Interesting Participation Numbers

[ianacole]

Since 01/2008:

 

 

[Lemming]

Ian,

 

Interesting numbers. What do the distributions look like if a car is only counted once, not each weekend it races.

[ianacole]

Ian,

 

Interesting numbers. What do the distributions look like if a car is only counted once, not each weekend it races.

 

Participant car ownership demographics? I didn't include NASA Member Number in the dataset, I'll have to ask to have that pulled as well. I'll see what I can accomplish tomorrow.

[cstreit911]

Neat stats...

[Snymo]

Ian, any idea how many races that covers?

 

Thanks,

Rick

[ianacole]

123 events.

[jrgordonsenior]

I want pics of the MBZ race cars....

[ianacole]

Ian,

 

Interesting numbers. What do the distributions look like if a car is only counted once, not each weekend it races.

 

Got it posted.

[Snymo]

So with 123 events, here is what it looks like on average for each class:

 

Class - Entrants Per Event

gst1 - 0.93

gts2 - 3.20

gts3 - 4.80

gts4 - 2.34

gts5 - 1.41

gtsu - 0.20

prc-gts - 1.35

total - 14.24

[RSCoupe]

GTS4 has better numbers than I expected. Glad I'm going with that instead of 5.

[JSG1901]

So with 123 events, here is what it looks like on average for each class:

 

Class - Entrants Per Event

gst1 - 0.93

gts2 - 3.20

gts3 - 4.80

gts4 - 2.34

gts5 - 1.41

gtsu - 0.20

prc-gts - 1.35

total - 14.24

...which looks kind of pathetic in the aggregate, but I know in our region, at least, there are rarely ANY GTS5 cars at a race and usually not more than a couple GTS4s. From the registration numbers for Nationals I would guess pretty much the opposite is true in places like California.

 

Interesting stuff to see.

[pocracr]

The opposite is true here in California. GTS5 can grow and I have already had more calls and more Porsche cars committed for next year. That is if we can Nationally do something about the GT3 and Factory purpose built cars. I know of 3 National GTS5 entries that came very close to pulling from the event when the entry list showed the 2008 GT3. It took some convincing to keep them in. With that said, here in SoCal I am not allowing the GT3 or Factory purpose built cars to run GTS5 and have opted to use GTSU as a place for them, that keeps them happy and the GTS5 guy's happy .

 

Sergio, in SoCal

[B.Watts]

With that said, here in SoCal I am not allowing the GT3 or Factory purpose built cars to run GTS5 and have opted to use GTSU as a place for them, that keeps them happy and the GTS5 guy's happy

 

I'm sorry...WHAT?!?!?!

 

Where is that in the rule book? If they fit the power/weight ratio of GTS5, that's where they belong.

 

I know of 3 National GTS5 entries that came very close to pulling from the event when the entry list showed the 2008 GT3.

 

Here on the East coast, we have a word for racers like that...

 

That is if we can Nationally do something about the GT3 and Factory purpose built cars.

 

What do you propose? Rules that force them into a higher class? How about the complainers simply develop and build their cars (within the wide open rule set) to compete? The factory cars are very limited in their scope and the rulesets they are designed for. The rules easily allow a club racer to build a faster and better car. Or, if they can't handle the heat, they are free to add weight or reduce power to fit into a slower class.

[jrgordonsenior]

The opposite is true here in California. GTS5 can grow and I have already had more calls and more Porsche cars committed for next year. That is if we can Nationally do something about the GT3 and Factory purpose built cars. I know of 3 National GTS5 entries that came very close to pulling from the event when the entry list showed the 2008 GT3. It took some convincing to keep them in. With that said, here in SoCal I am not allowing the GT3 or Factory purpose built cars to run GTS5 and have opted to use GTSU as a place for them, that keeps them happy and the GTS5 guy's happy .

 

Sergio, in SoCal

 

Sergio let me play the devils advocate for a minute.....What would you do if JP decided to run his yellow bee in GTS5? His weight/Hp numbers would place him just inside the limits, and he's very competitive with any GT3 Cup these days....

I'm trying to get him to run...

[Lemming]

Where is that in the rule book? If they fit the power/weight ratio of GTS5, that's where they belong.

 

Got to agree with Brian on this one.

 

I am absolutely opposed to regional directors changing the rules to their liking.

[pocracr]

Curious: Mr Watts, what is the name you folks have for racers like that?. By the paticipation numbers and entries, seems to me the east coast is rather shy about racing at Miller, for whatever the reason, especially in GTS5. You quoted me "That is if we can Nationally do something about the GT3 and Factory purpose built cars" Thats all I said. I made no reference to taking them out of GTS5 Nationally. Conversations I have had with different regions leads me to believe that Nationally, there is not much participation in GTS5. Please correct me if I am wrong. I am only refering to the SoCal region where GTS5 is a popular class. I am fully aware of the rules, both "Regionally" and "Nationally" and am not doing anything the national director is not aware of. I have been given the priviledge to build the GTS here in SoCal, and thats what I intend to do. So, with all due respect. How does this effect you or your region.?

 

 

John, for the record: I have spoken with JP personally, he is welcome to join us and knows it. We have already gone over the HP to Weight. I look forward to seeing him in GTS. We had a car like JP's at Speedway, out of Arizona, was running SP2 and switched to GTS5, unfortunatley transmission problems kept him from running in Sunday's race. You can rest assured that we are inclusive not exclusive. I doubt seriously that he is competitive with "any" GT3

 

Sergio

[B.Watts]

Curious: Mr Watts, what is the name you folks have for racers like that?

 

It starts with a P...

 

You quoted me "That is if we can Nationally do something about the GT3 and Factory purpose built cars" Thats all I said. I made no reference to taking them out of GTS5 Nationally.

 

Then what are you referencing? If they fit the class, they run the class? I'm not sure what "something" we need to do about GT3 and Factory purpose built cars?! We dyno and weigh them and then place them in the class where they belong. What exactly needs to be figured out here?

 

So you are saying that you AREN'T suggesting that those cars run in GTSU even if they fit into the power/weight ratio of GTS5? Because that seems to be what you're saying everywhere else in your post.

 

I am fully aware of the rules, both "Regionally" and "Nationally" and am not doing anything the national director is not aware of. I have been given the priviledge to build the GTS here in SoCal, and thats what I intend to do. So, with all due respect. How does this effect you or your region.?

 

Umm, congrats? You've been given the privilege of changing the rules to pad the egos of racers who are afraid of getting beat up by faster cars in an OPEN RULSET class. Sounds good to me.

 

It affects my region because it's a stupidly bad precedent to set.

 

John, for the record: I have spoken with JP personally, he is welcome to join us and knows it. We have already gone over the HP to Weight. I look forward to seeing him in GTS. We had a car like JP's at Speedway, out of Arizona, was running SP2 and switched to GTS5, unfortunatley transmission problems kept him from running in Sunday's race. You can rest assured that we are inclusive not exclusive. I doubt seriously that he is competitive with "any" GT3

 

Do GT3's have some sort of magic pixie dust that prevents other non-GT3 Porsches from competing with them? Some sort of force field? I don't seem to have any trouble competing with GT3's in a GTS5 tune. GT3's aren't even close to maximizing the ruleset. Spending the same $$ that a GT3 costs, I could EASILY build a car better optimized for GTS5. The difference between building a car from scratch for a wide open ruleset and a GT3 car built to a very strict set of rules would be huge. Would my car get bumped up with the GT3's in GTSU too because it's "too fast" for GTS5?

Edited September 4, 2009 by Guest

[Fred Crawford]

I enjoy running with all GTS 5 cars.. including GT3 cars, have had some good races. I don't aggree to modifying rules anywhere in the country... dangerous....

 

fc

gts 5

[ianacole]

Guys, every Regional Series Director has some latitude to make competition adjustments so that their racers are happy. No changes to the rules have been made; Sergio has worked with his local competitors to come to an arrangement where the GT3 Cup Cars run in GTS-U to help keep competition close and exciting. As the needs of the racers change, so will Sergio's approach. It has also been fully communicated to all the racers that if they go somewhere else to race, e.g. Nationals, they're welcome to run in GTS-5. There is nothing in the rules that prohibits a car to run in a class higher than it's designation by the formula. Until we had enough GTS4 cars I was going to bump to keep the class viable for the National Championships. I fully support Sergio, and all my Regional Directors, in making these adjustments to further competition. Again, the rules have not been changed, Sergio just asked the GT3 Cup Cars to run in GTSU, and they agreed. If a racer, or potential racer, in the SoCal region, has an issue with Sergio's current approach I have complete faith that he will adapt to his participants' needs.

 

And just to be clear, there are other regions making adjustments as they need to promote competition. I regularly will bump a car from one class to the next one or two up for an under-subscribed class, if the competitors all agree to it.

[B.Watts]

Seems like a nasty, nasty precedent. Even more worrisome that this policy comes from the top. Worrisome still that we have a regional director implying in a public forum that we need to "Nationally do something about the GT3 and Factory purpose built cars" in order to attract more cars to run GTS. Will we have a national director soon saying that we need to "nationally do something about cars adding weight or detuning their cars to drop down a class in order to attract more cars to run GTS" How about "nationally we need to do something about motor swap cars that are too fast in order to attract more racers to GTS?"

 

Car A has a turbo and starts to dominate GTS5 in a given region. The other GTS5 racers and director get together at a race and agree that turbo cars should be bumped to GTSU. What's is Car A going to do? Sounds like the director has the freedom to tell him to run GTSU or go screw himself. Are you guaranteeing my that if Car A says "absolutely not", that the regional director has to let him run GTS5? Do we have a process in the rules to deal with this disagreement?

 

Giving the race director freedom to edit the rules and make competition adjustments is a silly and dangerous precedent that could easily ruin the class IMO. If a driver (or group of drivers) chooses to run at a higher class, fine...I'm not sure how the regional director even enters into the conversation. Sounds like a personal decision of the racer. A regional director stating that "I am not allowing the GT3 or Factory purpose built cars to run GTS5 and have opted to use GTSU as a place for them" sounds a lot less like a decision reached by the racers and a lot more like a decision placed upon the racers in attendance who nodded and agreed.

 

Sure hope everyone that plans to run a Cup car was at that meeting when the precedent was decided. When Driver B decides to show up as a new racer in his GT3 Cup car and all of the GT3 Cup cars are running GTSU, he's not going to have the "choice" to disagree and to run GTS5, because the precedent is already set and established. All of his GT3 buddies are doing it, so there must be something in the rules that he doesn't know about. As the newbie, he's not going to jump in and make waves, even though the rules ALLOW him to run GTS5.

 

We have a wide open rule set in the name of being "simple and fair". Do we really need regional directors making decisions about how to restructure the classes to make the racing more "fair"? May not seem like a big deal until the restructured class is the difference between winning 2-4 Hoosiers in one weekend or going home empty handed because there were enough cars in your class to qualify.

 

ian - Honest question. Can you point me to the place in either the NASA Racing rules or the GTS rules where regional directors are given the ability to make competition adjustments? I'm not claiming that it doesn't exist, but I don't remember seeing it in my reading of each. If this ability is in place, hopefully we have a process in place for the racer to take things over the regional directors head if he isn't allowed to run in a class that his car is legal to run in?

[ianacole]

Maybe I wasn't clear, there was no rule change at the regional level.

 

Nor is this being extended at a National Level. If you go back and read my post you will see that I state that if these GT3 cup cars out of the SoCal region go anywhere else, to include the National Championships, they will be classified and run with GTS5. And for that matter, if a GT3 cup car in SoCal wants to run in GTS5, Sergio will let them. Again, this was a negotiated understanding between Sergio and HIS racing community. And for the record, I have told other regions that have brought up the exact same concern with the same exact car to operate in exactly the same way: do what is best by your region in accordance with the regulations. There is nothing contrary to the rules if a GTS5 car chooses to run in GTSU.

 

As I have always told every Director when working with their local competitors to create a fun and competitive environment that they need to be in constant communication with all their drivers to assure everything is understood and agreed upon. Again, this is negotiated among all GTS5 competitors competing in the region.

 

Let's say a majority of GTS racers in one region, a large majority, prefer standing starts over rolling starts. Are you saying it's a dangerous precedent and rule changing for the Regional Director to accommodate the racers in his region? By this Regional Director's actions is it becoming a mandate across the nation? No. It's one region adapting, within the rules, to the desires of the participants.

 

And finally, anyone is always able to contact me if they're not satisfied with the response they're getting from their Regional Director. This does not imply that they will always get the action that they want, but I will always work with the competitor and Regional Director to resolve any issues. I've posted my contact information regularly, but here it is again: [email protected] and 720.270.2147.

[Michael Dayton]

Maybe I wasn't clear, there was no rule change at the regional level.

 

 

Ian - you were very clear but what you said and what Sergio said are very different.

 

The opposite is true here in California. GTS5 can grow and I have already had more calls and more Porsche cars committed for next year. That is if we can Nationally do something about the GT3 and Factory purpose built cars. I know of 3 National GTS5 entries that came very close to pulling from the event when the entry list showed the 2008 GT3. It took some convincing to keep them in. With that said, here in SoCal I am not allowing the GT3 or Factory purpose built cars to run GTS5 and have opted to use GTSU as a place for them, that keeps them happy and the GTS5 guy's happy .

 

Sergio, in SoCal

 

Sure seems he wants something done at the national level and one can only assume it's similar to what he's doing regionally. Also seems he's choosing vs. the racer's choosing. If it's simply a poor choice of words by Sergio then so be it. However, as a director of the series at any level one must be careful on a public forum.

 

So, you want a GT3 Cup series like 944 Cup, SpecE30 or Spec3, fine, but don't change GTS. Any of those cars that meet the GTS requirements should be allowed to race in the appropriate GTS class. As for the racer's that were not happy about the GT3 entry...well I think that's been addressed!

[jrgordonsenior]

John, for the record: I have spoken with JP personally, he is welcome to join us and knows it. We have already gone over the HP to Weight. I look forward to seeing him in GTS. We had a car like JP's at Speedway, out of Arizona, was running SP2 and switched to GTS5, unfortunatley transmission problems kept him from running in Sunday's race. You can rest assured that we are inclusive not exclusive. I doubt seriously that he is competitive with "any" GT3.

Sergio

 

Good to hear you spoke with him, I'm trying hard to get him to join us later this year. His car has been apart all year and is finally almost complete and ready to race.

 

As for his competing with Cups, in 08' JP stepped up his game (and his car) a notch and consistly beat most of the 7 cups and all of the 6 cups including Drew. He ran a 1:32:28 muffled at Laguna, and a 1:43:42 at Cal Speedway in 105 degree heat, and finished the year with a 1:22:56 at WSIR beating 3-6 cups and 4-7 cups. He got real fast last year....

[ianacole]

Michael, Sergio may very well want something done at the National level, many GTS racers do ... some want the HP/TQ formula changed, some want ballast limits, some may want a spec tire. Some of those wanting chnage may even be Regional Directors. They're entitled to their opinion and are also entitled to voice it. Wanting it and getting it are two different things, though, and that is why we will have open rule discussions once the rule change period is upon us. All input will be considered and weighed heavily against the desire to keep the rules simple and straight forward, and to have an open "playground" for us to play in.

 

I have complete faith in all my Regional Directors that they are operating in the best interest of their region's racers, and are communicating well with their participants - with as vocal as this group is I would have heard by now if it was otherwise

[mikew968]

I thought we had a simple power to weight ratio series. Are factory race cars now being thought of differently or is this just one regions way of doing things? Because what is next: wings, aero, big brakes, a car built too well.....