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2009 Rules - Items up for review?


kbrew8991

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So now the consensus is to not only have suspension purchases in limbo but wheel purchases too?

 

Awesome....

 

Can we mess with the safety rules to so i can hold of on buying all that stuff as well???

 

 

 

If it gives you one more reason to whine/complain, sure, were doing that too for you.

Dont paint your car either, were going to ban some colors as well!

Cool! As long as you all get it done sooner than later. Considering neon orange for the body. Let me know!

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330 whp on a MUSTANG dyno will keep any TTA C5Z from running with you on the straights.......

 

While I understand they have to allow pretty much all the different dyno's since certain parts of the country may not have a certain type, if you have access to multiple types, tuning on a Mustang just seems like cheating to me. How do they handle dynoing at Nationals? What if a guy who only had access to a Mustang has to put down numbers on a Dyno-jet? He'd be screwed if he tuned right up to his limit on a Mustang.

 

UMMM Dyno classing and hp to weight adj. If I remember right when you dyno class you don't have to take points for engine MODS. It seems in that case a higher hp to weight would be appropriate as you fee up a lot of points for other mods. Of course I could be all wet.

 

Peter

 

If you re-class you are given a simple minimum weight and maximum horsepower limit, and new base class. Adjustment factors aren't counted anymore, but you still do need to take points. When counting up points you no longer worry about points for weight, points for power mods, and if you no longer take the +5 for forced induction if applicable.

 

Alright, I'm going to simplify this so hopefully it'll make more sense. If I could push my stock turbo that far, I could make ~412 whp and still be TTA legal, but my stock turbo just won't go much past 300 unless I'm running an aggressive tune with race gas. I'd like to run a larger turbo so I can run a safe tune on pump gas. With a larger turbo I have the capability to make more power, but why does it have to be limited so much? The highest power/weight limits that Greg gave me were 340 whp but I'd have to weigh a minimum of 3584 lbs, or 340 whp and 3424 lbs with +7 to begin with.

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So now the consensus is to not only have suspension purchases in limbo but wheel purchases too?

 

Awesome....

 

Can we mess with the safety rules to so i can hold of on buying all that stuff as well???

 

 

 

If it gives you one more reason to whine/complain, sure, were doing that too for you.

Dont paint your car either, were going to ban some colors as well!

 

Sweet!

 

(BTW, my sarcasm was tongue-in-cheek)

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Alright, I'm going to simplify this so hopefully it'll make more sense. If I could push my stock turbo that far, I could make ~412 whp and still be TTA legal, but my stock turbo just won't go much past 300 unless I'm running an aggressive tune with race gas. I'd like to run a larger turbo so I can run a safe tune on pump gas. With a larger turbo I have the capability to make more power, but why does it have to be limited so much? The highest power/weight limits that Greg gave me were 340 whp but I'd have to weigh a minimum of 3584 lbs, or 340 whp and 3424 lbs with +7 to begin with.

Because you can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

If I could switch out my turbo or my entire engine and do whatever I wanted - then simply get a reclass why wouldn't everyone do it? You can't have it all.

 

The reason you're wanting to switch out the turbo is to improve your car - and that'll cost you pts. If you wanna do something major like a rebuild or new turbo; you can't get that for free. You're coming out with a much improved powerband afterall.

As for running a pump gas tune - not sure if that'll cut it unfortunately. We get free ECU mods now - and penalized 5 pts for FI. The way I read that is you had better take full use of all the no-points mods! That is, if you wanna be nationally competitive.

As for trying to run 2 series (NASA TT and RTA) with the same build - if you figure that one out; please let me know! I've been working on that one for awhile! The rulesets are just so different, you're going to have to compromise somewhere unfortunately.

 

If you wanna run with the power/weight guys - head to TTS/U/R. Heck, TTS and TTA have the same adjusted limit of 8.7:1

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a car that is towards or at the top of the limit for its hp/weight ratio in TTA and below is likely an ill-handling, ill-braking, POS. If you're close to that limit and have an overall well balanced car you're probably sitting prettier than you think.

 

There is alot more to laptime than horsepower and weight - handling and braking do count. There is also this thing called driving skill, if anyone finds some extra please send it my way

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Because you can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

If I could switch out my turbo or my entire engine and do whatever I wanted - then simply get a reclass why wouldn't everyone do it? You can't have it all.

 

The reason you're wanting to switch out the turbo is to improve your car - and that'll cost you pts. If you wanna do something major like a rebuild or new turbo; you can't get that for free. You're coming out with a much improved powerband afterall.

As for running a pump gas tune - not sure if that'll cut it unfortunately. We get free ECU mods now - and penalized 5 pts for FI. The way I read that is you had better take full use of all the no-points mods! That is, if you wanna be nationally competitive.

As for trying to run 2 series (NASA TT and RTA) with the same build - if you figure that one out; please let me know! I've been working on that one for awhile! The rulesets are just so different, you're going to have to compromise somewhere unfortunately.

 

If you wanna run with the power/weight guys - head to TTS/U/R. Heck, TTS and TTA have the same adjusted limit of 8.7:1

 

Well said. Also, I can pretty much guarantee that you will not see any STi or STI with 412 awhp in TTA. If it should happen "somehow", then there will be a change in the base classes again (that will end up screwing the guys that are just trying to take their relatively stock STi's and Evo's out for competition in TTB or TTA). 412 awhp = about 550+ hp to the crank. 330 awhp = about 440+ hp to the crank. But, if one is in a region where only the Mustang Dyno is available, it would be more like 630 hp to the crank for 412 awhp. One thing we may be doing this year, is trying to adjust for the Mustang Dyno issue. Look, as I said before, if you want to run the big hp, then TTS is the place to do it. If you want to run in Time Attacks, then you will NEED the big hp. The guys that I have seen run the STi or Evo with the Dyno re-classing in TTA have been competitive. The guys that I have seen run their STi or Evo using the points method have been competitive as well. I've seen a TTU STI do extremely well (just didn't come to Nationals). I've seen one in TTR a few months ago beat our National Champion TTR/SU car by a few seconds at Cal Speedway.

 

There is certainly no guarantee that every car model will be competitive in every class. In fact, most of us that have been around for awhile have found that most car models can be made very competitive. However, it starts with choosing the correct class to do it in, followed by using points wisely to make real performance gains, sometimes removing previous "street" mods that cost points that are not worth the gains, using as many No-Points mods as possible if they provide a performance advantage, and then matching the correct tires to the car. Lastly, it still comes down to being the best driver in many cases. Regardless of the car that one ends up building, if I can find a driver who can get in it and run 2-3 seconds a lap faster (equal to about a one class bump), then the problem isn't the rules or the re-classes. Similarly, if we can find a similar car, with the same power levels and points usage, but different suspension/tire setup, and that car is 2 seconds faster, then the problem isn't the rules.

 

NASA has found that many late model AWD's have a significant advantage over every other model out there in the lower (TTA-TTD) horsepower ranges. We think that the advantage decreases when modifications become less limited and tire size and type become open (TTS-TTR). That is why AWD's tend to take a bigger hit on the power levels in the lower classes than in the upper classes. Many of those late model AWD's were purposely built to be "track" or "race" or "rally" cars from the factory. It takes a huge amount of points for a purpose built "rental" or "family" car to catch up in handling--well, at least try to catch up.

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Well said. Also, I can pretty much guarantee that you will not see any STi or STI with 412 awhp in TTA. If it should happen "somehow", then there will be a change in the base classes again (that will end up screwing the guys that are just trying to take their relatively stock STi's and Evo's out for competition in TTB or TTA). 412 awhp = about 550+ hp to the crank. 330 awhp = about 440+ hp to the crank. But, if one is in a region where only the Mustang Dyno is available, it would be more like 630 hp to the crank for 412 awhp. One thing we may be doing this year, is trying to adjust for the Mustang Dyno issue. Look, as I said before, if you want to run the big hp, then TTS is the place to do it. If you want to run in Time Attacks, then you will NEED the big hp. The guys that I have seen run the STi or Evo with the Dyno re-classing in TTA have been competitive. The guys that I have seen run their STi or Evo using the points method have been competitive as well. I've seen a TTU STI do extremely well (just didn't come to Nationals). I've seen one in TTR a few months ago beat our National Champion TTR/SU car by a few seconds at Cal Speedway.

 

There is certainly no guarantee that every car model will be competitive in every class. In fact, most of us that have been around for awhile have found that most car models can be made very competitive. However, it starts with choosing the correct class to do it in, followed by using points wisely to make real performance gains, sometimes removing previous "street" mods that cost points that are not worth the gains, using as many No-Points mods as possible if they provide a performance advantage, and then matching the correct tires to the car. Lastly, it still comes down to being the best driver in many cases. Regardless of the car that one ends up building, if I can find a driver who can get in it and run 2-3 seconds a lap faster (equal to about a one class bump), then the problem isn't the rules or the re-classes. Similarly, if we can find a similar car, with the same power levels and points usage, but different suspension/tire setup, and that car is 2 seconds faster, then the problem isn't the rules.

 

NASA has found that many late model AWD's have a significant advantage over every other model out there in the lower (TTA-TTD) horsepower ranges. We think that the advantage decreases when modifications become less limited and tire size and type become open (TTS-TTR). That is why AWD's tend to take a bigger hit on the power levels in the lower classes than in the upper classes. Many of those late model AWD's were purposely built to be "track" or "race" or "rally" cars from the factory. It takes a huge amount of points for a purpose built "rental" or "family" car to catch up in handling--well, at least try to catch up.

 

It's basically impossible for an STi to make that power on a stock turbo, but what about Evo's? The Evo9 turbo is capable of pretty crazy numbers on e85, example:

http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-dyno-tuning-results/456319-nothing-like-little-e85.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

I count +12 in power mods there, leaving 27 points to play with suspension, tires, aero, etc. Going off the "Mustang dyno's read about 20% lower than Dyno-Jets" that's about 438 awhp right there. Should the Evo's base classes be reconsidered?

 

I don't see how "TTS is the place to run big power" when it has the same power/weight limit as TTA.

 

I don't really have any "street mods" on my car, and I've already done a lot of what I can when it comes to no-points mods.

 

Again, I understand that AWD has an advantage, but not over 50 whp or 450 lbs worth.

 

I should have just started with an Evo

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except that since there aren't points limits you can actually reach it (if I am understanding your situation correctly). TTS is also much more open in terms of suspension, aero, yadda, yadda might be a better place for a RTA car??

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I don't see how "TTS is the place to run big power" when it has the same power/weight limit as TTA.

 

That limit is really a "final check" to make sure that a car is not excessively over-powered for the class. The basis of classing a TTA car is still by points and base class. Yes, I realize that there is a specific car model that does seem to be able to reach that limit w/o a problem, and tends to do well in the class. However, that car is also limited to running tire sizes that most of the drivers would not choose to run normally, and essentially no other (points) mods. If you look at all of the TT/PT classes, it is much more common to find the winning cars not running at the Adjusted Wt/Hp limit of those classes. Perhaps you should be lobbying for a certain car model to have it's base class raised instead? Easy, Jeff and others...not in the works for this year. As far as I can tell, with the three top PTA cars (not Corvettes) at Miller having lap times better than the top TTA car (Corvette), there is no need for a change right now.

 

So TTS is the place to run big power. An AWD car, with suspension mods (or built to be a race car on the street), and big sticky R compounds will not be allowed to run at 8.7:1 in TTA--that is essentially a TTS car.

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If you

330 whp on a MUSTANG dyno will keep any TTA C5Z from running with you on the straights.......

 

While I understand they have to allow pretty much all the different dyno's since certain parts of the country may not have a certain type, if you have access to multiple types, tuning on a Mustang just seems like cheating to me. How do they handle dynoing at Nationals? What if a guy who only had access to a Mustang has to put down numbers on a Dyno-jet? He'd be screwed if he tuned right up to his limit on a Mustang.

 

 

Thats why there is a clause for awd cars needing to be compliant on all dynos

 

UMMM Dyno classing and hp to weight adj. If I remember right when you dyno class you don't have to take points for engine MODS. It seems in that case a higher hp to weight would be appropriate as you fee up a lot of points for other mods. Of course I could be all wet.

 

Peter

 

If you re-class you are given a simple minimum weight and maximum horsepower limit, and new base class. Adjustment factors aren't counted anymore, but you still do need to take points. When counting up points you no longer worry about points for weight, points for power mods, and if you no longer take the +5 for forced induction if applicable.

 

Alright, I'm going to simplify this so hopefully it'll make more sense. If I could push my stock turbo that far, I could make ~412 whp and still be TTA legal, but my stock turbo just won't go much past 300 unless I'm running an aggressive tune with race gas. I'd like to run a larger turbo so I can run a safe tune on pump gas. With a larger turbo I have the capability to make more power, but why does it have to be limited so much? The highest power/weight limits that Greg gave me were 340 whp but I'd have to weigh a minimum of 3584 lbs, or 340 whp and 3424 lbs with +7 to begin with.

 

If you can make that kind of power with race gas and an aggressive tune, thats amazing. What you basically are saying is that "I know how to make my car THE wringer of the class, but am choosing not to." At that point you are choosing the slower path and thats not the rules being unfair.

 

Trying to make a double duty car for RTA depending on what class your in should be a matter of keeping your interior and changing your tires. A TTS car would be pretty good with some street tires on it in Street AWD, and a TTU car with some of the less sticky R-Comps and most of the interior gone would be a good Mod AWD car since you need something with 50 or higher treadwear rating (obviously excluding the BFG's).

 

 

Greg im trying to decide on my shocks and what color to paint my car so your grounded from forums till i have some dern rules to look at!

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Greg im trying to decide on my shocks and what color to paint my car so your grounded from forums till i have some dern rules to look at!

 

 

Dont paint it THAT color........!

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If you can make that kind of power with race gas and an aggressive tune, thats amazing. What you basically are saying is that "I know how to make my car THE wringer of the class, but am choosing not to." At that point you are choosing the slower path and thats not the rules being unfair.

 

Trying to make a double duty car for RTA depending on what class your in should be a matter of keeping your interior and changing your tires. A TTS car would be pretty good with some street tires on it in Street AWD, and a TTU car with some of the less sticky R-Comps and most of the interior gone would be a good Mod AWD car since you need something with 50 or higher treadwear rating (obviously excluding the BFG's).

 

What's amazing, making 330whp? I mean I could probably make it happen but it wouldn't be a tune worthy of driving the car on a road course with. I'm not at all saying I know how to make my car a wringer, it'd still be far from it. A good example of a wringer in the class is Mark's (drivinhardz06) C5Z06. He's dropped some weight, couple power adders and he's running right at 8.7:1 with 275's. All I want is to try to get close to a 8.7:1 ratio because that's the class limit.

 

I can see I'm not really getting anywhere, so I'll quit clogging this thread.

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A good example of a wringer in the class is Mark's (drivinhardz06) C5Z06. He's dropped some weight, couple power adders and he's running right at 8.7:1 with 275's. All I want is to try to get close to a 8.7:1 ratio because that's the class limit.

 

Working it backwards (ie, with your current weight, and adjustment factors (tire size, 4 door, AWD), how much hp can you run?

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A good example of a wringer in the class is Mark's (drivinhardz06) C5Z06. He's dropped some weight, couple power adders and he's running right at 8.7:1 with 275's. All I want is to try to get close to a 8.7:1 ratio because that's the class limit.

 

Working it backwards (ie, with your current weight, and adjustment factors (tire size, 4 door, AWD), how much hp can you run?

 

I usually weigh around 3350lbs, but we'll call it 3300lbs, so that would make my adjustment factor 0.75

 

3300lbs / (8.7-0.75) = 415.09 whp

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A good example of a wringer in the class is Mark's (drivinhardz06) C5Z06. He's dropped some weight, couple power adders and he's running right at 8.7:1 with 275's. All I want is to try to get close to a 8.7:1 ratio because that's the class limit.

 

Working it backwards (ie, with your current weight, and adjustment factors (tire size, 4 door, AWD), how much hp can you run?

 

I usually weigh around 3350lbs, but we'll call it 3300lbs, so that would make my adjustment factor 0.75

 

3300lbs / (8.7-0.75) = 415.09 whp

I believe you said you drive an 04 STi? If so, the min weight is 3260. I highly suggest you try to get down near that to 'max out'. Like I said before, take every effort to take advantage of the no points mods. If you shave off that extra 100 lbs; that's probably another second you can pick up on a 2mile track.

 

Using the same calcs I do for my car - AWD and 4-door - I have the following for you for TTA limits:

 

408whp - 245 max tire

381whp - 275 max tire

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Using the same calcs I do for my car - AWD and 4-door - I have the following for you for TTA limits:

 

408whp - 245 max tire

381whp - 275 max tire

 

and so the crux is (for justin), you are saying that in order to get 408 whp, you need a bigger turbo, which costs you points that put you out of TTA?

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Using the same calcs I do for my car - AWD and 4-door - I have the following for you for TTA limits:

 

408whp - 245 max tire

381whp - 275 max tire

 

and so the crux is (for justin), you are saying that in order to get 408 whp, you need a bigger turbo, which costs you points that put you out of TTA?

bigger turbo forces an automatic reclass by Greg - probably to SUR

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A 381 whp STi on 275's would be a mighty fast car.

 

I think some traqmate data would be really helpful in subjects like this. For instance, the sector time from power on off oak tree to the braking point. I would love to compare to yours. That's all hp, no real driver talent in the way, straight drag race. (ie good way to compare hardware performance, without the driver). you and the other STi didn't seem that much slower in a straight line, but the data would say for sure.

 

And I would agree on getting to min weight (if possible, I know you drive that on the street to, which makes it harder)

 

at the end of the day, I think even for TT, if you want to run at the front, I think it's pretty much gotta be a no compromise track car! you will leave a lot of the table as car that can do double duty. And the trailer thing is nice, I usually pull the tire trailer, at VIR I had a friend's trailer as the family came with me. It's the best mod, when you toss it into the esses on the absolute limit, you aren't thinking about trashing your transportation home. (and I recently bought a trailer, it's worth at least 1/2 second

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and so the crux is (for justin), you are saying that in order to get 408 whp, you need a bigger turbo, which costs you points that put you out of TTA?

The crux is if I run that bigger turbo, I have to chose from a custom list of power/weight limits that are all basically 10:1 due to the AWD being so superior:

 

NASA has found that many late model AWD's have a significant advantage over every other model out there in the lower (TTA-TTD) horsepower ranges. That is why AWD's tend to take a bigger hit on the power levels in the lower classes than in the upper classes.

I don't see how the AWD can have such an advantage. Looking at the modification factors, the fact that my car is AWD is almost canceled out due to the car having 4 doors...

 

I know I said I'd stop, but I have a couple legit questions/suggestions:

 

It didn't get answered earlier, and I'd honestly like to know, who crunches the numbers to determine what power/weight limit I have to run if I re-class? In an email from Greg he stated "Below are some options for TTA and TTA* base classing that I calculated in the past that would apply to your '04 STi.

315awhp = 3320

315awhp* = 3172

 

320awhp = 3373

320awhp*= 3223

 

325awhp = 3426

325awhp* = 3273

 

330awhp = 3479

330awhp* = 3323

 

335awhp = 3531

335awhp* = 3374

 

340awhp = 3584

340awhp* = 3424"

 

Does that mean he does it all on his own?

 

Another thing, why can't all these custom re-class numbers be put in the rules somewhere? Can that be changed for next year?

 

A 381 whp STi on 275's would be a mighty fast car.

Yep, sure sounds fast, but not do-able on an STi, Evo9 could pull that off easily running e85 though.

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Justin, looking at the classification form there are a lot of no-points mods that you haven't done yet to increase power/reduce weight (mostly the latter). Just try to think outside the box. The unfortunate truth is that some of the things you can do to make the car more competitive will also make it a crappy street car, but that's the nature of the sport.

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If AWD isn't an advantage then why would you buy an STI? You can always convert it to RWD and shed all that excess weight, and "no advantage" of having the AWD.

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Agreed. Thats on the list too.
Is this "list" of items under consideration published anywhere?

Tom, the list has about 60 items on it. It is compiled from all of the e-mail requests that we get over the year from TT and PT Directors and drivers, as well as the issues that we have determined to either be current or potential future problems. I have about 175 e-mails this past year that are getting reviewed and the issues researched. While it is nice to see the discussions on these threads, the PT and TT Rules are just too complex for a national forum debate on most issues. If you have any issues that you want to be thrown into the mix before final decisions are made, you should e-mail me by tomorrow. We are going to try and hammer out most of the issues in question this weekend if possible.

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Also, obviously, having 60 or more items to address does not mean that we will have anywhere close to 60 rule changes. Some of them just require the addition of a single word into a rule-set for clarity, but don't make an actual change. Most will be reviewed, researched, and thrown out for one of a dozen reasons.

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