ianacole Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Establish: A Clear definition of BALLAST, with a Maximum allowable amount of "Bolt In" ballast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakermc Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I think there are two issues here. A definition for ballast could be good if it is aimed at safety. I would support that. Maximum amount of ballast is a different issue related to car classing, and I do not support that. As a result, voting 'NO'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
good hands Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I think there are two issues here. A definition for ballast could be good if it is aimed at safety. I would support that. Maximum amount of ballast is a different issue related to car classing, and I do not support that. As a result, voting 'NO'. Define safe ? Can 400lbs of bolted weight be added to car safely ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakermc Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I think there are two issues here. A definition for ballast could be good if it is aimed at safety. I would support that. Maximum amount of ballast is a different issue related to car classing, and I do not support that. As a result, voting 'NO'. Define safe ? Can 400lbs of bolted weight be added to car safely ? Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pocracr Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I don't thinks so........My guess is that 400 lbs of bolt in weight is not an industry standard. Is this 400 lbs, distributed? Stacked? how is it attached to the car? is it a bag of bricks in the trunk? I only say bricks cause I have seen it !! If the GTS is to allow ballasting to change class, then I think that it would be prudent to add criteria to the rules. Sergio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakermc Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Assuming this is a stripped out race car, you have tons of surface area to bolt in lead bricks and distribute the weight safely. The car is strong enough to hold the weight, if you use the correct hardware, please tell me what the problem is? Again, I support rules that limit stacking in some way or define hardware, but the total amount of the weight is NOT a safety issue if it is installed correctly. If your shop can't figure out how to do that you need a new shop. The fact that some people have done it with a bag of bricks is a statement about them, not the science behind safely bolting in 400 pounds. And again, the problem with this proposed rule change is combining the two issues into one rule. This one feels a little like Congress with their add-ons to bills. I'd like to vote FOR rules on safety (I even started a thread on this a while back) and AGAINST rules on max limits but I can't do that in this pole. I'd rather keep the classing open and let Darwinism play out as it may. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pocracr Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 If your shop can't figure out how to do that you need a new shop. The fact that some people have done it with a bag of bricks is a statement about them, not the science behind safely bolting in 400 pounds. If I needed to bolt in an elephant to make weight sir, I can gaurantee you that it would not come loose. However, there are those folks out there that build there own stuff in their own garages. They are called club racers, not everyone can afford or are willing to pay people like you to bolt it in for them. Rules and guidelines are established for several reasons. On another note, I always try to make my post respectful to everyone, without getting personal, so I would Thank You to keep your kindergarten comments to yourself. Sergio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakermc Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 If I needed to bolt in an elephant to make weight sir, I can gaurantee you that it would not come loose. However, there are those folks out there that build there own stuff in their own garages. They are called club racers, not everyone can afford or are willing to pay people like you to bolt it in for them. Rules and guidelines are established for several reasons. On another note, I always try to make my post respectful to everyone, without getting personal, so I would Thank You to keep your kindergarten comments to yourself. Sergio People like me? I'm a club racer myself, not sure what you mean by that statement but it does have a hint of disrespect in its tone. lol Have you tried drilling through a thick lead brick before? Having a shop do the work is a lot cheaper than buying a drill press. Furthemore, you'll probably want to place the weight in the proper place as part of the corner balancing process. Unless you are doing this repeatedly, it's again cheaper to use a shop instead of buying your own set of scales. No offense was intended, Sergio. Sorry if you read that into my post. We are in agreement that rules should be established about HOW to attach ballast. What we appear to disagree about and what you have not explained is why you think there should be a maximum allowable weight due to safety concerns. Do you wish to expand on that thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELEPHANT1 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I don't thinks so........My guess is that 400 lbs of bolt in weight is not an industry standard. Is this 400 lbs, distributed? Stacked? how is it attached to the car? is it a bag of bricks in the trunk? I only say bricks cause I have seen it !! If the GTS is to allow ballasting to change class, then I think that it would be prudent to add criteria to the rules. Sergio Really? How much does your engine weigh? [Edit] That's potentially insulting to some of the larger drivers out there! ; ) What industry standard is there for any ballast? I agree that there needs to be something written on attachment methods and *possibly* distribution but only for safety reasons. Ballast, IMO, is just as much a performance modification as mods to affect HP, torque, handling, etc. PS - as sad as it is, I've seen a car whose owner/team "installed" bags of lead shot in rear panel crevices as ballast. Sheesh. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Graber Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 In my opinion the Safety issue of ballast should be addressed in the CCR's, and it is not. It should then be up to the Series to establish ballast limitations, if any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemming Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I don't believe that the CCR even mentions ballast. I am in favor of rules dealing with safety, such as what size bolts are needed to hold X lbs of ballast. I am not in favor of limiting the amount of ballast that one can use. If limits are set, I'm sure that people will start reinforcing their seat mounts with 1" thick steel plates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Graber Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 I agree. We race with multiple classes on the track at the same time and I would expect any safety related item to be addressed in the CCR's so that all cars are prepared to the same level of safety. Why should GTS have it's own stringent safety requirements and be on the track against another class like HC, no offence, who may have a lower level of safety, or visa versa? Ballast installation is a safety issue, not a Series issue. Ballast limitation is a Series issue, not a safety issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSG1901 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 My problems with this rule are two-fold. First, as far as I know, none of us is qualified to say what is or isn't a safe amount of weight to bolt into a car. In the absence of facts, everybody is just guessing. Second, when this discussion started several months ago, it was not (originally) about safety but was, instead, about some people's beliefs (a.k.a. guesses) that you could take a higher-class car (e.g., GTS5), add a ton of ballast to make it fit into the next-lower class and somehow, with that extra 800 lbs of lead, dominate the series. Ignoring for a moment that the physics of the thing make that all but impossible, if it's possibly to safely hold a 300+ lb driver in place with a couple of seat belt bolts, certainly it's possible to hold almost any amount of ballast in place with a reasonable number of appropriate fasteners. Since this proposal is not about the number and placement of fasteners but is simply an arbitrary limit on ballast, I'll vote NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabbit_diesel Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 In my opinion: Regarding the GTS classing, what difference does it make to the acceleration whether some fellow started with a 300 HP engine and a 3000 pound race-car, or the same engine and a 2000 pound race-car and added 1000 pounds of ballast? Essentially none. (As I see it, the car that was designed for the heavier weight is likely to last better under racing conditions, as the components would have been built more stoutly.) If there is a question of safety regarding ballast, the answer to that should be in the CCR, not in the GTS rules. This is because the same consideration would apply to every race series. So to this proposal, no. Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianacole Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 I have been informed that the CCR will address the safe mounting of ballast next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
911.racer Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 I voted no as I am assuming the meaning of the poll. I am not in favor of limiting the quantity of weight in lbs. I would support, however, a rule that states that no one can use ballast to lower the class of a car more than one class. So, that would mean that a car that would fall into gts3 without weight could add weight to get into gts2, but not into gts1. btw, I am sort of a fastener engineer, or at least I have easy access to them (my role is more reverse engineering and management). I would be able to help with the development of proper size, class, and quantity of fasteners for a given quantity of weight. I could even probably write a macro for excel that would provide quantity of a given size of fastener for a given weight. Ed Baus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSG1901 Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 I could even probably write a macro for excel that would provide quantity of a given size of fastener for a given weight. That is a great idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 I have been informed that the CCR will address the safe mounting of ballast next year. there already are guidelines for it - 1 x 3/8" bolt per 15lbs with fender washers as backing plates I've got 75lbs on my PTF car, 5 bolts, 10 washers, and I went a bit extra and added 2"x2" steel plate squares to further strengthen the washer-to-car area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianacole Posted September 29, 2009 Author Share Posted September 29, 2009 I have been informed that the CCR will address the safe mounting of ballast next year. there already are guidelines for it - 1 x 3/8" bolt per 15lbs with fender washers as backing plates I've got 75lbs on my PTF car, 5 bolts, 10 washers, and I went a bit extra and added 2"x2" steel plate squares to further strengthen the washer-to-car area. In the CCR, or series specific regulations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 d'oh, the PT rules make refrence to that "guideline" in the CCRs, but it isn't actually in the CCRs. Here it is though - if it helps you guys write your hardware requirements. I'll leave the class philisophy battle alone "Free Mod #34: Maximum two hundred fifty (250) lbs. of added ballast - All ballast must be of solid material (no fluids or pellets) and safely secured in any location on the vehicle approved by NASA safety inspectors. The preferred method is to use at least one (1) 3/8" grade 5 bolt, two (2) fender washers and a locking nut system for every fifteen (15) lbs of weight." I know that some classes with other clubs, and some classes within NASA specify where you can put that weight (passenger seat area is the usual specified area). a data point on the costs of ballast - I had to add 75lbs to make the minimum weight for my car. I did all of the work myself, bought 3 x 25lbs weight lifting plates from a used sporting goods store for approx $0.50/lb, drilled them by hand, etc. All told I have about $60 in parts/materials/supplies to mount that in my car. Figure $1/lb though if you want to use that for an arguement, maybe $1.50/lb if you pay a big fancy shop to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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