Jump to content

2010 Rules Request - ABS


Recommended Posts

Sorry to chime in so late on this topic. Unfortunately, I feel that many of these comments are aimed at our new cars. A few comments (pepare to be upset):

 

1) If someone is claiming that any of the Rehagen cars were running the FR500C/S module, you're sadly mistaken. I will give you information that I shouldn't, but it's more to dispell any thoughts that we were "cheating". The Toyo tire is a piece of crap. It does not have the long g capability that a Hoosier or BFG does. Using one of those modules on an AI car is stupid. Those modules lead to brake lockup and square tires. The GT500 ABS module is the part to use because the Goodyear street tire is as close as you're gonna get to the Toyo grip level.

Also: If you are "The Man", your super-human racing skills should allow you to threshold brake better than any ABS car. At least this is what I was told when requesting ABS for CMC2 cars. It was almost the same cost to build an AI car as it would have been to build a S197 car to CMC2 rules after I bought custom wheels to fit over my 1-off custom brake kit.

 

2) You read the rules and decided to come play in this series. Shut the hell up about not being able to afford the right parts for your car. The rules have not changed in that department so quit crying and race in a class you can afford. OR, stop spending so much time on the internet and get a second job to suppliment your racing budget. I work 10-12 hours per day almost every day in order to be able to do what I do. Use your discressionary time to make money instead of writing in forums.

 

3) Rich a$$holes??? Is this directed at me? Rusty?? Seriously??? Just because you aren't willing to make the sacrifices required to race competitively isn't my problem. Again, race in a class you can afford or figure out how you can get the parts (or training) you need to be competitive. And here's a little salt for your wounds. My car only cost me about $24k to build. Yes, I found used parts and built my car. I bought a V6 roller for $1,400 and a crashed 2007 GT for $4,800 (yes, I did sell some parts off it too). I got a deal on some other parts. I built my car in 2 weeks!! My car was nothing special. It was a Ford Racing catalog car. You'd be hard pressed to find anything exotic on that car. My car also didn't look like a science project with my dashboard cut up and wires strewn all over the interior. Pay attention to the details instead of bitching about someone having something you don't have. Work harder to get what you want. If you're not willing to put in the effort, why should the rules be changed to fit your car???

 

4) 8 monkeys? I wish you said that in Utah! One of those "monkeys would have had a chat with you... First off, learn to count. ONE crew guy per car! There were only 3 monkeys. Drivers also worked on their cars so I guess that makes 6 monkeys working on 3 cars. If you have any friends, ask them to come help you. Bring 3 or 4 if you want. I didn't see anything in the rules that limits the number of friends you can have, but I'll guess if someone has more than you, you'd complain about that too...

 

5) A weight penalty for ABS cars. How do you justify that for acceleration and cornering? What is the plan? Make all ABS cars uncompetitive so they will be forced to go to a different class or just leave NASA all together? That's a bad idea like a few have mentioned.

(Added in editting): Another thing... Howabout we change the HP and TQ ratios to the reverse of what they are? The current rule favors the pushrod engines. It's give and take... Okay, ABS gives S197 cars an advantage (according to some/most). HP/TQ rule favors pushrods. Call it even...

 

6) New cars are coming. My 2010 car is going to have better aero than my 2007 car. What then??? The series has to evolve and competitors need to step up to the level of the competition. THAT is what racing is about. Someone is always going to have something better. Figure out how to get it yourself. The older AI cars can always be sold to new guys coming in that just want to do HPDE and grow into a race group. They can always go over to CMC. In order for this class and series to succeed, it needs a stable rules package, stable proceses, and stable procedures with room for the new models.

 

7) Further to point 6, but to the SCCA (AS) comment: You'll see guys coming from SCCA to NASA because they are tired of antiquated rules packages and cars. That's why most of you are in this class because you have lots of freedom and the rules fit your car (and there are a LOT of different ways to get there). It's that way to keep car counts up (and they have gone up quite a bit in most regions).

 

8) Car counts: Don't you think the economy has more to do with car counts than a $6,000 set of shocks?

 

In summary, I would oppose a ban on ABS. "ABS is a safety net, not a hammock"!

 

Back to the rich a$$holes thing... How do you actually have the balls to call someone an a$$hole just because they have more money than you? Who ARE you actually calling an a$$hole? Name names... Your blind comment has actually made you an a$$hole. If you ARE calling me an a$$hole, you clearly know very little about me. Six years ago, I had nothing but a job. I wheeled and dealed parts and services so that Scott Whitehead and I could build my first Grand Am car in my garage at my house. It was built on a shoestring budget for well under half the cost of the front running cars at the time. We won the first race that car ever competed in. It's not about money (because I have very little), it's about figuring out how to get what you want or need and do the best you can with what you have. You just don't want it enough! If you really want it, make the sacrifices and find a way. You may not be rich, but you can always be an a$$hole.

 

Dean Martin

AI #52

Not-So-Rich A$$hole

Edited by Guest
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 97
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • robbodleimages

    12

  • nape

    12

  • D Algozine

    10

  • ST#97

    9

Red Tornado

Amen brother!!!

 

I am with you 1000% and am thrilled we have so many new cars and players coming in.

 

This is what a good series is all about.

 

See my deleted post about cry babies.

haha

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been reading these posts and congratulating myself for making the decision to get out of AI. Between the race start whining and the "he's got more money than me" whining, I was glad for the decision. Then Dean comes in and set some sheet straight......Well said Dean! Well, except for the sell your AI car thing. I tried that, no market......

 

Fact: With open rules like AI has, it is inevitably going to end up going down that slippery slope in terms of rules. First of all, with lack of enforcement, like no dyno's at tracks throughout the year in some regions, and such a wide variety of cars legal for the series, it's too difficult to create the perfect rules package. Ultimately between rule changing, lack of enforcement, and people being negative in forums, it will slowly kill the class. All the negativity doesn't entice new drivers to want to build a car to be involved in the class. Whatever rules you guys decide on won't kill a class ultimately, but the negativity and lack of enforcement will. Just my humble opinion. Remember, right now with the economy hype, it's "fashionable" to be on a budget.

 

ABS: Why are you guys fighting it at this point? It's going to happen. There is a place for it now in AI. I didn't used to be for it, but times have changed. Either AI moves with the change, or it becomes like AS. Just don't go so far and become what Transam became. How do you enforce it? Seriously. What rules that are in place now are being consistently enforced? You guys don't need me to name the parts of your cars that aren't being checked thoroughly. It's not happening. NASA is doing the best they can with the little man power they have, but until they are able to actually start checking all cars for all the rules, it's a moot point.

 

Example: My current class of karting, started with 6 people. We were all so evenly matched and having so much fun that at the end of the year we ended up having 38 people run with us. There was no rule enforcement at all. They didn't feel they needed to and this class was bringing in big numbers. They didn't want to rock the boat that was paying the bills. Throughout the year, some of the best drivers bailed most of the races and aren't coming back next year. Some of the bone heads were found to be cheating by other drivers, and those same bone heads were doing a lot of hitting and knocking others out of races with no consequences to pay. This is costly for the "good drivers" and effective for the "bad drivers". So now the class lost it's top drivers, but kept the ones cheating and beating on each other. The ones no one wants to race with.

This isn't the direction that anyone racing wants to go. If you vote for a rule, make sure it's to make sure it's easily enforced at every track, every race. Otherwise, good drivers/cars will go to other series.

From a friendly spectator.

Link to post
Share on other sites
robbodleimages

boy dean,

 

right on. i am not rich. anyone that knows me knows that I have an $800 a month racing budget. I augment that by working as a series director and by working fulltime each race weekend as a track photographer. I may be an a$$hole. somethings, i guess, can't be helped. I have raced a nicely prepped 95 Cobra R with abs, but no aero for 3 years. I never thought to tell anyone that their big expensive wings were an unfair advantage.

 

abs. safety net. correct. the previous comment about abs being an advantage over no abs in the rain. why is that? you mean the non-abs cars were slipping and wrecking and the abs cars weren't? safety first.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some quick observations.

American Iron is not falling off the face of the earth. Between the economy and the normal ebb and flow of drivers attending events, I see no significant changes.

 

ABS is one component of hundreds of parts that make up an AI car. I've read about the huge concern for AI becoming antiquated because of eliminating one part. That's crazy. The rules are wide open for many innovative parts. Many series manage to remain relevant without ABS. Again attempting to compare AI with AS is just plain silly.

 

Regarding technology, I think of innovative fabrication or meticulous car prep. Why does it have to be a gadget to be technical? I don't see the relevance of the current high tech street cars being manufactured and an AI race car. I'm consistantly reminded that a competitive AI car is highly modified for racing, and that AI is not a show room stock class. So which is it, highly modified or dependent upon stock parts to remain highly technical (what ever that means) ?

The value of the newer cars is the solid platforms, nearly race ready suspension geometry, wider and longer wheel bases. What else does the manufacturer have to offer that is relivant in AI... traction contol, climate control, kick a$$ stereo, Aerodynamics, heated seats???? What technilogical parts are we expecting in the near future that we are going to be missing out on, that will make AI aniquated? The cars are pretty basic. What remains is everyones personal approach to car modification. Pat and Dean are at the complete opposite end of the spectrum, in regards to car modifications, and they are both top of the speed charts, so go figure.

Link to post
Share on other sites

More on technology.

 

S197 cars can be fast with the Ford parts catalog because of the technology Ford engineered into the platform. My 95 Mustang sucks with Ford catalog parts. It needs an improved front end geometry and a completely redesigned rear suspesion. Same for the Fox and the 3rd and 4th gen F-bodys fall somewhere in between. New Camaro, no idea, I'm guessing the geometry is nearly race ready. So technology from the manufactures is a greatly improved platform, not ABS or other systems. Technology also is prevelant in the aftermarket parts: shocks, springs, control arms, calipers, pads, etc...

Again don't get sucked into the idea that electronic devices are good for the series. They are nearly impossible to police and take away from driver skill.

AI has a basic rule set, hp and Tq to weight and a spec tire. I've said this before K - I - S - S.

 

Regarding the spending of money. Who gives a crap how much money someone spends. This is a free country. Although there is some nobility to getting it done on the cheap, and being inovative, there is no reason to be shi!!y to someone who has money and likes to spend it on racing.

Link to post
Share on other sites
robbodleimages

Dave>>>"Again don't get sucked into the idea that electronic devices are good for the series."

 

Which electronic devices? Outlaw ABS? Outlaw EFI? Outlaw ECU's?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Dave>>>"Again don't get sucked into the idea that electronic devices are good for the series."

 

Which electronic devices? Outlaw ABS? Outlaw EFI? Outlaw ECU's?

 

 

How about a computer controled throttle body that is specifically designed to maintain a programmed HP and TQ throughout the entire RPM range? It's already in an AI car. And I'm sure someone will come up with something even better, soon.

Link to post
Share on other sites
and??

 

You can't talk about cost containment and stock brakes out of one side of your mouth and then act like electronic stuff doesn't cost money. I'm sure you can put together ABS and drive-by wire relatively inexpensive, but the learning curve on doing it cheap is a steep one.

Link to post
Share on other sites
and??

 

It's expensive, espeicially if you can't do it yourself

Most have no idea even how to do it, or where to get it done

Unnecessarily complicated

Would make AI appear less abtainable by prospective racers

Easily programed for "other stuff", and completely impossible to check (I've seen this one before)

Adds nothing to the series

Does not promote better racing

Simply another gadget that's not listed in the rules, that gives an individual an advantage, which promts other racers to go out and buy , said gadget. Nothing is gained, except more complicated parts.

Link to post
Share on other sites
robbodleimages

I know a lot of stuff is expensive. I can't afford $2k on a carbon fiber wing and $1500 on a carbon fiber splittler either. But the Cobra R does have ABS. So, you are suggesting that I don't get to keep my ABS on a 1995 car either.

 

BTW...I posted "and??" because I wanted to know what we were talking about. You guys want to outlaw the EFI and the ECU too? Is that what you are saying?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I gave up on this thread a few days back cause it was going no place.

 

I read Deans post and Laughed cause it's so true.

 

I consider all the guys that race ai friends .Hell ,anyone that shares my passion for sports car racing for that matter.

 

I would be glad to help out anyone I could whenever I could. being help with parts , beer, ketchup or a place for shelter. I draw the line when sharing my wife.

 

Can we please end this thread. and just all get along and let mr Covini deal with about what to do.

 

if not,I need to go make some more popcorn cause after 9 pages I'm out.

 

 

Let's race.

 

p.s. my car cost less then 18k to build. I'm thrifty like Dean.I'll sell it for 25k and build a new car if anyone wants .The bald tires and grass in the splitter are free

Link to post
Share on other sites
I know a lot of stuff is expensive. I can't afford $2k on a carbon fiber wing and $1500 on a carbon fiber splittler either. But the Cobra R does have ABS. So, you are suggesting that I don't get to keep my ABS on a 1995 car either.

 

BTW...I posted "and??" because I wanted to know what we were talking about. You guys want to outlaw the EFI and the ECU too? Is that what you are saying?

 

I've got to figure out a better way to say expensive... how about 'perceived cost"?

 

We already have a high perceived cost with all the trick stuff we allow, but I'm worried that we will lose future participants when they start seeing drive-by wire, ABS, etc as more then a rarity. We're already at this point, how long before we see electronic ride height adjustment, traction control, launch control (for those who want standing starts), cockpit adjustable sway bars, shift cut, and what else can we add to the list?

 

It's not so much that the part actually helps, but that someone just looking at the series could think you need it to win. We don't need to be driving ALMS cars in 30-45 minute sprint races.

 

PS- Wings are cheaper in fiberglass and NASCAR COT splitters are $75 shipped on ebay...

 

Let's race.

 

Absolutely. Where is it still warm?

 

The bald tires and grass in the splitter are free

 

How about the white paint?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Members

Let's race.

Absolutely. Where is it still warm?

Come on down! December 4-5-6 - we have a 9 hr Santa's Toy Run Enduro on friday, season championship sprint race on saturday and the every car on track for an hour Santa's Toy Run race on Sunday - last year we had 84 cars start the race and NO incidents - it was a hoot!

Link to post
Share on other sites
Come on down! December 4-5-6 - we have a 9 hr Santa's Toy Run Enduro on friday, season championship sprint race on saturday and the every car on track for an hour Santa's Toy Run race on Sunday - last year we had 84 cars start the race and NO incidents - it was a hoot!

 

That is my plan. TJ?

 

How about the white paint?
Hey, that wasn't me. lol talk to Greg on that . I do have some red paint on the car And that I'll take credit/blame for .

 

Honestly , it was the bald tires.

 

everyone laughed. they said How old are they. No clue ,I bought the set for $200 shipped on ebay and he had no clue how old they are either.

Link to post
Share on other sites
robbodleimages

I think you have to face the facts that last era's Steeda 5 link is this era's racing ABS and the next era and the era after that will be further advanced.

 

Either you stop advancing the technological growth of the series and endup where the series stopped bringing in new cars at two or three generations of cars back or you grow the series by making it realistic for the new cars as they arrive.

 

Yes, there are S197 Mustangs in SCCA AS, but they race with pushrod engines, 12" brakes and 16" wheels. You have to replace the entire drivetrain and brake system to race a current Mustang in that class. Its ridiculous.

 

BTW...I backup Jim's suggestion that y'all come south and race at Road Atlanta in December. Its a hoot.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This post is getting longgggggg

 

Originally I was against abs and tc. After following this post I've been boucing back and forth on the matter. I had a thought, isnt this class based around mustangs and camaros? And dont these cars now come with abs off the showroom floor? Basically it should be allowed or will be stuck in the fox era. As for enforcement, just allow all abs, if someone wants to spend $10k on development of the ultimate system to get a few tenths over me I'll have even more fun when I run them down

 

Still on the fence....

Link to post
Share on other sites

TJ, your latest post about "where COULD this go" is totally true. However, you seem to have YEARS of car building knowledge and access to TONS of used race parts in your part of the country. "Greenhorns" to the series don't have the vision and some of us have nothing but drag racing Pickup trucks in our regions for inspiration or used parts. It's also pretty obvious that the left and right halves of the country have VERY different visions of "club racing" and again, we Texas jerks are stuck in the middle! LOL!!!

 

To clarify the "rich a$$hole" comment, it was quoted from the numerous times I've heard it, sometimes directed at me even, by folks on the outside looking at AI. Those are my customers and potential racers for this series....and inevitably, they go to CMC after they look at the rules and see they COULD spend 200k building a to the rules car. Not everyone turns their own wrenches and there is a "laptime/dollar spent" meter for most folks. Others like bang for the buck close racing.

 

If by not reading this thread alone, you can't tell the AI rules are "TOO far out there"...something is amiss, or maybe I have been duped into believing NASA was created as a grassroots budget racing series. Sure Koni Challenge and Grand Am are expensive and I am not looking for saturday night dirt track cheap, but how about reasonable?

 

As for the FR500 abs unit being used in AI, or deeming it illegal... A cmc racer commented "just have a claimer rule" if they are running that unit or the stock GT/GT500 unit. NASA would buy one S197 brake unit and could "swap you" for it at any event and then take it offsite and tear it down. If found cheating, you're gone....permanantly.

 

Maybe I was blind, or inexperienced (probably the case) when I first read the rules for AI, but my impressions of the 3 series were as follows. CMC=stock with shocks/springs brake pads and RA1's...go racing. AI=swap the suspension stuff, play with aero, bigger brakes, fixed Power to weight, bigger RA1's and go racing. AIX=fat wallet. Over the last 3 years, AI has NEARLY become X. What should AI be? A true middle of the road. Realistically, the difference between the classes is much less than that.

 

Calder, to answer your question, the top four cars at lap 3 all had 18's and 14" brakes...IIRC...top two cars on the podium had 18's and 14's with 6 piston brakes...and neither had ABS. LOL!!

 

<---lives on a planet where there aren't many guys to play with in AI for the last three years....

 

for the most part, we need to know what national HQ is thinking of where they want the series to go. Othewise this is all nothing but a bitching session for nothing.

Link to post
Share on other sites
bluefirepony

Calder, to answer your question, the top four cars at lap 3 all had 18's and 14" brakes...IIRC...top two cars on the podium had 18's and 14's with 6 piston brakes...and neither had ABS. LOL!!

 

<---lives on a planet where there aren't many guys to play with in AI for the last three years....

And the third place car did not

I'm doing what I can to give you someone else to play with next year so show up at Houston with your l'il ol' small-wheel-small-brake-third-place-nationals-butt-kicking hooptie and your plasma cutter and help me drop a couple hundred pounds off my pig

Link to post
Share on other sites
brucebyerly

Page 11, yeah!

 

Interesting arguments on all sides.

 

I'll keep it simple:

 

ABS: Yes (and I don't have it)

 

14+" rotors and 6 piston calipers: NO

 

I looked at racing this and that. NASA appeared more open & friendly, if you will. And the fuel injected car of my dreams would be legal. The A Sedan analogy is valid.

 

Carry on . . .

Link to post
Share on other sites
RWinchester199

The only way to not cost anyone a bunch of money is to leave the rules the way they are now. If you take away 14in brakes and 18 in wheels the guys with new cars are out a bunch of money. however if you leave them in its FREE for everyone. if you take away abs the people who have it, must spend the time (and time is money) to take it off the car. if you leave it, its also FREE. so everyone wants cost affective lets leave the rules the way they are and no one who was in the series this season HAS to do anything to their cars, but can if they CHOOSE to. and as for cheating, if you get caught cheating the lax rules that are in place now (no idea why you would need to) then you are done for the season, that should be stiff enough to keep anyone from doing it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

OK boys & girls....It's time to lock this thread. I think we've heard plenty from both sides of the ABS argument...both Pro & Cons. I'm glad that Dean had a chance to respond, because we need all perspectives. The last thing we want to do is to alienate ANYONE from the series whether they are eating

Top Ramen to go racing OR bringing spare cars in 18 wheelers.

 

Everyone is welcome....the rules and the enforcement of them are what WILL equalize the field.

 

A fun, cohesive and respectable group of racers is our #1 marketing tool to get car counts up.

 

(Besides all this time & energy on ABS has taken away from any other number of rules topics to get tossed around & discussed!)

 

-=- Todd Covini

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...