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stevepoe

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robbodleimages
Who usually pays and how when someone in the front falls asleep at the start on a standing start??

 

who usually pays? the guy in the back that gets the jump but has to back out because he can't pass till the flag.all along while the leaders get furthr away. that guys is paying because someone else is sleeping. we are not talking about the front we are talking a few cars deep. not the leader or front row and we are talking about a flying start.

 

I know what you are talking about. What I am saying is when a guy falls a sleep on a standing start, you have a wreck.

 

I say we race longer. Makes the first turn less important. As it should be.

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I know what you are talking about. What I am saying is when a guy falls a sleep on a standing start, you have a wreck

 

agreed but if a guy is sleeping on a standing start with three lights and plenty of vision something is wrong. I've seen many standing starts in many different racing series and the accidents that I've seen at the begining of a race are few and far between

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robbodleimages

Nothing like being the guy starting behind the 911 Porsche on a standing start. I have seen too many pile ups in standing starts. I know some guys think they are great, but it would I won't do them.

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A couple points:

Regarding someone asleep for a standing start, it's exactly the same situation for a rolling start. A guy doesn't have to be asleep to get overtaken during the start. Examples: spiinning the tires, missing a shift, car stumbles, guy behind reacts quicker, car behind gets off the line better, the list is endless. Getting passed at the start of the race isn't always caused by a driver not paying attention. And all of these conditions exist in a rolling start as well. Dont' change the current rules. Inforce the existing rules. If someone (usually the pole sitter) trys to get a jump, either don't start the race or black flag him. It's pretty simple, but it's rarely done. What's the point of a pace car, if all hell breaks loose once he pulls off the track.

I've never done a standing start, but that looks like a great opportunity for a mess. However, as Matt said, all starts need to monitored and there needs to be action taken when it's not right, regardless of the type of start. As is often the case 99% follow the rules, and the 1% screw it up for the other 99%. Just consistantly punish the 1% and this all goes away.

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roadracerwhite
A couple points:

Regarding someone asleep for a standing start, it's exactly the same situation for a rolling start. A guy doesn't have to be asleep to get overtaken during the start. Examples: spiinning the tires, missing a shift, car stumbles, guy behind reacts quicker, car behind gets off the line better, the list is endless. Getting passed at the start of the race isn't always caused by a driver not paying attention. And all of these conditions exist in a rolling start as well. Dont' change the current rules. Inforce the existing rules. If someone (usually the pole sitter) trys to get a jump, either don't start the race or black flag him. It's pretty simple, but it's rarely done. What's the point of a pace car, if all hell breaks loose once he pulls off the track.

I've never done a standing start, but that looks like a great opportunity for a mess. However, as Matt said, all starts need to monitored and there needs to be action taken when it's not right, regardless of the type of start. As is often the case 99% follow the rules, and the 1% screw it up for the other 99%. Just consistantly punish the 1% and this all goes away.

 

Well said.

 

Just as much can go wrong with a flying start as a standing start. I have seen it first hand at Blackhawk Farms, during a Midwestern Council race. One guy missed a shift and stomped on the brakes just after the green causing at least a 6 car pile up and one car upside down.

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To take this one step further, if the pole sitter has the ability to vary the speed of the start, then the parade car (formerly pace car) needs to exit the track much sooner. This allows the field to adjust their starting speed the pole sitter.

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To take this one step further, if the pole sitter has the ability to vary the speed of the start, then the parade car (formerly pace car) needs to exit the track much sooner. This allows the field to adjust their starting speed the pole sitter.

 

Just to clarfiy, adjusting your speed is not taking off and leaving the entire field. A slow and controled increase of speed is reasonable, as is a gradual decrease. But it cant be dramatically different then what the pace car set or it's going to be a screwed up start. It's seems pretty straight forward to me. I've seen it work hundreds of times. Then there's the few times where someone is looking to capitalize in big way and then it's a mess.

As for those who write, "that's racing", that's not what the rules indicate.

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m.erickson15

An additional clarification... This race was not just a normal regional race with 5-9 AI cars. This was the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP RACE! 15 of the top amateur (and some Pro) racers in the country. So "that's just racing" should not be a motto for this race. Playing games at the start of the Championship race leaves a bad taste with any racer regardless of group, starting or finishing position. We sure don't want to discourage attendance to the nationals becasue of problems with the start of our races.

 

Maybe next year we start the race at the second S/F line at Miller. Check out an aerial view of Miller to see this. Todd referred to this s/f line incorrectly in an earlier post. This would allow all the cars to get on the front straight and lined up properly.

 

http://picasaweb.google.com/TexasCMC3/2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 4468592994

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I agree with Dave. This whole thread is caused by the pole sitter, period. Enforce the rules. I have had my share (probably over 50) pole positions in the Midwest and Great Lakes region. There are rarely any problems with starts in the Midwest. It is all about the pole sitter increasing his speed slowly and steadily to the speed he chooses. The second part is once his pace is set, no speed change until the green flag flies. It is not that hard. Some of the pole sitters (including Spec Miata which was actually worse) act like they have never been on the pole position before. Either that, or they are playing F*in games. Grow up and act like professionals. We are all experienced racers, let's act like it.

 

The only real problems we have in the Midwest is when people don't keep up in the middle and then try to catch up causing an accordian effect. The cars need to keep close to each other on the pace lap and line up two by two early enough and that problem usually goes away also. This is pathetic. I am embarrassed that at a chamionship event we even have to discuss this.

 

Next year my suggestion will be for a stop and go for the pole sitter if it is not a smooth start. End of story.

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Maybe next year we start the race at the second S/F line at Miller. Check out an aerial view of Miller to see this. Todd referred to this s/f line incorrectly in an earlier post. This would allow all the cars to get on the front straight and lined up properly.quote]

 

As my two year old daughter says," I like it". With such a long front stretch the first start/finish line is vey early.

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We actually do the same thing at Road Atlanta - we start the races from the end of the straight and finish the race from the start stand.

 

SpecMi-otter screwed up the start on Friday and Chris will vouch that I came down hard on them and explained that anyone jumping the start in Saturday's Championship Race will be black flagged.

 

The problem with "jumped starts" is it can be very subjective and hard to determine the difference between a good start vs a jumped start.

 

For the record: NO increase in speed over the Pace Car speed is allowed - until the green flag is thrown.

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For the record: NO increase in speed over the Pace Car speed is allowed - until the green flag is thrown.

 

Back on page 9 of this thread, Todd said this

 

3) I was clear in the driver meetings that since we wouldn't be doing standing starts, I wanted to assure that starting speeds were slow.

4) Pole position determines speed, as Adam pointed out.

5) Pat L. did mention to me that he was going to pick it up a few MPH (I think he mentioned 4-5 MPH) for the race, as the prior races he was in a bad place for RPM range/gear. I took no exception...as pole position determines speed, and we already discussed slow starting speeds.

 

I think this will lead to that page:

 

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=30602&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=80

 

It looks like there's an unclear message here about who sets the speed, pole or the pace car. Is this decided by race director, region, or NASA? At the very least I think this should be answered before September 2010.

 

Jason

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Thanks Jason,

Wow...I disconnect the modem to pack/move the house and 4 days later there's 4 more pages of discussion!

All in all....good comments by everyone. I came into this Championship with some clear expectations, based upon experiences we've all had at prior Championships. I felt as though standing starts would have alleviated a lot of these shenanigans, however, we know how 50% of the field feels and erred on the conservative side. The results were less than expected, but overall, I don't think the Championship race was a "total disaster".

1) Yes. The lead & the tail of the pack were not as tightly packed as I'd like to see.

2) There ARE officials assigned to observe for jumped starts.

3) The go/no go decision (for waiving the field) needs to occur within 3 -5 seconds when the cars are on the front straight (and taking other things into consideration.) It was discussed, and decided to "GO".

4) Pat L. did appear to "spring" to the green unexpectedly in the vids, however, from the tower it was not that evident and he was passed soon after the flag flew making the point moot (from an unfair advantage standpoint.)

5) No-one (repeat) no-one, "jumped the start" as the instruction was "green flag means go". There were no passes initiated before the green flew. (Please stop trying to tar/feather your fellow competitors with these allegations.)

6) With nearly 40 minutes of full-on racing, I did notice that your AI 3rd place podium finisher was nearly dead last in L1T1, but managed to work his way back up. IMO, things worked themselves out throughout the race and hopefully no-one was saddled with their "starting position" when the race was over.

7) I think most of you will agree that the qualifying race starts in the days prior were successful. This Championship race start (and past) issues will not be forgotten, and we will, one way or another, ensure that there is not a repeat next year.

 

Talk to you guys soon....

 

-=- Todd Covini

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Damn you all are high maintance items.

 

Thank goodness we don't have a woman who races with us.

 

You mean like my wife, who raced with you at the 2007 Nationals? I didn't get to see that start as I was on the front straight, but from the in car video that one wasn't stellar either.

 

Jason

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6) With nearly 40 minutes of full-on racing, I did notice that your AI 3rd place podium finisher was nearly dead last in L1T1, but managed to work his way back up. IMO, things worked themselves out throughout the race and hopefully no-one was saddled with their "starting position" when the race was over.

 

 

-=- Todd Covini

 

 

Guess I owe you a Shiner Bock for that one Mr. Director! Shall I bring my list of rules suggestions this weekend?!

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