sn-95 vs s-197

[doc stang]

o.k.

i read marty's post about wanting to build new, and TOTALLY understand everyone's penchant for buying something already built, and 'really-well sorted-out'.

 

i have been on track since last may, with about 22 some-odd track days under my belt,

currently a DE3, and i firmly agree/believe that the driver modification is most important.

i am investing heavily on that.

 

this feb. i bought a CMC-1 legal car, and have been DE'ing it this year, (DE'd in my 08 bullitt LAST year)

i anticipate starting TT this weekend, and hope to be ready to take comp school in november.

 

i am thinking strongly about aiming at AI, instead of CMC, and have a few questions:

basically have envisioned myself in an s-197 on the track, from the git-go, (some dreams die hard)

 

thinking of going either:

route 1) waiting and buying a 'really-well sorted-out' SN-95 for pennies on the dollar

(investing on someone else's blood sweat and tears).

vs.

route 2) slowly modding my 5.0 cobra-motor'd 1995 GT (cmc-1 legal, currently)

vs.

route 3) building my own s-197, and partially ramping up the current car, to keep cutting my teeth.

 

QUESTION ONE:

which trumps : SN-95's weight advantage?

or s-197's frame rigidity advantage?

 

QUESTION TWO:

if i go (stay) sn-95 . . .

how importnat is the 1" setback of the motor???

lets say it otherwise has the 'right' motor tranny, and SLA/coilover set up.

all other things being equal, how big a deal is it - to NOT scoot the engine back 1"?

how much of a nightmare would that be (to do it)??

 

QUESTION THREE: (please ad lib on my potential game plans)

if i went route 1)

who knows when that would happen, financially, and spousally permitting

 

if i went route 2)

i would (in some yet-to-be-determined) order, do the four following stages

---stage a) do a K-member/coil-over/SLA front end set up,

---stage b) AFR heads, a cam, headers, intake, and a tune, and that should get me close to where i need to be

------------( i know the stock 5.0 cobra block probably won't live too long, but this would be a stop gap maneuver till i can rationalize a new sportsman 347ci short block, and move the nice heads from the dead block over)

---stage c) rip out the autopower jungle gym of a roll cage, and have something nice put in in its stead.

---stage d) carbon fiber

***advantages, i can still drive and learn, and even race, in between stages, and it is a slow, incremental investment, financially, plus i can grow as the car grows, (rather than just plopping down into a comparative monster of a car, from what i have been used to).

 

if i went route 3) i would keep on DEing and TTing and even CMC 1 with the CMC car as is, while building a, yet to be purchased, s-197.

--CMC1 would probably frustrate me as there is a small CMC contingent here in the SE, (most of which seems to be CMC-2) and i would envision essentially me doing time trials, off the back of the THUNDER pack, until i started getting lapped.

(no offense intended to anyone, and my observation may be incorrect out of newbieness)

--so if i went route 3) i would still want to do heads, and a cam etc, to be able to keep up somewhat in AI,

(or would I be able to keep up, with the stockish CMC front end?

 

looking for all wisdom and direction that can be offered.

if you are at ROAD ATLANTA this weekend,

I'd love to visit in person.

 

HPDE-3 white CMC #18 mustang GT

over in the DE paddock.

 

if you're amenable to me bending your ear, I'll gladly come to your paddock to rap.

thanks,

Jesse Felder

[gbrown8439]

I think before I could answer your questions I would want to know your budget.

Can you really afford to build a new S197? It's sad but most of the time your budget will make the decision for you.

 

No matter what I vote for moving up to AI.

[IGZOSTD]

Jesse,

I started out with a new out of the box 06 Stang , broke it in on the street ( less than 1000 mi , 4 oil changes )with every intention of racing my 66 ( my dads race car ) and the 06 just started evolving as the 66 went back together.

Then the 66 value went way up ( an org. 4:11, 4 speed F/B ) so I concentrated on the new car . Not real cost effective , how many people own a Black Hole . Just bought a new s197 sla setup and it needs lots of modifications to bring it to a geometry sound package . Its been frustrating but you have to be able to deal with this sort of thing and move forward. Twenty five years of racing bikes prepared me pretty good for this. I suggest you go ahead with the sn95 , these cars are well sorted and running at the top of the heap right now.

[Ed M.]

Jesse,

 

I'd be more than happy to talk in length with you this weekend at RA (I think we've spoken briefly before...). Also, since this is round 5 of the AIECC, the entrant list for AI/AIX/CMC/MC is in the 25-30 car count (16 in AI alone!!) so there will be plenty of racers there to talk to from all walks of the sport. We've got our own paddock spot so check the map and head on over (on the Pro paddack side - inside the track, on the hill)!

 

See ya at RA!

Ed

[doc stang]

I think before I could answer your questions I would want to know your budget.

Can you really afford to build a new S197? It's sad but most of the time your budget will make the decision for you.

 

i have more money than time, and current know-how < impatience

it would be next spring before i could drop 20-30 k to BUY a race-ready top-performing sn-95.

 

if i do either build (sn-95 or s-197) gradually, eeking in 4-5k on a quarterly basis is a doable feat without drawing too much spousal heat.

 

if i went route TWO - I'd be ready for an initial stage in october

either heads/cam/tune/intake, OR front end suspension as described above.

 

WHICH WOULD Y'ALL RECOMMEND FIRST??????

[gbrown8439]

I vote for building/buying the car you like better.

 

Both chassis can be competitive.

Parts for them cost about the same.

An S197 can be built to run at or under 3000# so I don't really buy the weight advantage argument.

 

It will almost always be cheaper to buy an already built car but I don't think it's as much fun.

When building a car from scratch you get to make all of the decisions on how it is built which is a big plus in my book.

 

You can race your CMC car while you build your AI car and if you buy your wife a big ring she might not notice all of the money you are spending.

[Ed M.]

It will almost always be cheaper to buy an already built car but I don't think it's as much fun.

When building a car from scratch you get to make all of the decisions on how it is built which is a big plus in my book.

That's funny you say that. After building my first and current car, I swore I'd never do it again and I'd buy the next one. I just recently started building my next one...aaaarrrrggghhh. Glutton for punishment I guess, but your right, the rewards are so much more when you create it...

 

Ed

[stevepoe]

QUESTION ONE:

which trumps : SN-95's weight advantage?

or s-197's frame rigidity advantage?

 

Jesse,

why not build a s197 with weight savings? Personally I don't think it matters at this stage of Grassroots racing. It's a matter of what you like.Most guys aren't good enough to make one better then the other. You will notice that most people racing don't have a clue of taking full advantge of a cars potential. do you see the majority of guys taking tire temps properly and making changes to shock, tire , sway bars and balance of the car? hell, I hardly see guys checking tire pressures and checking alingnment and toe. on top of that I would guess 50% of AI cars have never been on a set of scales except for the ones at the tracks after racing.

 

I guess the question you ask is very open . My opinion is newer is better. things will be comming out for the newer platforms, engines make better performance on newer cars right out of the box and aftermarkets tend to follow the new rather then the old. The future is the new but old works very well if done properly.

 

it's a matter of prefrence.

 

QUESTION TWO:

if i go (stay) sn-95 . . .

how importnat is the 1" setback of the motor???

lets say it otherwise has the 'right' motor tranny, and SLA/coilover set up.

all other things being equal, how big a deal is it - to NOT scoot the engine back 1"?

how much of a nightmare would that be (to do it)??

 

in my opinion it's not that big a deal at this stage of the game.

 

Yes,setting the motor back will help balance but again see answer to question 1. Buy yourself a good set of scales and learn how to set the car up with them if you plan on getting that envolved in having the "trick" setup.

 

 

engine set back ? swap your motor mounts around.wa lah it's back if you want it down and back further do a motor plate and junk your factory engine location mounts. the sky is the limit .

 

QUESTION THREE:

see answer 1 kidding

 

all in all ,it sounds like if you run you want to run up front . It also sounds like money is not the problem.

 

 

 

I would sell your hpde car or whatever it is and build your s197 on a need be basses. It won't take much at this point of american iron racing to be able to put that s197 platform up in the front part of the pack if you have some driving talent. it also will cost a fraction of the cost if you build your sn95 into the beast of a car your talking about.

 

 

other option sell all your stuff contact somebody that knows the car you want. mustangs .

 

high end buy a s197 turn key

 

like this one

 

http://www.racingjunk.com/category/1077/NASA_American_Iron/post/1581523/2006-Ford-Mustang-Griggs-RT-pkg.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

 

contact Dean Martin at Rehagen Racing. follow koni much ? These guys have the s197 chassis figured out . he has a club racer turn key car that fits nicley in to american iron. http://www.rehagenracing.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

also ford dropped the pricing on 09 miller cup cars they are in the high 50 low 60 range.

 

 

build your own. like what I did

 

I had modulardepot do some work on my car. http://www.modulardepot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; they have raced in Koni before and They are great with the 4.6 engine. I think they have a ai car in the shop now?

 

I choose to build my car vs trying to find a turn key. something about the apprecaition of something by doing it yourself and I'm a cheap ass. hey don't blame me blame my father I was raised that way

 

also don't believe the hype about the cost of building your own car. It's a hobby to me so I don't calculate my labor. If your a cheap ass you can build a car very reasonable

 

 

These are my opinions take it for what they are worth " not much"

[doc stang]

thanks for all the replies so far,

please keep them coming!!

 

this is exactly the stuff / food-for-thought i am looking for.

i really appreciate the time and thought put into some of these reponses

 

an s-197 is what i really 'WANT' to be in,

jesse

[ST#97]

D. Build a Challenger!

 

Personally, SN99. Easy track width with no fender issues. Frame rigidity? Isn't that what a cage is for? Weight...? Less equals $$$$$.

 

Too many options and too many questions to answer.

 

Put an E-cam and shorties on the CMC car and run CMC-2. There is your answer!

[JKnight]

Personally, SN99. Easy track width with no fender issues. Frame rigidity? Isn't that what a cage is for? Weight...? Less equals $$$$$.

 

I'm not familiar with the sn99. Care to elaborate?

 

Jason

[ST#97]

Personally, SN99. Easy track width with no fender issues. Frame rigidity? Isn't that what a cage is for? Weight...? Less equals $$$$$.

 

I'm not familiar with the sn99. Care to elaborate?

 

Jason

 

 

99 to 2004 Mustang. a lot different than an SN95 body wise, but all the same suspension wise.

[robbodleimages]

From the perspective of an inexperienced driver, I would suggest that you go with a nicely sorted out inexpensive race car. I say this for two main reasons. If the car is a known quantity and reliable, you can work on your driving without having to worry about whether the ill handling car is the car or your driving. You can concentrate on driving more often that trouble shooting. Lastly you can make all your rookie mistakes on that car rather than a hot new piece you put your heart and soul into.

 

Then when you have some experience you can build or buy that rocket ship S197 car and be able to use it properly.

[robbodleimages]

Personally, SN99. Easy track width with no fender issues. Frame rigidity? Isn't that what a cage is for? Weight...? Less equals $$$$$.

 

I'm not familiar with the sn99. Care to elaborate?

 

Jason

 

 

99 to 2004 Mustang. a lot different than an SN95 body wise, but all the same suspension wise.

 

I could be wrong, but I think the 99-04 body is an SN95 as well. The designation is for the chassis, not the body. The 2010 Mustang as also an S197.

[kbrew8991]

99 to 2004 Mustang. a lot different than an SN95 body wise, but all the same suspension wise.

 

I could be wrong, but I think the 99-04 body is an SN95 as well. The designation is for the chassis, not the body. The 2010 Mustang as also an S197.

 

while not an official name within Ford many enthusiasts use it as shorthand since there were some subtle changes that may matter depending on what you're doing

 

- KB, former Fox owner

[mcmmotorsports]

Yes, the 99-04 were still SN-95's (former '04 SN-95 owner)

 

If you are like me, build what you really want to be in. Simply because if you build a SN-95 when you really want to be running a S-197, you will be regretting your decision day in and day out and will not be happy till you race the S-197. Whatever the obstacles are, find ways around them to put yourself in the car you want to be in.

Trust me on this one. For years I wanted the "BIG" Kawasaki motorcycle but always bought what I could afford or what I thought was the better choice. Within 3 months I was second guessing my choice and looking for ways out. Last year, I was in the market for another motorcycle and contemplated an R6 or R1 but realized that I would not be happy unless I got my ZX14. 16 months of ownership later and I have not even thought ONCE about owning any other motorcycle.

 

Oh and btw Mr. McGuire, what is this new car you speak of?

[Holster Maker]

The SN95 99-04's are call the "New Edge" in the Mustang world. However, they should have been the SN99, several changes more than the body.

[ST#97]

 

while not an official name within Ford many enthusiasts use it as shorthand since there were some subtle changes that may matter depending on what you're doing

 

- KB, former Fox owner

Yeah, it's a "trade name" used for these cars as there are several changes with regards to chassis stiffness and a lot more steel in the cars.

 

Bob gives great advice about a "training" car, but in these times it's difficult to sell that car and move up to your dream car.

 

I still say be a rogue and build a challenger!

[kbrew8991]

with tough times its good to be a buyer if you ask me - in a year or two I'm sure the market will be up

 

my $0.02

- buy a "cut your teeth" racecar now, while they're even cheaper than normal

- cut your teeth for a year or two of racing racing

- sell to fund the dream racecar build

[T&A Racing]

Well,

 

Since lots of folks are chiming in, my expirence is I bought a Fox body already built race car. Raced for the last two years, still sorting out the car as well as learning to give my crew chief good feedback on how the car is working. Lots of varibles. I will be looking for a S197 well built proven car to take some of the varibles out of the overall equation. Would love to have somthing proven to be fast on the tracks I run at in the midwest area.

 

So the cut your teeth car works better if either it is very proven and sorted out, or you and your team have the skills to sort it out. New driver, with a car that needs sorting is a tough road in my opinion.

[stevepoe]

if your serious this is a no brain decission.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2007-Ford-Racing-Mustang-Challenge-race-car-SCCA-NASA_W0QQitemZ160355299351QQcmdZViewItemQQptZRace_Cars_Not_Street_Legal_?hash=item2555ebb017&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245

 

A heck of a deal considering.

[robbodleimages]

Have not those cars been raced A LOT?

[stevepoe]

Have not those cars been raced A LOT?

probably , bet they have excellent maintenance.

 

no different then a bondurant car

[robbodleimages]

Thats my point. The 1999 Cobras and 2001 GT's sold by Bondurant two years ago were around $10k. $35k for a used Miller Challenge cars is only marginally less expensive than a used FR500S which would have been raced far less than the Miller car.

 

If the Miller car were in the $25k range, I would feel differently.

[stevepoe]

Thats my point. The 1999 Cobras and 2001 GT's sold by Bondurant two years ago were around $10k. $35k for a used Miller Challenge cars is only marginally less expensive than a used FR500S which would have been raced far less than the Miller car.

 

you said it 99 cobras and 01 gt cars. . hardly any real modifications on those cars as well . those cars are outdated to say the least. and a old body style. bolt in junk cages etc etc...

 

I don't see many used fr500s cars for sale. who is selling them, and for how much ?

 

to me 35k seems very fair for what you are getting. doubt you could build that car for that.