richard migliori Posted December 15, 2009 Author Share Posted December 15, 2009 If there was a national for endurance on the east I would not go (from calif) unless it was with the whole group. I plan on going to mid ohio for endurance racing this year also. You are missing the point.... if it is a national event. members will come from all corners. I have been to VIR twice for nats and didn't bother me. You will travel for a national event, why? because it is a national event where the best of the best come to play. It can be scheduled and it will draw cars that normally don't go to a national event. I don't bring my car to the nats because it is not good enough to compete in SU, but when it comes to endurances, I will definatly kick but! Bottom dollar increase. RM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I dont think I am missing the point at all. I am sorry that you feel that I am. If you can get the powers that be to add 6 hours of race time plus practice and qualifying to the already crowded Nationals schedule, I am with you. What I have learned as a series director about how these events work tells me that it can't happen that way. In order to fit our race NASA will have to either add our cars to existing groups for practice or cut existing groups track time in order create track time for us. In this economy that won't fly. Next the overtime required to pay ambulance and tow truck crews and medics as well as overtime track time, is a lot more expensive than most people thinks. Then there are our volunteer course workers that will be asked to work a day of 8a to 11pm. lastly you are scheduling the race so that it is run almost entirely at night. Thats an entirely different issue as most of our teams/drivers have little night racing experience. We run 8 or 9 enduros in NASA SE without a single lap after dark. I offer the suggestion of a seperate event because there is a 90% chance that the idea of adding a 6 hour race to the Nationals schedule will be rejected. If it is, would you rather do a seperate event or pass altogether? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard migliori Posted December 15, 2009 Author Share Posted December 15, 2009 Thanks Rob, You are shedding some light in the right direction. I am glad that you thought of the extra expense of workers. I did take note of that earlier, but spent little time on it so far. It was a question that came up today as it would take an extra crew of workers that did not work the day of the race. I only suggested the time frame. It wouldn't matter if it ran at night or not, I was suggesting that it be a possibility. (good insight on your part) as East coasters have never or little experience at night racing. Being a director at another place and familier with your ways of doing things, I encourage all your input. Just a thought, add an extra day at the front of the schedule and practice in AM, Qualify at 11:00 Run 12:00 to 6:30 PM. Previously posted about double duty with a sprint prepared car? This now gives the opportunity to "supersize into another group, thus increasing revenue and giving each team to have adequate time to prepare for sprint nats. So, why couldn't they add another day at the beginning to run an endurance. No tired personnel and no overtime on the safety crew. How about something in that direction? Thanks, Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 the only way for it to work at the nationals is either add a day or try to squeeze in a shorter race, 3 hours. at that point, NASA would have to feel like the enduro would attract enough participation to at minimum cover the costs for one full day. think about what you are asking for there. Miller is expensive. it would cost $500 for an entry fee and you would need maybe 60 cars. Understand that I am guessing on specifics. If you are going to run the race at the end of the schedule, you will have to deal with the sprint racers adding a weekday to their event and having to take an extra day of vacation time and losing a weekend day of competition. At the same time, if you are relying on sprint racers to make your entry numbers, you will lose those that crash or break in their sprint races. If you run the enduro on the first added early week day, you will have the problem of filling a field on for a Wednesday race and filling it with race cars that are there for that race only. Run before the championship sprint races, very few sprint racers will risk their cars in a 6 hour race before their primary event. Again, this is why it might be best to do this event as a stand alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbuzz Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Probably best to let the National directors figure it out. If they think it can happen and they can make money on it it will happen. Doesn't really matter what we think. If it is viable financially then it is possible. We just need to let NASA National know we are interested and see what happens. Can you hear us Jerry, Ryan and John? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard migliori Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 This is what I am looking at as mentioned before.... First and foremost: It is a National event and a pennicle of one's racing endeavors. Second: people that go to a national event plan way in advance as vacation time or time off. (extra days and missing work is not an excuse. I plan for the 25 last week). However, the enduro part of the Nationals will attract members that would not go, because they don't have a car good enough to win a national level sprint (fact) Why would one blow a ton of money, drive half way across the US to finish last? (not by accident). If an endurance is offered, it draws those guys that normally would stay home. I would wager that an organization such as NASA could add a day on the schedule and negotiate a discount fee for one extra day. I made some phone calls today and if there was a nat endurance posted, I have committed 10 ES cars ( more than SU had in last national). Remember, there is only about 6 of us kicking this around and not the 10,000 members that could be potential enduro goers at a national event. I think there are more closet enduro people out there than you think. RM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbuzz Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I am on board with you Richard. Rob has his own idea of what he thinks it should be just as we do. Neither is right or wrong it just is what it is. I have no problem with racing my sprint car in an Enduro as long as it is after all the sprint races. The enduro cars can practice with their sprint classes and then have a separate qualifier and race. I know Shawn Sampson would be interested as well since he is at the Nationals and has an Enduro car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 if it follows the enduro ruleset to the letter I'd be interested as well in an enduro during Nationals week - my car would do well in E3 and/or E2 (if E3 doesn't make the required number). I guess I'm a little naieve/cocky, but I'd run a 6hr before the Championship sprints so long as I had a day of non-competition, non-qualifying, ie a day that didn't matter to look over brakes, etc, and make any necessary changes. I ran about 200-250mi this past year before I even turned a lap that mattered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I am on board with you Richard. Rob has his own idea of what he thinks it should be just as we do. Neither is right or wrong it just is what it is. I have no problem with racing my sprint car in an Enduro as long as it is after all the sprint races. The enduro cars can practice with their sprint classes and then have a separate qualifier and race. I know Shawn Sampson would be interested as well since he is at the Nationals and has an Enduro car. I think to be more correct I have my own idea of how it can be done. I am less interested in making it perfect than I am about making it and getting it started. buzz says it has to be after the sprints. thats fine, but if he is serious about the sprint race and the car gets torn up, he is out of the enduro. Its just something that has to be factored in. I also have pointed out that adding an enduro particularly one that takes up a full day of track time, is very unlikely to be added to the Nationals. If it can't be added to the Nationals, do we still want a national championship race? Thats where I am coming from. NASA SE is deciding right now what to do with their big enduro. I asked for commitments here for a championship race at RA and have gotten no replies. My take is that it is that it has to be at the Nationals and that it can't happen at the Nationals. So, this is just an exercise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard migliori Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 Ken, that good at having a non day in between for nut and bolting. That is what I am after also. It was good that you mentioned it. Rob. If you let the directors do it or present it, it will NEVER happen, that is why I am trying to get this thing presented. Again about cost of adding a day at the beginning, chances are that day would be vacant on the track schedule and they would be excited to fill it! Since NASA is already there, it's a no brainer. Thanks you guys for chiming in..it's a big help in the right direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I want to see it happen however it has to happen - if its Road Atl in June or Dec I'll be there, if its part of Nationals week I'll be there too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 If I am going to make the long haul to the Nationals, I only want to do it once. I wouldn't want to make a tow to RA in June then MMP in September. I would rather have both events in one place on one weekend. It would be far easier to take an extra day or two off for one event than another week plus to run the enduro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbuzz Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 May want to post a link on the Enduro site chat board just to be sure all are seeing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard migliori Posted December 17, 2009 Author Share Posted December 17, 2009 Wolf, that is my thoughts too! One trip and it's done! Rob, I did some numbers since I have an inside spread sheet on track rentals and general expenses for a program of this nature. (safety crew, workers, track rental, paid personnel, etc.). Realistically, for a "NATIONAL" event such as this, you WILL attract outside cars (amateur) and you won't get the pro guys. They are out in their own series, unlike the draw of the 25. My math tells me at 40 cars, you break even. Throw in a super size offering, the profit increases and as a bonus, guys that come out for the endurance only could check out the sprint line up and my stick around for extra racing $$$. Run it at the beginning of the program and that allows those that double up, time to prepare their cars. 1.5 hour.......waste of time and money 3.0 hour...... not a real test of national level competition 4.0 hour...... Mandatory 2 driver participation, but not national level 5.0 hour......Getting warmer 6.0 hour...... long enough where planning and luck kicks in 7.0 hour...... takes away all prepared advantages of car construction Keep the ideas coming! Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I don't see it happening... The reason is time. As it stand getting all run groups track time was hard enough at Miller this year. It is one reason the format changed from last year. There just is not time in the Nationals schedule to have another muliti hour race. Maybe it could work if you add a day to the event, but that is about it. And then the enduro needs to be after the sprint races. The guys who run sprints will not do an enduro if the are looking at sprint race since wearing down the car before the "main event" is just not realistic. Of course after the sprint it can be a bonus. Still an enduro long enough to need 2 drivers means planning how to share the car etc. So from a logistical standpoint I don't see it happening. I do take issue with a coupe points. Arizona' enduro... We just ran a 3 hour enduro. It is our only enduro and we have been running an enduro over thanksgiving for 20+ years in Az. Long before we had a NASA region. This enduro has always ranged from 90 mintues to 3 hours. Why so short? Well most of the guys that run it do it as change up from teh normal 30 minute spring race format. It is the last event of the year and is long enough to need to think about perserving the car, but also not get very complex either. We had 28 starters this year which is in the range we have always had. Given we run it on a 1.5 mile track we can't take large fields anyway. You should go to nationals even if you "can't win". I went this year in 944 spec with the hopes of only running in the lead pack. I did better than expected, but even if I was last I still would have had fun. Nationals is not just about winning it, but about running against more competition than you normally do and seeing how you stack up. So I suggest going even if you know you can't win. It is still an enviroment you can't miss. Charlie... Adding lights to a 944 is not very hard. The last 2 years I have run a night race here Phoenix. In 2008 I reinstalled my stock lights in the fixed position and ran those. This year I just swapped a bumper with lights attached. The bumper swap takes me 15 minutes and I have 4 driving lights. So adding lights can be very easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 there was plenty of track time on Tues & Wed leading up to things - I didn't even run all the Wed sessions and still did close to 250 miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 there was plenty of track time on Tues & Wed leading up to things - I didn't even run all the Wed sessions and still did close to 250 miles I used all day Wedensday to run different set-ups on my 944. It was very busy for me and very valuable to have that practice time. I did not consider their being much set-up time on thrusday and friday since only 2 session those days did not factor into the final results. If I went the wrong way on set-up in qualfying session I might have bad spot for the spring qualifier and that would impact my overall chances. Heck on thursday the 944 spec fast qualfier forgot to go to impound post session. So despite running the fastest lap of any of the 34 944's there he start the sprint race at the back. That mean mid pack thrusday race finish instead either a win or top 5. So despite his good run on Friday he will still no better than upper mid pack for the championship race. Point is flub up qualfying session or race on thrusday or friday and it can impact the overall. So those session are for fine tuning not major set-up work. That is what wednesday is for. As for tuesday... I was traveling up to Miller that day and was not able to run the Miller sponsor test day. Then again I did not need to since I planned on wedensday for testing. I would not be happy giving up testing time to run a long enduro on wedensday. I need the multiple sessions with time in between to make chassis adjustments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard migliori Posted December 18, 2009 Author Share Posted December 18, 2009 94, thanks for your interest.. Although you don't think it would happen, you wrote the right answer, and that's add another day in front of the normal schedule. It is as easy as that! It satisfies all needs for those that think they would run both endurance and sprints. I have been thinking all day about why you would need all that track time to dial a spec car in? I set up my car at the shop and the only thing I change at the track is tire pressure and brake bias. After each session I may chose to run, I check all toe ins or outs. ( 31 races, 28 podiums), Am I missing something here?. Back to the subject at hand; I think you will find there will be less sprinters than you think entering the endurance race. I would have to say that having a national endurance run of significant time, will attract 70 cars, thus making a good profit and stand alone on its own day. If the 25 can attract 70 entrants and not be a national event by national's standards, (cost) then the next best thing NASA would offer in endurance racing (hands down) is a national endurance. It can ver easily be coordinated. RM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 ... I have been thinking all day about why you would need all that track time to dial a spec car in? I set up my car at the shop and the only thing I change at the track is tire pressure and brake bias. After each session I may chose to run, I check all toe ins or outs. ( 31 races, 28 podiums), Am I missing something here?...RM Well hard to say. If you are happy with your results and effort that is great. For me it was my second trip to Miller this year so I knew the track, but spent 2008 just driving it. For all of 2009 I have started to tweak set-up in search of that last bit of speed. I had 5 sessions on Wedensday and here was my plan Session 1) Track refamiliairization - I had hoped to run some baseline lap times, but there was just too much slow traffic from other guy's first laps to run good baseline times. Really I got zero set-up work done. I took tire temps and pressures post session and recored for later analysis. - Adjusted tire pressures to hot optimal. Session 2) Proper baseline.. I finally got enough clear track to push it harder all over and ran some ok times. I also considerd where I might be losing time. Again took tire temps and pressures post session. I looked at these and felt that on this track I was getting the inside shoulders a bit too hot up front. So after some discussions with my Toyo dealer I made a small camber adjustment. Sessions 3)First test of adjusted camber results were good with a better feel on track, but this also introduced some understeer - Again took tire temps and pressures. Decided to make a sway bar adjustment Session 4) Car is really good now with feels like more overall grip and good balance. However based on tire temps and feel again I made another camber adjustment. At this point it would not hurt as I could always go back. The thing I had learned during the season is that you never know how much better the car can be unless you try. If you know exactly what you did you can back it out if it does not work. Session 5) Car is better in someways, but balance is off again. Still the lap times have been improving and I can tell the car is getting faster. Miller's long fast corners (for a 944) require good mid corner grip and not too much instability at turn in. So by the end of the first day the car was faster by at least 1 to 1.5 seconds from these minor tweaks. Thursday morning I adjusted the sway bar on more time and got my balance where I wanted it. Of course by then play time was over from there i was just working slight tweaks to line and technique. I also had learn how much each tire would increase in pressure during a run. So I could set cold pressure different in all 4 corners and then have them come in right where I wanted within 1 psi hot. As for how this worked out for me... Well by Saturday morning when I had saved my best tires for the big show I ran the morning practice and ran the fastest lap of any 944 spec car over the entire weekend. All that testing allowed me to eek out a 0.5 second gap over the class in that session. It also gave me enough speed to lead 8 of 16 laps in the championship race. Unfortunalty the competition was stiff among the other 33 cars so I only managed 4th by race end, but just 2.5 seconds out of first. The test day for me was key to tuning the car for this track. How important that was I saw in my next race back home where the car was just not right. So I undid all the camber/sway bar adjustments I had done and the car was back it is normal self. No back on topic.... I still think the best chance for a bigger field at Nationals enduro would be to have it after the sprint races. There will be drivers who will want to do both. In a hotly contested class you need your car 100% for a sprint race and few would want to risk it for 3-6 hours just days before a sprint event. However after the sprint event it is more likely. Still the biggest issue is that it takes ALOT of work and planning to hold the Championships. Sprint races themselves are easy to organize so all that happens at National is to be more focused on the details for these rather normal races. Enduro's require a much greater logistial support to just run the event and if it is for "all the marbles" it needs to be run to a very high standard. That takes alot of work and frankly may be asking too much of the NASA staff to add this on top of everything else. Only they know for sure on what kind impact this may have. Right now there is still a big carrot for enduro's just like sprint races. For sprint races Nationals is the big show. For enduro it is the 25 hour. Both are marquee events and bring the best drivers, cars and prep. Now true a 25 hour is much harder to run than a 4-6 hour race, but any 25 hour class winner is in many ways an enduro champion. Then again I don't really run many enduro's so maybe I just have it all wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 (edited) First things first. Will the powers that be make room in the nationals schedule for an enduro? If they will make time, how much time. Those two questions have to be answered before anything else can be addressed. After they answer that, then, Richard, you can bring their answer back before us and we can go from there. Ron: Recognize two things that are true. Most people that would run a championship enduro would never have the resources to race a 25 hour race. None of the people that run our NASA SE enduro series run the 25. Only a handful of them can afford to run an 8 hour race. Second most people in the east will never haul to Thunderhill. This is just my opinion, but those many that race 3 hours races and those that run the 13 hour and 25 hour races each year are in a completely different catagory. If the 25 is the national champion, then we should stop now. Most NASA enduros are three hours long. That is why I suggest that be the distance for a national championship race. If you made the national championship sprint races a hour or more in lenth, I dont think it would reflect a national champion correctly Edited December 18, 2009 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 as part of an email exchange I had with Jerry yesterday I told him that I'd go wherever there was an enduro that was sanctioned as a National Championship. The idea will catch I bet, just a matter of the details now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I think that is the best attitude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard migliori Posted December 18, 2009 Author Share Posted December 18, 2009 Joe, you can't compare the 25, nationals and a national endurance race and call the 25 nasa's national event because it's not. The 25 is a showcase event that stands on its own not to be confused with anything else. You are right that it takes very special planning and strategy and the cost would be prohibited to endurance goers that would do a national race. It the 25 was held on the east coast, as great as this race is, I could probably only afford to go once every 3 years. A lesser timed national race, I would go to because the reduction of cost and planning. These as mentioned previously are 2 different animals, period and should not be mentioned in the same sentence. Est coasters don't so the 25 because of the travel cost and the overall cost, but a national event is cost effective in comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard migliori Posted December 19, 2009 Author Share Posted December 19, 2009 What do you guys think of this schedule that could be presented for the event: 8:00 - 8:40 Practice 8:40 - 9:00 Qualifying 9:15 - 9:40 Drivers meeting 9:45 - 9:55 Staging 10:00 - 5:00 Race ( 7 hours) 5:30 Awards 6:15 - ? Big ass party csponsored by PDG and RM Contractor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 You are going to need more time(some time) between sessions. Start the race at 11a and go 6 hours. Remember your workers and track help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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