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John K Shirley

The window net regulation

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cs_rally

Josh,

 

I have to agree with your logic and I hope you come down to run SB.

 

I think the most logical answwer at this moment is following Mark's advice in another post and list on the supplemental of SB that nets are recomended, but not required.

 

This will give more time for a wise and definitive solution to this issue.

 

Hope to see you there,

 

Carlos.

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jerseybrandon

 

Third part: Worst case scenario, cars A and B are both in crashes, car is on its lid and you're stuck inside for whatever reason. Car A is on a road course there are corner workers a-plenty and an ambulance 500' away. Car B is on a rally stage, ... Which car would you rather be in?

 

All of us would rather be in Car A. (Except that Car A is not rallying, so we probably wouldn't be too interested... *grin*) However, this question does not address anything particular about window nets.

 

Anders

 

Sure it does, if you're upside down in the car, is it easier to get out on your own or be extracted with or without a window net? Corner workers know what, when and how... rally spectators may not.

 

Brandon

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talon 763

The biggest problem I have is; How come we have not heard from anybody that is responsible for this rule. With only 2 weeks away before I have to leave I need answers on what is going to happen in SC. Are they going to enforce this rule, what are the mounting requirements. I don't have time to just sit around and then get the car ready at a moments notice. With my business I am pretty much busy all day 5-6 days a week. I already tried to install them once and ran into problems so I am just waiting now to for answers. If they are able to delay the open class restrictor rule until after Sandblast due to time constraints you would think they would do the same for the window nets, seeing how much controversy it is causing. The silence is killing me.

Edited by Guest

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Luckyrallyracing

Mark,

 

I did not ignore your comment, I just didn't see the relevance between a nascar race 40 years ago and our current situation. They are so dissimilar I could not find a paralell. I a guy crashed in a 4000lb sedan into a wall with a loose lap belt on and a 2400 lb rallycar with a 10 x more advanced cage, seats, belts, ect. Anything could have saved his life, and I'd bet my life that I would WALK away from that crash if it was in my car as it currently sits without nets.

 

My point is that the risks are competely different from a roundy-round car and a rally car. And for John to quote "experience from usac"- that just infuriates me more as they have NO rally experience.

 

Nets are dangerous in a rallycar. That is my point. They have a drastic impact on the amount of time it takes to exit a rallycar, and that time is only compounded with the type of crashes that are prevaliant in rally situations. Unlike roundy-round, you are by yourself for extracting yourself. Unlike roundy-round, there are no armco barriers and smooth walls. Unlike roundy-round, we have windows. Unlike roundy-round, we drive out of those side windows. Unlike roundy-round, we have production based cars with confining interiors, without "nascrap bars" to attached these nets to.

 

The preceived need for nets confounds good judgement. If this is truely a club, then we should decide what is appropriate. If our current insurer will not cover us without window nets, move on to someone who will. Or we will move on to a sanctioning body that will.

 

I just dropped my car off at one of the "big boy" shops last night, and they all pretty much shared my feelings on the matter, and NONE of them where aware of the new rule. (from what I could understand) So it seems 95% of the cars will be arriving without window nets.

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Anders Green
If this is truely a club, then we should decide what is appropriate. (snip) Or we will move on to a sanctioning body that will.

 

Before this goes way, way off topic:

 

NASA has never claimed to be a club. Their web page says "We are a business dedicated to organizing and promoting racing activities for both the aspiring or accomplished racer." The do have "membership", but there is no provision anywhere for member votes on issues or, I believe, voting on any positions within NASA.

 

RallyAmerica has explicitly said it's not a club, and that there will be no member voting on anything.

 

Love ya JD,

Anders

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Anders Green
if you're upside down in the car, is it easier to get out (snip) with or without a window net?

Ok, now a question that addresses window nets. *grin*

 

Answer: without. Unless your hand is broken, or your head is crushed, from going out the window. *grin*

 

I'm really not worried about speed of egress. In rallying five years, I've only seen two cars that burned. Neither was an instant fireball, and both occured minutes after the crash, from stuff dripping onto a heat-soaked turbo.

 

Corner workers know what, when and how... rally spectators may not.

 

Rally spectators also don't know how to work my hood pins (standard hood pins), or what "TOW" on my bumper means, or how to undo my harness (standard cam lock harness, not that they would know how to undo a latch harness either).

 

I will certainly agree that corner workers are better trained (trained at all!), and more effective than rally spectators.

 

Cheers,

Anders

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starion887

We got our nets installed yesterday. We used the fine mesh types as planned for better visibility. The upper mount is the GM button style on a long rod, with the button facing out. The lower mount is a 3/8" mild steel rod, anchored on the back to the body work. The front is held down by a 3/16" SS braided cable. The lower rod is a long Z shape; the Z at the front is such that it kicks the edge of the net out towards the door panel, and sits about 1/4" from the door panel when in place. This keeps the lower edge of the net away from the driver's left elbow.

 

The rear lower mount is a simple pivot, that allows the whole assembly to drop down when detached.

 

The issues:

1) The window opening is half triangular, not a neat rectangle. The rectangular net does not fit well at all. The compromise is that the net only covers the window opening to about 15" ahead of the front edge of the seat; OK for the helmet, but not complete protection for the hands.

2) It does provide a good forward opening for the co-driver to pass things in and out to someone right beside the car, but the net will have to be released to hand a time car out to a person in a control car.

3) There is also a 2" gap at the top. Probably OK.

4) A car like a Golf with a more rectangular shape should be more amenable to the standard net shapes.

5) The rear lower rod attachment, on the body, will be subject to a crushing side blow to movement and being jammed. It was attached this way to enable the Z design on the lower rod, which was needed to kick the lower front edge of the net away from the driver's arm.

 

ONE BIG IMPROVEMENT: This arrangement is such that the standard inside door panels are retained. This is being done with the option to keep this car configured so that it could be run in RA PGT at some point. If the requirements for the door panels to be retained for P/PGT were dropped, then overall window net installatino would be eased. But now I am mixing RA and NASA! Hmmmm......

 

 

Now to address JD's latest post:

>>I did not ignore your comment, I just didn't see the relevance between a nascar race 40 years ago and our current situation. They are so dissimilar I could not find a paralell. I a guy crashed in a 4000lb sedan into a wall with a loose lap belt on and a 2400 lb rallycar with a 10 x more advanced cage, seats, belts, ect. Anything could have saved his life, and I'd bet my life that I would WALK away from that crash if it was in my car as it currently sits without nets.

 

JD, the final 'oafishal' judgement on that event was the window net would have saved his life, not just anything, as you want to believe. You seem determined to make up 'facts' as convenient to continue to dismiss a good lesson learned.

 

And in separating a 2500# rally car from a 4000# Pontiac or a lightweight formula car, you are igonring the fact that the car weight has nothing to do with it: it is the side G's experienced by the occupant(s), and that can be experienced in a very wide range of cars and configurations. More recently was the situation car of a spin and impact on the left side of a NASCAR car in New Hampshire that killed Kyle Petty's son. It was a combination of the G's and lack of side head support that killed him. Have you ever hit a tree sideways at 45 mph, like I did many years ago? I was lucky that it was a somewhat glancing blow, but I was knocked out without hitting my helmet and has a very sore neck for a while. I was about 26 years only, much stronger than now, and if the impact had been faster and just a bit different angle, it would not have been a good result for old Marky.

 

>>My point is that the risks are competely different from a roundy-round car and a rally car. And for John to quote "experience from usac"- that just infuriates me more as they have NO rally experience.

OK, continue to be infuriated and don't look at the situation for what it is: a valid attempt to improve safety.

 

> Nets are dangerous in a rallycar. That is my point.

This is an opinion that DOES count in a vote, but is not a statement of fact.

 

>>They have a drastic impact on the amount of time it takes to exit a rallycar, and that time is only compounded with the type of crashes that are prevaliant in rally situations.

I just got mine installed, see above. It takes < 2 seconds to reach up and release, the same amount of time to release the lap belts. The GM and mini-link latches are obvously designed to be quick release, and they are.

 

>>Unlike roundy-round, you are by yourself for extracting yourself.

This argument was heatedly made when we went from rollbars only to roll cages: cages will slow down self-extraction. So I guess you will soon advocate going back to just rollbars by this logic??

 

>>Unlike roundy-round, there are no armco barriers and smooth walls.

O for goodness sake, have you ever seen some of the house-sized rocks on stages up in Canada??

 

>>Unlike roundy-round, we have windows.

They run lexan side wndows in some events. Side windows bust out.

 

>>Unlike roundy-round, we drive out of those side windows.

I've used nets for quite a while; its not a problem. I have not heard you relate any direct experience to make a call on this.

 

>>Unlike roundy-round, we have production based cars with confining interiors, without "nascrap bars" to attached these nets to.

Very true, and here is very much agree with you; the difficulty is in the size of openings, the variety of side bars can cages, and interior door panels. This is the one big problem in this rule.

 

>>The preceived need for nets confounds good judgement.

I just can't agree with you JD, but no longer expect to convince you.

 

>>I just dropped my car off at one of the "big boy" shops last night, and they all pretty much shared my feelings on the matter, and NONE of them where aware of the new rule. (from what I could understand) So it seems 95% of the cars will be arriving without window nets.

I am not happy with the lack of effort and input from NASA in getting this started. I can't understand the lack response to multiple inquiries; it is very much weakening their authority in these areas.

 

So be it. I am trying to find good solutions to implement this safety deivce.

 

Mark B.

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starion887

>>>>Mark, you know I respect you and you have been in this game longer than I have, but I take issue with a few points in this paragraph. First off, lets not make this an ol southern boy neglected by yankees, no one has said anything about that but you so far and I personally have no problem with nascar or roundy rounders.

 

OK, good. I see someone using the word 'nascrap', so his opinion is very clear. I took that as an overall attitude to try to explain to myself why a classic example was just being completely ignored. I am glad you look at all aspects of racing for good lessons.

 

>>>>All that aside, let me ask you this: What do you think is more likely, an oval racer hitting his head on a wall that surrounds the entire race track or a rally driver or co driver hitting their head on a tree?

Are we talking probablity?:

- You need to include banks and rocks not just trees to form a complete picture. These are as immovalble as a concrete wall or armco barrier.

- Have you thought about the possible lifesaving effects on the driver in our recent tragic double death in Oregon? If this was a high speed left side impact (which is the sketchy info I have) into a bank, would this not have helped the driver's chances to survive? We have relatively few deaths in this continent, but those few have had a very high impact on us.

And you can extend your argument to eliminate roll cages and seat belts....

 

>>>>Second part: Would you say the chances of a roll over are higher in a rally car or in an oval racer/road racer?

I don't really know; I'm not trying to be evasive.

 

>>>>Third part: Worst case scenario, cars A and B are both in crashes, car is on its lid and you're stuck inside for whatever reason. Car A is on a road course there are corner workers a-plenty and an ambulance 500' away. Car B is on a rally stage, did they get lucky and wreck at a spectator spot or near the end where the ambulance waits? Which car would you rather be in? I know that if something were hindering my escape from a crashed race car, I'd rather be in car A.

I'll repeat my story to JD: The same arguments were made in '82 when we weere mandated to install cages, not just roll bars: "It can hinder me from getting out of a wreck." So, by your logic we should go back to just roll bars.

 

Not ranting, just answering,

Mark

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