vpnwiz Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 No offense Rusty...But....if that isn't a jumped start...I think the two qualifying races are pointless in the future folks! I've watched that video about 50 times so far. I first watched the other video where the yellow mustang comes flying up the left side and I thought -- there's no way that guy was legal. But after watching the latest video, all I can come up with is you guys in the middle-to-end were screwed by the 2nd or 3rd row slowing or trying to catch up. That latest video can't be any clearer that the yellow mustang didn't jump the start. The green flag is waving away well before he makes any pass for position! Disclaimer... I wasn't there, I wasn't driving (sure wish I was), and I'm only posting this because my dad is really trying to get me to run an AI car next year. (Which I might do... my 2010 plans are totally up in the air right now.) But just based on the video it looks like the yellow 'stang timed the start perfectly. Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWinchester199 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 i drive the yellow mustang. we didnt jump the start. we got caught playing catchup and had radios so we knew when the green came out. it just ended up being lucky that way. as you can see in the videos the cars in the middle had to hit the brakes and us at the back never had to, there is the main speed difference. none of us pulled out of line until the green had waved, therefore none of us jumped the start. the mid pack cars got screwed by the pole sitter, not that i think he was wrong for speeding up but we cant be to blame we were in the back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holster Maker Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I agree, 199 (yel) and 22 (blk) did not jump as first thought. This clip shows the green, I bet you guys thought, why are they going so slow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted September 22, 2009 Members Share Posted September 22, 2009 It is a common practice, especially in Spec racing. The pole sitters slow down right before they think the green is about to be thrown and the mid-pack cars are scrambling not to hit them and as soon as the green is out the front runners take off - it provides them a great way to get some space. it is known as "the accordion effect" - can be an effective way to gain some distance on the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 i drive the yellow mustang. we didnt jump the start. we got caught playing catchup and had radios so we knew when the green came out. it just ended up being lucky that way. as you can see in the videos the cars in the middle had to hit the brakes and us at the back never had to, there is the main speed difference. none of us pulled out of line until the green had waved, therefore none of us jumped the start. the mid pack cars got screwed by the pole sitter, not that i think he was wrong for speeding up but we cant be to blame we were in the back. Playing catch up is also called "laying back to get a run"....what came out of Dean's mouth post race as well as a couple others.....it's also called JUMPING THE START!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWinchester199 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Matt, did you watch the video from rustys car? you can clearly see we had to accelerate out of that corner and werent "laying back" the pole sitter took off and everyone had to get on it, we just happen to be the last ones to do so and got lucky. if we jumped the start why didnt we get black flagged? also, im pretty sure what you heard us talking about post race was getting an amazing jump (unreal was the term i used i believe), not "we jumped the start". trust me none of us could believe it went green either, but the aix guys were already green so i guess the officials had to go green for us or throw yellow for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QUASAR Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. He comes out of the last turn at approx 45MPH and is right up on the car in front of him as he should be. As soon as he hits the straight, the pack in front of him pulls away, and he accelerates (at part throttle-- look at the green throttle indicator on the bottom left) to keep up. When the car in front hits the brakes, he COMPLETELY lifts off the throttle, then the green comes out, and he goes to wide open. By my freeze-frame, he's going 68MPH when the green comes out, which wouldn't have been possible if the pole sitter was properly pacing it. He didn't jump anything, he just got lucky to be on the tail end of the slinky and be accelerating with space in front of him when the green came out. Agree, thats exactly what I took from it. Playing catch up is also called "laying back to get a run"....what came out of Dean's mouth post race as well as a couple others.....it's also called JUMPING THE START!!!! His run was CLEARLY the result of the accordian effect, not laying back on purpose. The timing was such that it worked out for him and screwed the middle of the pack. Had the pole sitter not sped up or had the start finish line been further down the straight this would have never happened. How about NOT allowing the polesitter to alter pace after the pace car pulls off?? Problem solved! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Matt, did you watch the video from rustys car? you can clearly see we had to accelerate out of that corner and werent "laying back" the pole sitter took off and everyone had to get on it, we just happen to be the last ones to do so and got lucky. if we jumped the start why didnt we get black flagged? also, im pretty sure what you heard us talking about post race was getting an amazing jump (unreal was the term i used i believe), not "we jumped the start". trust me none of us could believe it went green either, but the aix guys were already green so i guess the officials had to go green for us or throw yellow for them. Yes. I saw the back half of the field screwing around not keeping it tight as directed two turns prior. It was if the back 8 cars didn't even bother to bunch it up. Personally. The green should not have been thrown. If the six guys had issue with getting a yellow because of it, they could take it up with pat later for pulling his tricks. Ultimately the race played out right in the end for most but I saw a lot of dumb decisions being made before t1.... Very reminiscent of the carnage from that vintage event 3 or 4 years ago which wrote off a bunch of cars and put people in the hospital. Watching both of the back of the pack videos had me cringing waiting for the big one. Nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWinchester199 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 i agree there could have been a lot of carnage, however all the drivers did a fantastic job checking mirrors before pulling out, and holding their lines through turn one except the firebird but he had suspension issues that caused his line change. i will say i think we could do a better job getting the pack bunched, but with that little straight before green its hard to bring the field up to speed and not get some accordion affect. in the end the guys that were faster all weekend got back around me anyway. cant wait to have another go at it next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 As I heard explained once very eloquently in a drivers meeting, a photograph of a properly executed rolling start taken a fraction of a second before the green is thrown should appear indistinguishable from a standing start. They rarely come off that well, but it is possible if everyone does their part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff F Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Uploaded a higher quality version (link in the post above updated): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 As I heard explained once very eloquently in a drivers meeting, a photograph of a properly executed rolling start taken a fraction of a second before the green is thrown should appear indistinguishable from a standing start. They rarely come off that well, but it is possible if everyone does their part. So, back to the question. What should have done at the start of the AI race? Waive it off? Black flag offenders? How does the second start get waived, when the first group took the green? Or most importantly what is going to be done in the future to prevent this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 I think there is reluctance to waive it off because that penalizes the other classes in the group that didn't botch their start, which leaves black flags for the worst offenders as the best option unless it's just so screwed up it demands a do-over. This is the second time in four years that the AI race has had a debacle on the start, so you'd hope some better instructions and procedures will follow, but it seems like these things often get forgotten by the time the next year rolls around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted September 23, 2009 Members Share Posted September 23, 2009 For consideration as a procedure: no passing before the start finish line on flying starts Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevepoe Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 For consideration as a procedure: no passing before the start finish line on flying starts So everyone else has to pay for someone sleeping at the start. and if they do you loose any chance on moving up in the field because of it. That would really suck . Standing starts would fix all this. I loved them in cmc when we did them wish ai did them in great lakes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevepoe Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 I 've watched that video several times and can't see anything done wrong from the back. they took advantage of radios and guys in front got a crap deal from the leaders. in my opinion it's just racing. sometimes you win sometimes you loose. how about the leaders must maintain pace car speed till the green comes out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micks 41 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 how about the leaders must maintain pace car speed till the green comes out. Ding, Ding, Ding....we have a winner!!! If not, then there is no reason to even put a pace car on track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koserv Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Ding, Ding, Ding....we have a winner!!! If not, then there is no reason to even put a pace car on track. So there would be a standing start.......from grid! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micks 41 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Problem solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff F Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 For consideration as a procedure: no passing before the start finish line on flying starts So everyone else has to pay for someone sleeping at the start. and if they do you loose any chance on moving up in the field because of it. That would really suck . Those are the rules in Grand-Am (including Mustang Challenge) and I don't think those starts "suck". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 No passing before S/F does make it easier to define and identify a jumped start, but it also takes away that opportunity to make some early moves to the front, and I agree that would "suck." But even that rule would be worthless without personnel being assigned to actually watch and police it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 For consideration as a procedure: no passing before the start finish line on flying starts So everyone else has to pay for someone sleeping at the start. and if they do you loose any chance on moving up in the field because of it. That would really suck . Standing starts would fix all this. I loved them in cmc when we did them wish ai did them in great lakes Who usually pays and how when someone in the front falls asleep at the start on a standing start?? On a different subject, who makes/sells the wing on the 74 car in that race?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevepoe Posted September 24, 2009 Author Share Posted September 24, 2009 Who usually pays and how when someone in the front falls asleep at the start on a standing start?? who usually pays? the guy in the back that gets the jump but has to back out because he can't pass till the flag.all along while the leaders get furthr away. that guys is paying because someone else is sleeping. we are not talking about the front we are talking a few cars deep. not the leader or front row and we are talking about a flying start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevepoe Posted September 24, 2009 Author Share Posted September 24, 2009 Those are the rules in Grand-Am (including Mustang Challenge) and I don't think those starts "suck". Jeff, I wonder how many of those guys got to voice an opinion on that rule and how many don't think it sucks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevepoe Posted September 24, 2009 Author Share Posted September 24, 2009 No passing before S/F does make it easier to define and identify a jumped start, but it also takes away that opportunity to make some early moves to the front, and I agree that would "suck." the sky is falling. King and I agree on something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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