race that Trackrocket is speaking of was, from what i understood, just to make a 'quota' for the our dyno guy to get the pulls he was guaranteed, but he would have just soon packed up his outfit and gone home if there were no scales involved to really test any compliance.. that's the issue i feel. Instead, the poor guys had to be the last ones to leave the track for no real reason that day anyways, other than BEER!! Greg, fairly certain that was a one time anamoly. All the other times we have been dyno'd by Valley, we went to scales first. Im sure he remembers all the past events besides Hyperfest. Maybe he can give NASA impound discounted rate and therefore we can get more cars on the dyno too. There are only a limited number Cobetto gives us. Scott, correct. That is how it should be done and how it has been done in the past. Hyperfest is just crazy and busy. Scheduling was probably out of whack and prolly a one time thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianacole Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Scott, correct. That is how it should be done and how it has been done in the past. Hyperfest is just crazy and busy. Scheduling was probably out of whack and prolly a one time thing. There was also a significant amount of moisture, which could cause problems with cars getting on the scales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nasa ser Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 for what its worth, the PTE contingent of mid-atlantic would contribute to the dyno as well, we have a power to weight ratio this year and need to be dynoed and scaled as well I have 4 guaranteed committments of dyno runs if that helps convince the dyno to come Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.