2010 Rules Request - ABS

[Jeff F]

I realize that this isn't "how it's done" this year, but I am submitting this and encourage everyone to add their input. Below is a direct copy-paste of what I sent to Todd. Although I stated my preference, what we really need is an enforceable rule, and the current one is not. Enforeable means nothing, or everything. If we go no ABS, that makes my life easy as I don't have it now. If we go open ABS, I have to spend a lot of time and $ but come out with a competitive advantage.

 

1) Name / Region / Car # / Contact Info (email or phone, etc)

Jeff Feit, Great Lakes, AI #61, [email protected]

 

2) Rule reference # (ex.- Rule 3.2 – Title, Part, section…)

8.3 Anti-lock brake systems are prohibited except for an unmodified OEM system, which includes

ABS valve body and electronics as delivered from the factory. Updating and backdating of

factory ABS systems into newer and older cars is allowed. Calipers are unrestricted.

 

10.1 Traction control devices other than factory-installed units are expressly prohibited.

 

We were previously told that the FR500C and FR500S ABS Modules are not allowed. JWL has been copied and he can provide background. Some prior discussion on the subject:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18004

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24658

 

3) Recommended Revised Wording

ABS braking systems and traction control are prohibited in AI. ABS and traction control are unrestricted in AIX. (Honestly, AIX doesn’t matter much to me, but in a class where you can have unlimited engines, you might as well have unlimited ABS)

 

4) Reasoning for change MUST include at least 1 of the following:

The reasoning behind this request is that the current rule is completely unenforceable. This was demonstrated at the 2009 National Championships. I know for a fact that there were cars with illegal ABS. I specifically asked how the ABS rule was going to be enforced, and was told that they had no way to enforce it.

a) Will decrease series cost because…

…it will save competitors the cost of upgrading their cars to the ABS systems required to be competitive. Cost to disable ABS and traction control is negligible.

b) Will increase series competition because…

 

c) Will increase competition because…

…having no ABS will put all cars and platforms at an equal level of competitiveness.

[MikeP-99Z]

What was illegal with the ABS?

[stevepoe]

What was illegal with the ABS?

 

Jeff is speaking about the fr500s and c anti lock module. Not legal for AI And know way to tell it from gt500 abs module

 

m-2353-a is the part he is talking about

 

it will save competitors the cost of upgrading their cars to the ABS systems required to be competitive. Cost to disable ABS and traction control is negligible

 

I agree with Jeff on this to a point. yes , It can cost. I just spent $400 dollars to add my gt500 brake system.

 

I've spent alot of time and money and just finished installing my stand alone gt500 brake system so I hope it doesn't become illegal.

 

AI needs to move forward with technolgy or it will become another version of A-sedan.

[tacovini]

Jeff....no harm in a good discussion.

Can you provide some more tech?

How does the GM ABS unit differ from the Ford ABS unit?

How does the SN95 ABS unit differ from the S197 unit?

How does the FR500S & C differ from the S197 unit?

If folks use in-car proportioning valves, doesn't ABS just become for the "haves & have nots only"?

Can you provide 100 Ford ABS units for all AI competitors at a "group buy" price to ensure everyone is on the same playing field? (OK...no need to answer that.)

 

The only reason the FR500X ABS was deemed illegal was due to their exclusivity at the time the rule was written. If they are now available to the public, then the point is moot. Most modern pony cars now come with ABS. Who knows?? Maybe the GM ABS unit is superior in a race prepped Mustang or vice versa?

 

-=- Todd

[MikeP-99Z]

Just curious, what makes the FR500X ABS unit that much better than the GT500 ABS?

 

Since the rule is written to use an OEM unit, is the C6Z06 unit (or the GT500 unit) that much better than my stock Z28 system?

 

Is a proportioning valve considered a modification to my factory system, since it is installed along the brake lines and hasn't modified my factory head unit or computer?

[D Algozine]

Cutting edge technology equals higher cost. The FR500X is a purpose build race system. Next year there could be an even better system, so then does that system become legal? When does it end? I agree with Jeff, there is no way to properly police any of these electronic devises, so keep them off of the cars. I lilke to think that AI is still a drivers series and not a technology or spending race.

If the goal is to level costs, then eliminating ABS surely fits into the plan. Most existing AI cars don't have ABS. The cars that have ABS are mostly new cars to the series. Regions that get rain know what a huge advantage ABS can be.

The same goes for traction control. How are these systems checked for stock compliance and who is going to do it?

Personally, I think AIX is the place for cutting edge technology, not AI.

[robbodleimages]

brakes are safety first. I totally disagree with making our race cars harder to stop that the average modern street car.

 

The FR500C Module costs a few hundred bucks. Its cheaper than a new set of heads or a trick intake or wizzy new reserve cannister dampers

 

The idea that we would allow $7k shocks, but require all the cars to remove their ABS is a$$backawards.

 

Edit: I hear that two T1 drivers were critically injuried at the SCCA runoffs because of brake failures and we have the initial reports on Rich Shafer's crash that indicate brake failure. I could be wrong about these crashes, but the fact remains that we should not hamper our braking.

[MikeP-99Z]

The cost of a few hundred dollar ABS unit (or the no cost factory supplied unit) is nothing compared to the rules hit from last year when 18" wheels and 14" brakes were allowed - that was a $10,000 hit (which I don't plan on taking anytime soon).

 

and yes, I am on the side that says keep ABS.

[Jeff F]

How does the GM ABS unit differ from the Ford ABS unit?

I have no idea

How does the SN95 ABS unit differ from the S197 unit?

In more ways than I can describe. The S197 is light years more sophisticated. It has dynamic rear proportioning, much more sophisticated control algorithms, the ability to determine lateral acceleration based on the speed difference between left and right side wheels and use it in it's ABS control, the ability to vary the braking effort on all 4 wheels during an ABS event to induce under/oversteer...

 

How does the FR500S & C differ from the S197 unit?

The FR500C and FR500S units were both specifically calibrated to those cars, on race tracks, with the correct suspension and tires. It is a pure race tuning that doesn't have any of the compromises found in street car ABS.

 

If folks use in-car proportioning valves, doesn't ABS just become for the "haves & have nots only"?

Not even close.

 

Can you provide 100 Ford ABS units for all AI competitors at a "group buy" price to ensure everyone is on the same playing field? (OK...no need to answer that.)

I went out of my way 2 years ago to make the FR500S a catalog part that was available to anyone. You can buy it for $200. Put it on anything but a S197 Mustang, however, and the results will not be as good. The difference in wheelbase, track width, suspension, and a number of other parameters mean that it is not optimized to that application. How much different? Nobody knows. But if the rules don't change, I'm going to find out how it works on a Fox body. And retune it if necessary. Oops, did I just say that?

 

The only reason the FR500X ABS was deemed illegal was due to their exclusivity at the time the rule was written.

Not true. See above.

 

If they are now available to the public, then the point is moot. Most modern pony cars now come with ABS. Who knows?? Maybe the GM ABS unit is superior in a race prepped Mustang or vice versa?

Doubtful, but who knows. Get rid of ABS, then the point will be moot.

 

We've been through this too many times, but the point continues to be missed:

1. The current rule is unenforceable.

2. The only way to make the rule enforceable is to get rid of ABS altogether, or open it completely up.

 

Believe me, I understand that it's a tough call and I can see (and make) the argument for both sides. I hate to see us going backwards technology-wise, but we are in a sticky spot. It just so happens that the S197 has some parts available to it that are a huge advantage, and those parts don't translate to other platforms well. There are also ways to reprogram production ABS modules IF you know the right people and IF you have the right tools. Doesn't seem right to leave an advantage to those that are driving the "right" kind of car, or know the right people to get around the rules. Open the door completely, and you're into a Bosch M4 race abs; fully programable, and last time I checked was $10K+. Anybody want to go there?

[MikeP-99Z]

I'd also like to see factory ABS added CMC and CMC2 (but I'll start another thread for that).

[D Algozine]

Some prior discussion on the subject:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18004

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24658

 

No real reason to rehash this ABS / traction control issue. Just go back and re-read the two threads that Jeff listed in his initial post. That pretty much includes everything there is to say about it.

[robbodleimages]

btw....Jeff. I need an AIM dash. I hear you are the man on that subject

[MikeP-99Z]

The Bosch system is pretty wicked.

 

Since the rules don't state it, is KERS illegal?

[nape]

I researched GM F-body ABS for a little while and it boils down to this:

 

-'82-'92 cars were never offered with ABS, even as an option. The only way to do it with somewhat stock parts is to make hubs out of mid-90s S-10 pickup rotors and then you're still left with the ABS system from an S-10 pickup... BTW, I don't think this was ever tried, just theory and parts bin bench racing.

-'93-'97 cars don't seem to have much of a problem with ABS, but I don't think anyone has used it at an AI level.

-'98-'02 cars have an "Ice mode" issue where the system will just give up and throw you the finger sometimes.

 

Most F-body race cars delete the ABS module by the time they become competitive.

 

The 3rd gen front suspension is not even close to 4th gen parts, so F-bodies don't even have the option to update like the Fox through New Edge cars do.

 

My vote is to illegalize ABS. It's such an advantage in the rain that it removes a lot of the skill and turns it into a have/have not situation. If you're worried about burning up tires in the rain, turn ABS off for a few rain races and learn like the rest of us have. Seat time and proper car control are beaten into our heads the entire way through the NASA process, why stop now?

 

For the guys that don't want to entirely remove it from their cars, have them install a seperate fuse block in the trunk for the ABS fuse. That way, they can install it when they aren't racing in AI, but it'll be more difficult then normal to cheat if they deem necessary.

 

PS- Todd, do we need to write you in addition to Jeff to get more emphasis put on this or will you consider the input stated on this forum? Thanks.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Guest

[nape]

The cost of a few hundred dollar ABS unit (or the no cost factory supplied unit) is nothing compared to the rules hit from last year when 18" wheels and 14" brakes were allowed - that was a $10,000 hit (which I don't plan on taking anytime soon).

 

and yes, I am on the side that says keep ABS.

 

A few hundred dollar ABS unit is going to cost a lot to retrofit onto other cars that it wasn't designed for. How much do custom tone rings, sensor brackets, brake lines, etc cost assuming you can make them to fit? It would be interesting considering the diameter of my rear hubs is larger then the diameter of the stock tone rings.

 

18" wheels are a no-brainer for F-bodies with the Corvette parts bin and 14" brakes aren't that bad either. Two sets of wheels and the brakes can be had for <$2,000 total.

[robbodleimages]

Be careful not to American Sedan this class.

[stevepoe]

The idea that we would allow $7k shocks, but require all the cars to remove their ABS is a$$backawards

 

couldn't have said it better myself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

For the guys that don't want to entirely remove it from their cars, have them install a seperate fuse block in the trunk for the ABS fuse. That way, they can install it when they aren't racing in AI, but it'll be more difficult then normal to cheat if they deem necessary.

 

Just pulling the fuse doesn't work. Yes it kills the abs system but you no longer have the brake system working properly. trust me I know this for a fact. I didn't have my anti lock system hooked up at Gman. it was installed but wasn't finished yet. My brakes where no way up to par. It took two session just to remove brake rust from the rear rotors. Hooked up at putnam and a night and day difference. Now if I can only get the car to rev above 5000 rpm I'll be in better shape/ but that is another story.

 

btw congrats on your mid west championship. Knowing what you have gone through to get that car to that point is well deserved.

[swhiteh3]

I agree with Jeff on this rule COMPLETELY. Thank you for bringing it forward Jeff. Consider my vote in favor of it.

[D Algozine]

Be careful not to American Sedan this class.

 

I've seen this comment before. What does it mean?

AS rules are totally different then AI. Why would anyone want to attempt to make that comparison?

 

I'm miffed how anyone could not understand the difference between high end shocks and ABS. Expensive shocks may HELP the car handle better, but the driver skill has to be there, and you have to have the set up right. Plus shocks are a basic suspension component that everyone changes, and quality shocks are readily available for nearly any AI car. Quality ABS systems are only avialable for newer cars and retrofitting is difficult, nearly impossibe in some cases, and expensive. PLus, with ABS - push pedal to the floor, and turn. The better these system become the less driver skill it will take to be competitive.

[ST#97]

Dave...the class you seek is called CMC...sorry but AI is fine just as it is but feel free to get rid of 18's and 14" brakes.

 

As for making ABS illegal...? Do it and there will be an ST2 on the side of my car. I like round tires that last 4 to 5 events. Why make me remove something that came stock on my car? Hell, the System on the Sn95's ain't bad at all and you CHOSE to remove it when it was already allowed...your CHOICE.

 

Personally, even the FR500's that were at Miller could not outbrake me unless they were on Hoosiers or R1's. I see no problem with allowing that system.

 

Frankly, if you guys are wanting to cut YOUR costs, take steps backwards to create "spec" cars and want to drive in a "driver's series".....then you need to go to CMC2 or spec pinata and let AI die on the vine as it seems about 70% of the racers in AI don't like the rules anyway.

 

I would consider my car's current state as the original intent of AI...but all the bling bling "serious race parts" that are coming in are killing the grassroots nature of AI and turning it into "scca-ness" IMHO. Do I really want to be competing against guys with $200k AI cars that have 8 monkeys climbing all over it between sessions and have wind tunnel time and are willing to box up the car in a wild move in T1 L1 ...? No. Do I think I need all that crap...No.

 

Keep in mind guys...you take away ABS and the difference between CMC2 and AI is a cam change and splitter/wing add. Keep it up and AI/CMC will be one class in 2 years...Great for car count, great for Toyo to pay out less Bucks and only make the 275/40 RA1...(black helicopters are circling).

[MikeP-99Z]

I COMPLETELY agree with Matt's post.

[nape]

The idea that we would allow $7k shocks, but require all the cars to remove their ABS is a$$backawards

 

couldn't have said it better myself.

 

We allow $7k shocks, but they aren't mandatory. The shock package on my car cost $550, complete. If I could put ABS on the car for <$1000, it'd be a done deal.

 

Just pulling the fuse doesn't work. Yes it kills the abs system but you no longer have the brake system working properly. trust me I know this for a fact. I didn't have my anti lock system hooked up at Gman. it was installed but wasn't finished yet. My brakes where no way up to par. It took two session just to remove brake rust from the rear rotors. Hooked up at putnam and a night and day difference. Now if I can only get the car to rev above 5000 rpm I'll be in better shape/ but that is another story.

 

btw congrats on your mid west championship. Knowing what you have gone through to get that car to that point is well deserved.

 

I didn't know that about ABS. My tow vehicle is the first thing I've ever owned with working ABS.

 

Thanks, it's been a long road but I think we've arrived.

 

-----------

 

Dave...the class you seek is called CMC...sorry but AI is fine just as it is but feel free to get rid of 18's and 14" brakes.

 

As for making ABS illegal...? Do it and there will be an ST2 on the side of my car. I like round tires that last 4 to 5 events. Why make me remove something that came stock on my car? Hell, the System on the Sn95's ain't bad at all and you CHOSE to remove it when it was already allowed...your CHOICE.

 

If you're that adamant about it then Matt, there needs to be some solution. I'll put my car up against any ABS car for dry braking performance, but in the rain the ABS car wins every time. I'm not a total slug in the rain either, but there's only so much you can do. I wouldn't even care if I could install ABS, but there's no factory system to retrofit one onto my car. What's the solution to this problem?

 

What's your complaint about 18s and 14" brakes? If you've got ABS, what do you care about a larger diameter rotor? You're already getting maximum braking force through the computer.

 

Personally, even the FR500's that were at Miller could not outbrake me unless they were on Hoosiers or R1's. I see no problem with allowing that system.

 

The biggest reason I want to see it eliminated is the rain. I could care less about dry performance.

 

Frankly, if you guys are wanting to cut YOUR costs, take steps backwards to create "spec" cars and want to drive in a "driver's series".....then you need to go to CMC2 or spec pinata and let AI die on the vine as it seems about 70% of the racers in AI don't like the rules anyway.

 

I would consider my car's current state as the original intent of AI...but all the bling bling "serious race parts" that are coming in are killing the grassroots nature of AI and turning it into "scca-ness" IMHO. Do I really want to be competing against guys with $200k AI cars that have 8 monkeys climbing all over it between sessions and have wind tunnel time and are willing to box up the car in a wild move in T1 L1 ...? No. Do I think I need all that crap...No.

 

What bling bling "serious race parts"? You mean the $10,000, AL block, high compression, DOHC motors that some people are running? Oh... my bad...

 

Keep in mind guys...you take away ABS and the difference between CMC2 and AI is a cam change and splitter/wing add. Keep it up and AI/CMC will be one class in 2 years...Great for car count, great for Toyo to pay out less Bucks and only make the 275/40 RA1...(black helicopters are circling).

 

That's a pretty bold statement, it must be a long time since you've read the rules...

[stevepoe]

If I could put ABS on the car for <$1000, it'd be a done deal.

 

I gurantee you that for $1,000.00 you could put a abs sytem on that car. it doesn't have to be car specific.

 

 

Just for the record to everyone saying this is so expensive. I spent $400 for my abs system that is it. It's not expensive.

 

If it can't be policed ,legalize it. Don't take away from guys that have abs now just because you don't want to spend the money?

 

It would be a pain to remove my abs and replumb all my brake lines and ad a pp valve.

[nape]

I gurantee you that for $1,000.00 you could put a abs sytem on that car. it doesn't have to be car specific.

 

Just for the record to everyone saying this is so expensive. I spent $400 for my abs system that is it. It's not expensive.

 

The reason it only cost that much is all the parts were designed and produced by the OEM. They absorbed all the R&D and tooling costs.

[stevepoe]

The reason it only cost that much is all the parts were designed and produced by the OEM. They absorbed all the R&D and tooling costs.

 

I'll agree with that. why couldn't you get a junkyard corvette/ newer camaro abs box? I'm sure with some research you could find something that you could adapt to make work on your car .

 

Just a fyi TJ.

 

a good friend of mine works at a gm scrap yard. meaning they get test cars and other vehicles, i.e. left over bodys and things from all gm manufacturing lines. It's crazy they have to film cutting up corvettes and such so they can't be sold complete but if you need anything let me know.

 

ebay home page for them

 

http://stores.shop.ebay.com/STRICKER-AUTO-PARTS__W0QQ_armrsZ1