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2009 Rules - Items up for review?


kbrew8991

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I figured a new thread might get noticed easier than something on page 14 of another

 

Several regions have an early start next year:

Florida - Jan 9-10

Arizona - Jan 9-10

Texas - Jan 30-31

Southeast - Feb 12-14

Mid Atlantic - Feb 20-22

and I'm sure the Norcal and Socal guys won't be waiting too long to start either.

 

The point being that knowing at the very least what will stay the same and what is up for review would really help participants out in those regions - it would let them have quite a bit more lead time on getting their cars ready and more importantly legal for their desired class for the entire following season.

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How does one motion to get re-class power and weight limits changed?

 

In my case, I'm considering a turbo upgrade which would require a re-class for TTA. I understand there might be a slight advantage of my awd over rwd, but I'm faced with choosing power and weight limits that are right around the TTB power/weight limit.

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How does one motion to get re-class power and weight limits changed?

 

In my case, I'm considering a turbo upgrade which would require a re-class for TTA. I understand there might be a slight advantage of my awd over rwd, but I'm faced with choosing power and weight limits that are right around the TTB power/weight limit.

 

 

 

This would be a simple dyno reclass. Submit all related info to Greg for a base reclass.

 

AFAIK, the list of rules to discuss include shocks, aero and some base classing for some of the newer cars that have the ability to driver select 3 different power settings. Im sure there are other items but I dont have the list in front of me. Greg and I are scheduled to meet for a preliminary rules discussion on Nov 6th where we will lock ourselves in the garage, fully armed and ready for combat.

2 men enter, 1 man leave.

 

AND, the Technical Bulletins you see above will be fully adopted and intigrated into the rules.

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I'd like to get rid of the adjustment factors for TTA-TTF. Reasons being:

 

1) They are a pain to calculate and make my head hurt.

2) They cover things that should have been already factored into base classing (ie fwd v rwd, sedan v coupe, weight, etc).

3) I can see where these might be more crucial or needed in TTS-TTR-TTU but not sure it really makes much difference for A-F cars.

4) If they are rough to calculate and make my head hurt how are inspectors handling this at the track? Much easier to take car weight and dyno #'s than to figure out 3 different multipliers as well.

 

And - in case anyone is wondering - whether these are there or not doesn't really change what I'm doing since I drive a Miata (get a benefit for tire size, take a penality for low weight and rwd, it's a wash).

 

- Mark

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It took years for Greg and I to evily craft the perfect way to make your head hurt, Mark.

Theres NO way were removing it now. Our plan is working perfectly!

Muwhahahahaha!!! Muwhahahahaha!!!

Muwhahahahaha!!!

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Fixed.

 

 

AFAIK, the list of rules to discuss include shocks, aero and some base classing for some of the newer cars that have the ability to driver select 3 different power settings
...and a fair and logical approach to track width increase point assessments.
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...and a fair and logical approach to track width increase point assessments.

 

 

Agreed. Thats on the list too.

 

Very much appreciated, thank you.

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This would be a simple dyno reclass. Submit all related info to Greg for a base reclass.

 

AFAIK, the list of rules to discuss include shocks, aero and some base classing for some of the newer cars that have the ability to driver select 3 different power settings. Im sure there are other items but I dont have the list in front of me. Greg and I are scheduled to meet for a preliminary rules discussion on Nov 6th where we will lock ourselves in the garage, fully armed and ready for combat.

2 men enter, 1 man leave.

 

AND, the Technical Bulletins you see above will be fully adopted and intigrated into the rules.

 

Simple, but not really fair. I submitted info and Greg gave me a list of power/weight limits to choose from, but all those numbers are around 10:1. If I'm re-classing for TTA why can't I pick from numbers that are at least near the TTA limit? Greg suggested I just try to get to the TTA limit with my stock turbo, but that's just not possible even if I drop significant weight on this car (I'm not even counting my adjustment factor here, which is +0.7).

 

I'd still be TTA legal points-wise with a re-class, so I'm not trying to re-class simply based off the power/weight limits.

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I'm sorry, but that doesn't make it fair. Anyone that has to be re-classed and wants to be competitive in TTA will stand no chance with these limits. A C5Z06 is close to 9:1 completely stock, how am I supposed to compete if I'm limited to 10:1? You say just don't and run TTB, well I'd like to run TTA and I'd like to have some limit choices that are better suited to do so. How are these numbers created anyways, and why aren't they published somewhere?

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TTA 8.70:1

TTB 10.25:1

TTC 12.00:1

TTD 14.25:1

TTE 16.50:1

TTF 19.50:1

 

Minimum weight to horsepower numbers per class copied and pasted from the rules. It seems to me when dyno classing a car Greg will put you about 1 point above the max. My guess is he reasons not all cars are capable of reaching the minimum, from my experiance, this is true, and this puts dyno classed cars in the meat of the average field.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong.

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what kind of car do you want to run? if your awd your power/weight should be lower, same if your lightweight. Because these cars make up ground where the typical heavier rwd cars of the class struggle. I got dyno re-classed and found it to be very fair for my car. My re-class put me almost identical to the 08 ttd champ when i would have otherwise been totally out-gunned in ptc. Now i pointed out of ptd anyway but im in a MUCH better position to be competitve than i otherwise would have been.

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what kind of car do you want to run? if your awd your power/weight should be lower, same if your lightweight. Because these cars make up ground where the typical heavier rwd cars of the class struggle. I got dyno re-classed and found it to be very fair for my car. My re-class put me almost identical to the 08 ttd champ when i would have otherwise been totally out-gunned in ptc. Now i pointed out of ptd anyway but im in a MUCH better position to be competitve than i otherwise would have been.

 

2004 STi (which in my mind should start lower than the 05-07's for many reasons). With what I've been presented, my best option would be to pick the 3323 lbs/330 whp limit for a TTA* re-class. That's 10.1:1, which is 51.95 whp or 452 lbs off from the TTA limit of 8.7:1. Yes AWD has it's advantages, but not 50 whp or 450 lbs worth.

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Other than crappy wheel bearings some chassis stiffness issues (which can both be fixed points-free anyway) i dont really know how bad the 04 sti is compared to the 05-07. They are still fast cars. A properly set-up AWD car has an advantage out of nearly every corner. Especially ones with elevation change involved, fast sweepers and super tight hairpins/chicanes where you can still put down power while 2wd cars have to tip-toe through so as to not spin. I think 10:1 is a little off but TT/PT fields are pretty close at nationals so something has to be right. Not to mention you have every rain-day wrapped up without a doubt vs vettes. If not then its not the car. Ryan Gates ran road america this year in a borrowed car in the wet and was running almost the same pace as some of his competitors do in the dry!

 

Besides, why run TTA when you can be almost 100whp more in TTS depending on tire choice? Im building a '05 for a customer in ST2 (TTS's W2W equivalent) that makes about 420 to the wheels. We think this will be an arse kicker of a set-up. Which will be needed seeing as how the TTS champ, ST2 champ and ST2 runner-up all are in the regions we run (MW & GL).

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2004 STi (which in my mind should start lower than the 05-07's for many reasons). With what I've been presented, my best option would be to pick the 3323 lbs/330 whp limit for a TTA* re-class. That's 10.1:1, which is 51.95 whp or 452 lbs off from the TTA limit of 8.7:1. Yes AWD has it's advantages, but not 50 whp or 450 lbs worth.

 

are you factoring your tire sizes? you get a pretty good adjustment bump with those 245's (I think that's what you were running at VIR?)

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Other than crappy wheel bearings some chassis stiffness issues (which can both be fixed points-free anyway) i dont really know how bad the 04 sti is compared to the 05-07. They are still fast cars. A properly set-up AWD car has an advantage out of nearly every corner. Especially ones with elevation change involved, fast sweepers and super tight hairpins/chicanes where you can still put down power while 2wd cars have to tip-toe through so as to not spin. I think 10:1 is a little off but TT/PT fields are pretty close at nationals so something has to be right. Not to mention you have every rain-day wrapped up without a doubt vs vettes. If not then its not the car. Ryan Gates ran road america this year in a borrowed car in the wet and was running almost the same pace as some of his competitors do in the dry!

 

Besides, why run TTA when you can be almost 100whp more in TTS depending on tire choice? Im building a '05 for a customer in ST2 (TTS's W2W equivalent) that makes about 420 to the wheels. We think this will be an arse kicker of a set-up. Which will be needed seeing as how the TTS champ, ST2 champ and ST2 runner-up all are in the regions we run (MW & GL).

Eh, I mean I guess some of its flaws can be cured no points, but not all. Definitely true about in the rain, although I can't remember the last time it rained an entire weekend, let alone an entire track day. All you need is one good session in the dry to wrap things up.

 

TTA is just where my car fits right now. Running TTS would require a huge budget, and downgrading to run TTB would be a pain. I'd like to run the car at Redline events next year as well, and power is basically unlimited in all classes there.

 

are you factoring your tire sizes? you get a pretty good adjustment bump with those 245's (I think that's what you were running at VIR?)

Do you mean for the re-class? If I want to re-class solely off adjusted power/weight then I have to move up to TTS. But yeah, if you throw in my adjustment factor, that 10.1:1 becomes 10.8:1

 

ps - you're the main reason I'm searching for more power in TTA haha.

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ps - you're the main reason I'm searching for more power in TTA haha.

 

I only have the "low po" 385 hp 01 cam (not the higher lift 405 hp cam like the 02-04 C5Zs)

 

When I was behind you guys coming off the corners, I could not maintain the same distance to you. If I tried, I was slideways. I have driven an STi years ago, and they are amazing on corner exit. Like a cat clawing carpet. Awesome.

 

I wish you had some traqmate data, I swapped files with the TTA hotshoe here in the SE (he was there the weekend after us) and he was running 2:09's on 50 something heat cycled R6's But it would be cool to compare your laps w/ the STi, see where the differences lay (corner speeds, braking/speeds on the straights).

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UMMM Dyno classing and hp to weight adj. If I remember right when you dyno class you don't have to take points for engine MODS. It seems in that case a higher hp to weight would be appropriate as you fee up a lot of points for other mods. Of course I could be all wet.

 

Peter

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...and a fair and logical approach to track width increase point assessments.

 

 

Agreed. Thats on the list too.

 

So now the consensus is to not only have suspension purchases in limbo but wheel purchases too?

 

Awesome....

 

Can we mess with the safety rules to so i can hold of on buying all that stuff as well???

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So now the consensus is to not only have suspension purchases in limbo but wheel purchases too?

 

Awesome....

 

Can we mess with the safety rules to so i can hold of on buying all that stuff as well???

 

 

 

If it gives you one more reason to whine/complain, sure, were doing that too for you.

Dont paint your car either, were going to ban some colors as well!

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