TT Shock $$$ ???

[kbrew8991]

this is going to be a tough one to write without either pissing people off - changing things for the guy that has the Koni8610 at +3 to +6 or whatnot - or without introducing rule creep - suddenly having any DA shock at +3 or whatnot.

 

I don't envy Greg in having to write this one at all

[AZELISE]

OEM non adjustable optional shock or single adjustable aftermarket shocks, non-revalved (ie: Koni Sports, Tockicos, etc...) -> +3

 

Aftermarket shocks with up to two adjustments or revalved shocks -> +6

 

Any shock with remote resevoirs or more than 2 adjustments -> +10

 

And you would have to put a clause on the +3 shocks that prohibits the high end $1200+ single adjustable JRZs/Penskes/etc. Perhaps a list of brands and models that are legal would work... who knows...

 

This seems like an improvement on my idea. The problem would be defining revalved. Some budget shocks are available in buyer designated valving. Would these be revalved? A driver that develops the shocks for a manufacturer picks the valving. Everybody get to use these shocks, so would they be revalved for the developer and not everybody else? I am sure your suggestion could be refined to an improvement on the current rule.

 

One difficult option would be to have a list of shocks (make and model) for +3, +6/7 and +10. Like we do for tires. I know this sounds crazy, but the rules already contain a comprehensive list of most of the modern cars made. It would be a major pain to do, but it might help with cost control and parity.

 

Whatever happens, it won't effect me much.

 

I agree with Ken, I do not envy Greg's position.

[Greg G.]

We can't really tech whether a shock is revalved or not, can we--at least not easily at the track at regular events? Those with money to spare could have a different set of shocks specifically built and revalved for each track they go to (what, three plus Mid-Ohio and Miller?) They could have better shocks than just about anyone out there, except those with high end shocks with external reservoirs. One or two way adjustability just ends up being a convenience in the end (as stated in a post a few back).

 

No, this is going to be a problem for everyone that has played by the rules, kept within budget, and has been competing against some who revalved and didn't claim points, and others that are now playing the "What's the real price?" game. We have tried to help our drivers out by providing some type of limit on the cost of lower point shocks. It worked for three years. Hopefully, the recession will improve, and there will be extra cash for shock upgrades in the future for us.

 

And, I rarely envy being Greg.

[mrc24x]

It's tough going over someones car that has aftermarket springs, sway bars, heim joints and all the other go fast parts and then hear them say that they have stock shocks..... I find it hard to imagine someone going to the trouble of doing the other mods and not at least revalving their shocks.

 

But there's no way to enforce it.....

[JamesL]

No, this is going to be a problem for everyone that has played by the rules, kept within budget, and has been competing against some who revalved and didn't claim points

 

It's tough going over someones car that has aftermarket springs, sway bars, heim joints and all the other go fast parts and then hear them say that they have stock shocks..... I find it hard to imagine someone going to the trouble of doing the other mods and not at least revalving their shocks.

 

There are actually people doing the above? ie: heavily modified cars, but claiming the dampers are completely OEM? I suppose it could be true, but it is highly suspect...

 

Regardless, an idea could be making shock and springs a combined points assessment. Id venture to guess 90%+ of those who are modifying one, go ahead and modify the other. This would effectively stop those people who are running 1000lb springs on "OEM" dampers, and not taking points for shocks. And those that truly want to run the OEM shock/spring package could do so without taking any points whatsoever, just as they have been.

 

How many people out there run aftermarket springs on (truly) OEM dampers? Or aftermarket dampers with OEM spring rates? *shrugs shoulders*

[Mrsideways]

Ok the Difference between a Moton and a Tokico/tein/kyb or any of the other junk shocks, is night and day. But the difference between a Moton and a Bilstein (lets say a PSS9) which is in the cheaper range is very minimal. If your not foolish with with your spending you could land a shock that is perfectly within the rules and every bit as good as a high dollar shock.

My vote. 3 points for shocks..... regardless. Cause that's essentially what it is now. Maybe separate the external reservoirs but other then that.....

 

As a BTW note. SCCA for Solo (which is heavily dependent on shocks) for "STOCK" class allows whatever shock you want with the stock springs. And regularly every year people win on the OEM shocks or Koni Yellows in class's full of people on Moton's.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Guest

[kbrew8991]

the car I podiumed with in TTF in 2006 and 2007 took +3 for shocks (Koni yellows) but otherwise stock suspension.

 

I think forcing a "combo pack" (+_ for shocks and +2 for springs rolled into 1 mod line) on everyone doesn't really solve the "shock issue", and just gives everyone less choice in how to modify their car.

[JamesL]

My vote. 3 points for shocks..... regardless. Cause that's essentially what it is now. Maybe separate the external reservoirs but other then that.....

 

I like the idea of leaving it up to the racer to choose the best part for the given component system on the car. Nowhere else in the rulebook does Nasa separate things like this, except tires (and I suppose weight reduction)... and, IMO, tires have a very good reason to be separated given that they are one of the biggest factors in a car's lap times and are a consumable. Dampers, while they can be expensive, have a much longer shelf life than tires, on a race car. And when they "wear out", they can be rebuilt for a fraction of the initial price, they do not simply need to be replaced like tires.

 

the car I podiumed with in TTF in 2006 and 2007 took +3 for shocks (Koni yellows) but otherwise stock suspension.

 

I think forcing a "combo pack" (+_ for shocks and +2 for springs rolled into 1 mod line) on everyone doesn't really solve the "shock issue", and just gives everyone less choice in how to modify their car.

 

True, that is why I was asking though. From what Greg is making it seem like, some segment of racers are going to be pissed off by whatever the new rules are. If racers revalving OEM dampers for higher spring rates and not claiming points is actually a real problem, then this is one way to make it a much less desirable course of action.

[RACER-X]

Another twist to keep costs down and cars more stockish would be to raise the shock point value. For ease of enforcement, take out the dollar amounts.

 

+0 OEM

+4 non adjustable

+8 single adj

+12 double adj

+16 triple adj

 

In addition to the above, if your shock/strut/damper has any of these additional features you must take points for each.....

remote reservior +5

inverted +5

custom valved +5

[BlkGt3]

Another twist to keep costs down and cars more stockish would be to raise the shock point value. For ease of enforcement, take out the dollar amounts.

 

+0 OEM

+4 non adjustable

+8 single adj

+12 double adj

+16 triple adj

 

In addition to the above, if your shock/strut/damper has any of these additional features you must take points for each.....

remote reservior +5

inverted +5

custom valved +5

 

 

I don't think the goal of NASA TT is to keep it more stockish sp. It is to allow the competitor options in building his car. You decide where and what to spend your money on based on desired goals and points per mod.

 

Peter

[JamesL]

Another twist to keep costs down and cars more stockish would be to raise the shock point value. For ease of enforcement, take out the dollar amounts.

 

+0 OEM

+4 non adjustable

+8 single adj

+12 double adj

+16 triple adj

 

In addition to the above, if your shock/strut/damper has any of these additional features you must take points for each.....

remote reservior +5

inverted +5

custom valved +5

 

Yikes. So a 3 way Moton package, valved to customer's specs, is worth 26-31 points?

 

I agree with Peter... Im not sure the goal of the Time Trials rules is to penalize those that modify their cars, but to give them an organized way of choosing which modifications they want to make.

 

This rule would also strongly effect the "tuner"/enthusiast guys who happen to make it out to an event to see what the fuss is all about. And who happen to have a set of garbage-Taiwanese-mass-produced coilovers... all of a sudden his 3 way Stance/Ksport/BC/whatever coilovers are bumping him up a full class(or two), into a group where he is off pace and out of the competition. While it is not Nasa's job to cater to these individuals, this seems like a sure fire way to discourage the guys who have already modified their cars and are looking for a place to compete.

 

Edit: Although, this rule would certainly help in keeping costs down for most.

[Weed Wacker]

that idea would put most cars with entry level suspension 5 points higher as they sit which is rediculous. Not to mention i think inverting shocks is +1 right now so they would be kicked up 4 more points. Thats a full class for just about every TT car.

 

I think the whole ruleset is good, even though AST now sells a set up that takes advantage of the rules. Which is cool i think because it shows interest in TT/PT, and it gives people incentive to run a kinda affordable, badass suspension. Just like how circle track shock companies all now make a revalvable shock for $180 or less a piece because organizers implamented a cost rule. Maybe more companies will take notice and build badass "nasa spec" coilovers which would allow a whole new group to enjoy better quality suspension.

 

Or drop the price point to a lower number still to weed out those companies, or motivate them to make their stuff cheaper still

 

The point is moot about the whole thing though because no matter what, koni yellows are super cheap and you can revalve them to better suit your needs without getting caught.

 

FWIW i run a STR2 legends car with inex shocks and a '83 PTC/TTC rx7 with tokico illuma fronts and tokico blue rears so none of this would really help me, just throwin stuff out there.

[RACER-X]

The point value can be changed to anything. This is just a simpler way to add up your shock points. No dollar amounts to mess with.

[Trevor57]

 

This rule would also strongly effect the "tuner"/enthusiast guys who happen to make it out to an event to see what the fuss is all about. And who happen to have a set of garbage-Taiwanese-mass-produced coilovers... all of a sudden his 3 way Stance/Ksport/BC/whatever coilovers are bumping him up a full class(or two), into a group where he is off pace and out of the competition. While it is not Nasa's job to cater to these individuals, this seems like a sure fire way to discourage the guys who have already modified their cars and are looking for a place to compete.

 

Edit: Although, this rule would certainly help in keeping costs down for most.

 

 

Casual drivers are in HPDE, not TT.

[jason]

trying to class an already modified car rarely ends up easy/cheap/competitive. Doesn't matter if it's TT, W2W, or even autocross.

[JamesL]

 

This rule would also strongly effect the "tuner"/enthusiast guys who happen to make it out to an event to see what the fuss is all about. And who happen to have a set of garbage-Taiwanese-mass-produced coilovers... all of a sudden his 3 way Stance/Ksport/BC/whatever coilovers are bumping him up a full class(or two), into a group where he is off pace and out of the competition. While it is not Nasa's job to cater to these individuals, this seems like a sure fire way to discourage the guys who have already modified their cars and are looking for a place to compete.

 

Edit: Although, this rule would certainly help in keeping costs down for most.

 

 

Casual drivers are in HPDE, not TT.

 

Who said anything about casual drivers?

[dans2k]

It's tough going over someones car that has aftermarket springs, sway bars, heim joints and all the other go fast parts and then hear them say that they have stock shocks..... I find it hard to imagine someone going to the trouble of doing the other mods and not at least revalving their shocks.

 

But there's no way to enforce it.....

 

I hope you don't just assume people with springs aren't running stock shocks because some of us realy are!

[mrc24x]

It's tough going over someones car that has aftermarket springs, sway bars, heim joints and all the other go fast parts and then hear them say that they have stock shocks..... I find it hard to imagine someone going to the trouble of doing the other mods and not at least revalving their shocks.

 

But there's no way to enforce it.....

 

I hope you don't just assume people with springs aren't running stock shocks because some of us realy are!

 

 

I'm sure there are plenty of guys running stock shocks. It's just a rule that isn't easy to prove either way. At least not in the real world. (at a club weekend)

 

I just don't care for rules that are hard/impossible to enforce.

[BlkGt3]

Or in my case Moton 3 ways and stock springs and sways.

 

Peter

[krisa9977]

The best part of Time Trial is that you are able to use your daily driver car for competition in Time Trial. That makes Time Trial very affordable and competitive at the same time. The only way to be competitive in TT is to have good racing suspension. I don't like that the rules allow to put racing suspension that gona turn a daily driver car into a race car that you can use only for a track.

[eclricochet]

The best part of Time Trial is that you are able to use your daily driver car for competition in Time Trial. That makes Time Trial very affordable and competitive at the same time. The only way to be competitive in TT is to have good racing suspension. I don't like that the rules allow to put racing suspension that gona turn a daily driver car into a race car that you can use only for a track.

If you are not using 19 points in your current class then you can't complain about not being competitive. I am in TTE and using all my available points. If I take one more point I will go to TTD. Once I build my engine/gear box my car will be able to run 100% competitive times and it will come down to my driving.

 

If you look at the SCCA Solo rulebook you won't run competitive times without doing everything you are allowed to do. Modification is part of the process....

 

--Doug

[Joshua]

I don't like that the rules allow to put racing suspension that gona turn a daily driver car into a race car that you can use only for a track.

Hey Denis, I drive my Miata to work once or twice a week on 560/390lb springs and no A/C, and I've even driven it to events that aren't too far away, so it can be done. Hope to see you at PBIR.

 

Doug, one of these years, I've got to get back up to VIR with my car and have some fun with the Mid-Atlantic TT group.

[krisa9977]

The best part of Time Trial is that you are able to use your daily driver car for competition in Time Trial. That makes Time Trial very affordable and competitive at the same time. The only way to be competitive in TT is to have good racing suspension. I don't like that the rules allow to put racing suspension that gona turn a daily driver car into a race car that you can use only for a track.

If you are not using 19 points in your current class then you can't complain about not being competitive. I am in TTE and using all my available points. If I take one more point I will go to TTD. Once I build my engine/gear box my car will be able to run 100% competitive times and it will come down to my driving.

 

 

--Doug

 

You can take 5 points for coilovers that you can use for street driving or same 5 points for much move competitive setup with a coilovers that have race valving. Rules allow that right now. There are not that many people right now who can take advantage of these rules, but there will be in a future.

 

 

If you look at the SCCA Solo rulebook you won't run competitive times without doing everything you are allowed to do. Modification is part of the process....

 

--Doug

 

That is exactly why I don't want to run SCCA because to run competitive times I would need to have dedicated track car

 

I don't like that the rules allow to put racing suspension that gona turn a daily driver car into a race car that you can use only for a track.

Hey Denis, I drive my Miata to work once or twice a week on 560/390lb springs and no A/C, and I've even driven it to events that aren't too far away, so it can be done. Hope to see you at PBIR.

 

 

Are you sure about 560/390lb ? I would use 390/560lb.

[32EVOIX]

Hey Dennis,

 

You coming to PBIR? You have driven my car on the street with those Tein’s and you know I drive it every day, it’s not bad? A trip longer than 2-3 hours gets tough on the back but for every day it is fine. But I do agree that if I upgrade the suspension it would probably give me 1 to 2 seconds, but would make the car un-drivable on the street. I do agree with you and that is how I perceived TT that it is fun to compete with you daily driver, however I was slammed on that comment and told that it is for dedicated cars. But I must say it has been fun competing against dedicated cars and kicking their A$$ with our daily driver, would you not agree?

[Mrsideways]

Uh.... That's a dumb argument. I don't think there is a race class in the world where you can leave some on the table from the rule book and be competitive.