TT Shock $$$ ???

[Trevor57]

I would love to see some input from a person who actually understands suspension setup.

[kbrew8991]

I didn't have a problem with what we have, its just that we need a mechanism to enforce its intent.. which seems to be very problematic. The general categories and points levels from them are fine, if I were writing them I'd pull the price cap portion off and call it a day

[krisa9977]

I didn't have a problem with what we have, its just that we need a mechanism to enforce its intent.. which seems to be very problematic. The general categories and points levels from them are fine, if I were writing them I'd pull the price cap portion off and call it a day

 

Very good idea!

 

BTW. I'm going to show up with 2010 Chevrolet Comaro SS at Road Atlanta. Is the any way you can come up with its TT class?

[kbrew8991]

thats a Greg question - could always slap it in TTS or U though

[jason]

BTW. I'm going to show up with 2010 Chevrolet Comaro SS at Road Atlanta. Is the any way you can come up with its TT class?

1:37 and slower = TTA

1:36 and faster = TTS

[krisa9977]

BTW. I'm going to show up with 2010 Chevrolet Comaro SS at Road Atlanta. Is the any way you can come up with its TT class?

1:37 and slower = TTA

1:36 and faster = TTS

 

I don't think that I'm gona be able to go faster then 1:43 with this 100% stock Comaro on street tires. But I'm in the process of getting another car that I'm sure will be capable to run close to 1:37. I drove the same car in other track and it was faster then my BMW M3 in TTB configuration. Going by current rules it will be TTC car!

[DanSTi]

I would love to see some input from a person who actually understands suspension setup.

Here are a few basic points about the advantages of some of the higher end dampers, regardless of what spring rates you choose to run:

 

-Adjustable nitrogen pressure: This is a big one. The average off the shelf damper uses anywhere from almost 0 to about 75 psi of gas pressure. Most dampers with adjustable pressure (JRZ, Moton, etc.) can handle up to around 300 psi. This is obviously overkill but the ability to run in the neighborhood of 150 psi helps a ton with damper response. The initial ramp up in low speed compression is sharper, which is what really makes a difference. Gas pressure also helps prevent fluid cavitation, which can cause inconsistent damper performance and overheating of the fluid.

 

-External canisters: The benefits of these are twofold. One purpose they serve is to free up some space inside the main damper housing. Monotube damper components take up more space than twin tube internals. So the external canisters allow a monotube damper to maintain a good amount of travel. They also increase fluid capacity, which helps to prevent overheating. Hot oil=reduced viscosity, which hurts damper performance.

 

-Greater range/control over adjustability: Obviously, a 4-way damper can be a huge advantage in the right hands. Unfortunately, most of us don't have the knowledge or equipment to properly tune a set of 4-ways. But even a high end 2-way adjustable damper is far superior to a lesser 2-way. If you throw a set of JRZ's on a shock dyno and test the difference that each "click" of adjustment causes, it's significant. Each click makes a difference that can absolutely be felt. This is also why these dampers can support a huge range of spring rates, even though they only have 10 to 15 clicks for each adjustment. On the other hand, most low end 2 ways will have 25 or more clicks of adjustment, and you will have to change settings by several clicks to really make a significant difference. It is also pretty common for lower end dampers to be mismatched from side to side. And a lot of the really entry level stuff uses universal dampers with mounting parts adapted to specific cars.

 

I think this rule is pretty much impossible to enforce in a way that truly levels the field. You can add more points for things like external canisters and adjustable gas pressure, but even something like a Koni 8611, which has neither of these things, is head and shoulders above something like a Megan or KSport. So I guess this is a little off topic, but hopefully it clears a few things up that may be useful.

[eMINI]

I don't think that I'm gona be able to go faster then 1:43 with this 100% stock Comaro on street tires. But I'm in the process of getting another car that I'm sure will be capable to run close to 1:37. I drove the same car in other track and it was faster then my BMW M3 in TTB configuration. Going by current rules it will be TTC car!

 

Care to share the details? Inquiring (TTC) minds want to know...

[JamesL]

Suggestion:

 

1) Non-OEM shocks/struts/dampers with an external reservoir or more than two ranges of

adjustment—must still take points for springs below +10 (example: compression (bump)

and both high & low rebound adjustments).

2) Single or Double adjustable non-OEM shocks/struts/dampers if used along with non-OEM springs higher then 1001 lbs/in.

Also “Piggyback” external reservoir shocks/coilovers/dampers +7

3) Non-OEM or modified/re-valved shocks/struts/dampers +3 (all others)(springs not included)

 

 

The spring rate rule automatically penalizes all cars with low motion ratios... it is effectively putting certain cars at a disadvantage. And the base classing rules are supposed to address these differences in the first place.

 

The only way to fairly implement this rule would be to assess the actual wheel rate, not the spring rate used.

[krisa9977]

I don't think that I'm gona be able to go faster then 1:43 with this 100% stock Comaro on street tires. But I'm in the process of getting another car that I'm sure will be capable to run close to 1:37. I drove the same car in other track and it was faster then my BMW M3 in TTB configuration. Going by current rules it will be TTC car!

 

Care to share the details? Inquiring (TTC) minds want to know...

 

It is BMW Z4 3.0 Coupe. I'm buying this car to build a race car for next VLN (Nurburgring endurance race in Germany) season. In the production category it is the fastest car in its class. Before I ship it to Germany and put a roll cage in, I'm planning on doing some TT events this year in States with this car.

 

The only difference between stock car and race car is different suspension. It is rebuild single adjustable Bilstein PSS9 suspension with some different internal parts. The cost of that suspension is the biggest question. The suspension itself cost around 2000$. Plus cost to rebuild it and different parts. TMS sales the similar suspension, for E36 M3 for 2025$.

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=E36TMSWC" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

It is almost as good as racing Motons. I know that all the best teams who racing at Nurburgring use that suspension. Right after I replaced my TCK suspension with those shocks, I was able to shave 16 seconds off my best lap time (one lap is about 15 miles) at Nurburgring and got my first podium finish.

 

But anyway, even if this car would be in TTC, I'll probably run it in TTB to avoid all the quesions.

[Mrsideways]

So is it built, we gonna see a 37 this weekend?

[krisa9977]

So is it built, we gonna see a 37 this weekend?

 

No, it is not gona be ready for this weekend. I just ordered suspension from Germany. It takes about a month to build it and ship it here.

[Mrsideways]

Bummer, I'd like to see a C car run a 37.

[Varkwso]

Bummer, I'd like to see a C car run a 37.

 

Me too. It is only a matter of time.

[krisa9977]

Now I know, Ian's Mini can do 37

[BlkGt3]

I think the competition is going to lower all TT records. People are getting serious about building cars to the limits of the rules, not just run what you own. On paper the Z4 3.0 looks real good for a FAST TTC car.

 

Peter

[JamesL]

Since this thread made its way back to the top of the subforum, is there any more info you can give us on the damper rules for next year Greg?

 

I was planning on putting the Koni 8611 insert in my strut housings... it is a 2way damper without reservoirs, that costs roughly $225. Its single adjustable counterpart only costs $40 less. They are Koni's "Improved Touring" strut inserts... not exactly high end dampers. I would like to use the dual adjustable unit, but if that means taking +7 instead of +3 next year, and competing (points wise) with AST 5200s and 2 way JRZs/Motons, I'll rethink my choice.

[Grant]

The only way to fairly implement this rule would be to assess the actual wheel rate, not the spring rate used.

That would penalize heavy cars. I think ride frequency encompasses all the variables you're trying to measure.

[Mrsideways]

In the Cold on a traffic free lap. Yeah she might make 37's. Depending on how cold because temp alone can make 2 seconds easy. At Sebring it's a 4 second difference from a 90 degree day to a 50 degree day in the SSC car. But That Z4 could be a real monster in TTC too. Built right with the right that thing could be quite quick. The Cold is gonna help the FI car more then the NA car.

I think you could make one hell of a TTD Mini. I just surpassed that in points a long time ago. No going back.

[JamesL]

The only way to fairly implement this rule would be to assess the actual wheel rate, not the spring rate used.

That would penalize heavy cars. I think ride frequency encompasses all the variables you're trying to measure.

 

Good point.

[krisa9977]

I think you could make one hell of a TTD Mini. I just surpassed that in points a long time ago. No going back.

 

I was thinking about TTC. AST 5100, headers, pulley, air intake, custom engine tuning and racing slicks. I think it is the most competitive setup for this car

[Weed Wacker]

The only way to fairly implement this rule would be to assess the actual wheel rate, not the spring rate used.

That would penalize heavy cars. I think ride frequency encompasses all the variables you're trying to measure.

 

Only problem with that is it would be hell to enforce. The way the rules are written now are about as fair as you can get and still be able to enforce/tech/check, whatever you want to call it. People with a basic understanding of shock tech will know the same stuff you guys are talking about as far as AST's vs Koni sports and take advantage of it or complain. The people that don't get it will just wonder why theare getting rocked/ think your cheating.

 

Just sayin...

[AZELISE]

Since this has returned to the original topic, here is my opinion:

 

OEM non adjustable optional shock +3

 

Aftermarket shocks with up to two adjustments or revalved shocks +6

 

Any shock with remote resevoirs or more than 2 adjustments +10

 

Why? Easy to police and any non OEM shock under the 2009 +3 rule could be as good or better than the 2009 rule +7 shock. How? 1. Order the budget 2 way adjustable shock body with the top of the line insides. 2. Wait for the $5000 shocks to go on clearance under the price point and keep the proof.

 

Why no +3 for aftermarket non adjustable shock or single adjustable? Because 1. there are trackside revalveable shocks available, 2. There are multiple drivers in TT that develop the shocks for the shock builer and can spec out the exact shock they want. If the setup they choose is not optimal for your car, too bad.

 

I know that a majority of the drivers in TT in my casual observation would get +3 for next year with no changes, but they could go down one tire size or buy the OEM non adjustable stiffer shocks if available. The reason that so many drivers run +3 shocks is because they improve their lap times by multiple seconds for only 3 points! So they really are worth more than 6 points.

 

And FYI, I run the OEM stock shocks.

[JamesL]

Since this has returned to the original topic, here is my opinion:

 

OEM non adjustable optional shock +3

 

Aftermarket shocks with up to two adjustments or revalved shocks +6

 

Any shock with remote resevoirs or more than 2 adjustments +10

 

Why? Easy to police and any non OEM shock under the 2009 +3 rule could be as good or better than the 2009 rule +7 shock. How? 1. Order the budget 2 way adjustable shock body with the top of the line insides. 2. Wait for the $5000 shocks to go on clearance under the price point and keep the proof.

 

Why no +3 for aftermarket non adjustable shock or single adjustable? Because 1. there are trackside revalveable shocks available, 2. There are multiple drivers in TT that develop the shocks for the shock builer and can spec out the exact shock they want. If the setup they choose is not optimal for your car, too bad.

 

I know that a majority of the drivers in TT in my casual observation would get +3 for next year with no changes, but they could go down one tire size or buy the OEM non adjustable stiffer shocks if available. The reason that so many drivers run +3 shocks is because they improve their lap times by multiple seconds for only 3 points! So they really are worth more than 6 points.

 

And FYI, I run the OEM stock shocks.

 

Interesting assessment, but not particularly fair to those cars that do not have "OEM upgraded shocks" available as a factory option. That basically leaves a certain percentage of cars with the choice of using the OEM dampers, or taking +6 points... while the rest of the cars have a nice little option in the middle.

 

I could see something like the following being more fair, as a +3 pt difference can make or break a lot of cars:

 

OEM non adjustable optional shock or single adjustable aftermarket shocks, non-revalved (ie: Koni Sports, Tockicos, etc...) -> +3

 

Aftermarket shocks with up to two adjustments or revalved shocks -> +6

 

Any shock with remote resevoirs or more than 2 adjustments -> +10

 

 

Although, policing shocks to ensure they have not been revalved seems pretty much impossible... And you would have to put a clause on the +3 shocks that prohibits the high end $1200+ single adjustable JRZs/Penskes/etc. Perhaps a list of brands and models that are legal would work... who knows...

[Grant]

The problem with giving adjustable shocks a penalty is that you're effectively helping those people who have the time and money to revalve non-adjustable shocks. Most people buy adjustable shocks so they can dial in their cars without a lengthy process of dismounting them from the car, re-valving and dynoing.

 

Outside of autocross, does anyone know how much time the uber shocks are really worth? I've never messed around with them myself.