Non standard TOYO payout for Nationals.

[Chuck T.]

Drivers thinking about Nationals or if your going !!!

 

We need just a few more to guarantee 30 starters for our main race ! this will DOUBLE our TOYO cash payout

 

If you have not heard about the non standard toyo payout or have questions PLEASE contact your local series director.

 

"Low cost equal racing" !

[Big Dog]

Hi, I have heard a little about a "non standard" payout and I have a very big issue with it.

 

First, let me say that I have encouraged a different payout in the Arizona region and have agreed to give up Toyo Bucks to spread out the money to a larger group. I would support that in any region I race with.

 

I am fine with that for the National race with the provision that, if I am torn down, I do not agree to a reduced payout for what ever position I finish in (assuming that I finish in a payout position at all). My reason for this is that I have been told that if NASA initiates a tear down, the GCR's provide that they have NO obligation to rebuild what they tore down. They can just give me my engine back in boxes. In that case, I would insist on my full payout so I can use any money to have my engine put back together. I believe that any of the top finishers should have the same consideration in the event they are torn down.

 

I assume that everyone (or at least the top finishers) will have to agree on any reduced payout for this to work. If that is the case, I agree to a reduced payout with the exception as stated above.

 

Big Dog

[AvantAddict]

Hi, I have heard a little about a "non standard" payout and I have a very big issue with it.

 

First, let me say that I have encouraged a different payout in the Arizona region and have agreed to give up Toyo Bucks to spread out the money to a larger group. I would support that in any region I race with.

 

I am fine with that for the National race with the provision that, if I am torn down, I do not agree to a reduced payout for what ever position I finish in (assuming that I finish in a payout position at all). My reason for this is that I have been told that if NASA initiates a tear down, the GCR's provide that they have NO obligation to rebuild what they tore down. They can just give me my engine back in boxes. In that case, I would insist on my full payout so I can use any money to have my engine put back together. I believe that any of the top finishers should have the same consideration in the event they are torn down.

 

I assume that everyone (or at least the top finishers) will have to agree on any reduced payout for this to work. If that is the case, I agree to a reduced payout with the exception as stated above.

 

Big Dog

 

So, if you're not on the podium, you want those on the podium to share more money, but if you're on the podium, you don't want to share with anyone else???

 

I signed up knowing that I had a very good chance of winning no money. I also signed up knowing that if I were to finish well, that I would be responsible for any costs associated with a possible tear down. With that, regardless of my finishing position, I'm all for sharing the money amongst all the racers.

 

I also suggest that everyone be familiar with the CCR so they will know that no one from NASA will ever tear down your motor.

[Weston]

From what I've been told, there will be tear downs for the top finishers, but it's not going to be unreasonable. I haven't heard any talk of a complete tear down, just pulling the head or whatever so that it can be verified that there's no funny business inside the motor. Pull the head and you're only looking at about $60 in gaskets to put things back together.

 

Another idea is that we dyno the cars after they come off the track... if the HP & Torque numbers are in the typical range, and those curves are the usual shape, then maybe we don't have to bother with a tear down? That also tells us who's car we need to look at more closely for things like DME modification, offset woodruff keys, and tricks inside the engine.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Guest

[Big Dog]

David, I don't believe that you have paraphrased my post correctly, at all.

 

Jim

[AvantAddict]

David, I don't believe that you have paraphrased my post correctly, at all.

 

Jim

 

Let me clarify, if you do well and have to have your engine inspected, you don't want to share the money. If you don't get your engine inspected, then you'll share.

 

Is that your position?

[Chuck T.]

Good points Jim .

 

The cost of tear down rebuilds should be a factor in this. We will look into that.

 

The main idea here is to get us to over 30 cars for Sundays race. If we are under 30 then full payout to first will be HALF of the over 30 payout . If we can get a few more cars to make the trip then the payout will stay the same to the top 6ish .

 

Hey Dave, Jim is a pot stirring kind of guy. So with that in mind I would target his liklyhood (or that of any AZ driver) of even making the podium vs what his tear down will cost

 

BuWhAAAAA

[cbuzz]

I am going to enter twice to boost the field

 

That way if I finish on the podium I can get paid twice hahahahahaha. Sounds like a good investment opportunity.

 

Is the entry count correct? It looks like we are still at 27.

 

I have no problem with the payout system as it is. I do like the dyno idea for the top 5 cars. If all looks good then check the rest of the vehicle.

[944-Spec#94]

The main idea here is to get us to over 30 cars for Sundays race. If we are under 30 then full payout to first will be HALF of the over 30 payout . If we can get a few more cars to make the trip then the payout will stay the same to the top 6ish..

 

Yes this is a key point.

 

payout for 15-29 cars is 50% of that of 30+ starters. So once we get to 30+ we get double the money and is is in effect that money that goes to 7th to 30th (or 40th).

 

So standard payout for the top 5 with 15-29 cars gets 2000, 1500, 1000, 500, 350

 

Top 5 with 30+ starter could get 2000, 1500, 1000, 500, 375 with the remainder to 7th on down.

 

We are on the edge of 30+ and we need to get number. If you can spead the payout so not just top 5-6 get something it sure makes fighting for 25th place alot more interesting. Heck I think we can pay out at least $100 to 30th.

 

That is the idea behind this payout.. To reward all the guys who will be fighing hard in the race and will have put in alot of effort just to get there. It is still very biased to the top 5, but does provide an incentive to all the backmakers to show up and run. Otherwise it may seem like if you can't run in the top 5 why go? There are very many reasons to run national even if you don't expect to better than mid pack and this payout will be one of them.

 

As for the count. Yes at 27 right now. We will need more to sign-up as we need 30 STARTERS to get all the payout. So consider that some may have issues we need 35+ entries to make sure we have 30 starters. Now of course we really want even more as we want to be the biggest single class at Nationals in 2009 and possible ever.

 

As for the tech requirements... The goal is to ensure the cars are legal. This is the biggest race in the history of this class and we need to ensure cars are follwing the rules. So tech will be geared to do that. The intention is to ensure compliance not make more work for the drivers. Their are many ways in which that can be done.

[cbuzz]

Another issue comes up for anyone running a second class. I will be racing in Spec and GTS-1. So will a few others as far as I can tell.

 

If there is a tear down this really puts pressure on the team to get the car back together for the next warm up. Even if it is just the head it is still many hours of work once the car is released back to the team. GTS-1 runs the following day so there is time to get it done but it leaves the door open for a mistake in re-assembly. If possible it would be great if any one running a second class can have the tear down done after second race/TT.

 

The car could be put into a "Park Ferme" area where only the team can work on car with supervision. Just some thoughts.

 

I am opposed to changing the payout schedule, please leave it as it is.

 

Of the 27 cars registered I would guess that at least half of them know they are not in the running for a top 5 finish. They are there for the experience.

 

Charlie

#999

[AvantAddict]

Another issue comes up for anyone running a second class. I will be racing in Spec and GTS-1. So will a few others as far as I can tell.

 

If there is a tear down this really puts pressure on the team to get the car back together for the next warm up. Even if it is just the head it is still many hours of work once the car is released back to the team. GTS-1 runs the following day so there is time to get it done but it leaves the door open for a mistake in re-assembly. If possible it would be great if any one running a second class can have the tear down done after second race/TT.

 

The car could be put into a "Park Ferme" area where only the team can work on car with supervision. Just some thoughts.

 

I am opposed to changing the payout schedule, please leave it as it is.

 

Of the 27 cars registered I would guess that at least half of them know they are not in the running for a top 5 finish. They are there for the experience.

 

Charlie

#999

 

I am amazed at how many people don't read the CCR. The issue you mention is covered in the CCR.

[cbuzz]

Yep I will admit to not reading the CCR's.

 

By a show of hands how many have read them.

 

That's what I thought.

 

Later.

[Weston]

Yep I will admit to not reading the CCR's.

 

By a show of hands how many have read them.

 

That's what I thought.

 

Later.

 

I've read the sections of the CCR that are relevant to our racing, but I'm certainly not one who remembers it word for word and can go around quoting scripture from memory. I don't remember any clear information in the CCR about this either, so I looked... I'm thinking that Dave is talking about 17.2, which addresses your concerns, but uses unclear words like "may" and does not give you a solid answer.

 

...

 

Any competition vehicle that has been impounded may be required to remain in impound

for the necessary time to allow inspection. The competitor may not be allowed to

compete in other races until the impound procedures are finished. On occasion, if

possible, the protested item may be sealed and the competitor allowed to compete. The

car would then be inspected after the race. If the seal is missing or broken, the

competitor will be subject to penalties for non-compliance.

 

I don't see much commitment there, mostly just speculation about what could happen, so it's essentially useless for any solid planning.

[944-Spec#94]

There are provisions for supersize racers so that one inspection does not hind he ability to race in the other class. This issue has been adressed by NASA is not new.

[AvantAddict]

Weston,

 

It's not like we are racing at the same level as Formula 1. Do you really think that if you were asked to tear down your motor for inspection at impound, and that you informed the tech inspector and the race director that you were racing in another class, that they wouldn't allow you to race and have the tear down be after your other race?

 

As I'm prefer to be an optimist rather than a pessimist, I would think that this wouldn't be a problem as there is a provision for this in the rules.

[Weston]

Weston,

 

It's not like we are racing at the same level as Formula 1. Do you really think that if you were asked to tear down your motor for inspection at impound, and that you informed the tech inspector and the race director that you were racing in another class, that they wouldn't allow you to race and have the tear down be after your other race?

 

I agree, but as I said, there are no guarantees in that part of the CCR, so it's an assumption at best. The fact that they specifically worded it to avoid any sort of commitment is their way of telling us to not depend on it, unless we see something else that better addresses this issue. Sounds like Joe found something that covers it adequately...

[bpanther]

How about the fact that your race director and event chairman aren't a couple of a-holes....? No worries, the point of nationals is to have fun, race hard, win a few $$ and put your car back on the trailer in more or less the same condition as you pulled it off. If you are willing to supersize for some extra fun, then we aren't going to beat you down - if we need to look at something invasive we will wait till your supersize race is over.

 

If you ain't cheatin, don't worry about having your engine handed back to you in pieces. If you are cheatin, stay home and keep your car in one piece.

[Big Dog]

Thanks, Dave.

 

I guess that we can take this "To the Bank"

 

Big Dog

[Tim Comeau]

I really like this statement from Mr. Balingit, so let's repeat it in bold.

 

No worries, the point of nationals is to have fun, race hard, win a few $$ and put your car back on the trailer in more or less the same condition as you pulled it off.

 

I've had to scale back my efforts for a National title because of several factors regarding my business. Like too much renting and not enough driving myself!, selling the car I was bringing to Nationals, etc. ( I'll get a cage in another car!) All good stuff, but.....

I had threatened earlier that I would be there to win, but now, I'll just be there to be a part of it, to share the enthusiasm for our 944's, and to continue helping to grow the class.

I have a huge emotional and rather large financial commitment to the growth and success of this class. This is my 7th year of pushing our dream of equal cars, low cost Porsche racing. We need to show NASA and the rest of the country that 944 Spec is the preeminent 944 class.

So I would encourage all of you to push hard as well. Let's all make sure that as many of us that can go, actually end up going to Nationals.

 

Let's keep building it!

[bpanther]

Mr. Balingit

 

Wow.... no one calls me Mr. Balingit. I'm liking this!!!

 

 

Nationals is fun. Yeah it's a race, but it's more about the week you spend there. Missing it is kinda like if you area kid and your parents go to Disneyland and leave you with grandma for the week.

[Tim Comeau]

DOH!!

 

Salamat po!

[bpanther]

Salamat po!

 

Now he's really trying to butter me up.....