kbrew8991 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 good point - KB, who has been pushing for a rollbar requirement... I'm still waiting for you to point out: a.) what a full race car actually entails and b.) why its such a gigantic advantage as to outright ban them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxer12 Posted November 4, 2009 Author Share Posted November 4, 2009 good point - KB, who has been pushing for a rollbar requirement... I'm still waiting for you to point out: a.) what a full race car actually entails and b.) why its such a gigantic advantage as to outright ban them a) Its hard to define a 'race car', so I took a common element, which is a cage. b) I never said it was an 'advantage.' You don't go fast by divebombing, blocking, and aggressive driving. There is also nothing wrong with these 'talents' in an appropriate forum, ie., racing. Racers bring these talents with them to TT, its only natural. I feel it elevates the risk for everyone. Its a safety issue, not a competition issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Sounds to me more like the issue is that of driver behavior which can be dealt with using existing provisions in the rules. If you have people making unsafe passes, well, there's a section on that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 - KB, who has been pushing for a rollbar requirement... Just because a car has a roll bar doesn't mean that it's safe. Case in point from a thread on Corner-Carvers.com: This car had an Autopower bolt-in 4-point roll bar. Note that the main hoop has punched through the floorpan. Driver and passenger were allegedly fine, but we're still not sure how they managed to be. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Sounds to me more like the issue is that of driver behavior which can be dealt with using existing provisions in the rules. If you have people making unsafe passes, well, there's a section on that... I'm still trying to figure out what the OP is trying to say. It started with putting cages in street cars, now it's about divebomb passing. It's always best to present your statement in a prepared manner in order to maximize the quality of the responses. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 re- rollbar requirement - yeah Mark there is only so much you can do, you'll always have some jacknut install something incorrectly or install something just to squeak by .. its catchable in tech and in what you specify in the ruleset though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 From what I have read of the rules, the bolt-in bars are typically installed per the rules (or maybe the rules are written per the way the bolt-in bars are typically installed), so it's not a matter of an installation error. My point is that a simple bolt-in roll bar, as shown in the example, won't do much to save you and isn't likely worth the minimal amount of effort for installation. Trusting a single layer of 18 or 20 gauge floorpan sheetmetal to support the weight of a car is a mistake. Mark (in the process of building a cage) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 most of us don't drive '79 Fairmonts in fancy clothes. It depends on what you read, but from what I saw those were very small backing plates (easy to write a rule for) attaching to a very poor area of the car (easy to write a rule for)... you see where I'm going here - KB, already has a cage so oops, does this mean I'm banned from TT now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I'm still trying to figure out what the OP is trying to say. It started with putting cages in street cars, now it's about divebomb passing. It's always best to present your statement in a prepared manner in order to maximize the quality of the responses.I read it as "A guy in a race car was faster than me and drove like a tool so I want them all banned!" In other words, "Wah!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundguydave Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Didn't this used to be a competition format for street cars, as an entry point leading to full W2W licensing? When you have street cars competing with gutted and caged cars carrying ballast to make weight, there will be a lack of parity. I think that's where the OP is getting his knickers in a twist. Like most other street cars, he won't be able to make minimum weight, and with the limits on power, it becomes difficult to compete against a chassis that's hundreds of pounds lighter but making the same power. Personally, I enjoy the fact that I drive to and from the track (I know, I'm a masochist), and I'm a mid- to rear-pack driver anyway, while I get my car all sorted out, so it's no skin off my nose. Who knows, maybe I'll show up one day with a gutted and caged car on the back of a trailer and finally be competitive. As for the "driving like a tool" bit, yeah, that will happen, since the mindset between the W2W and TT concept is so radically different. It's up to the TT Director (and/or Competition Director) to remind the drivers to have the right hat on when they get to grid. I've seen passes in W2W that were termed "epic," and "outstanding," that would get a TT driver DQ'd for the session for a wide variety of reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Great idea Boxer12. Ban race cars , attendance falls in half , Jerry's smiles toward you as funds plummet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxer12 Posted November 4, 2009 Author Share Posted November 4, 2009 (edited) Great idea Boxer12. Ban race cars , attendance falls in half , Jerry's smiles toward you as funds plummet. Personally, I think a lot more of the HPDE guys would do TT if it weren't for fear of getting on the track with someone like this (I use an example out of my region, so there is nothing personal to these guys)... None of my friends with high end sports cars want to risk a collision. Would guys like Team Tapped drive like that if they didn't have a cage and all the safety equip? Maybe, I don't know, but I doubt it if they had an ounce of sense in their brains. I'm not judging them, I just think they should stay are more well suited to the race group. Am I afraid of them? Yes. Has it kept me off the track? No. I do more events than anyone in my region. Can I afford a dedicated track car? Yes. I am just making an observation that I think is for the 'good of the sport.' Besides, everyone with a dedicated race car has a street car in the garage they can pull out if they want to run TT, right? This has nothing to do with competition. I am in the region with Danny. Danny will still win Nats and he will just do it in a Z06 without a cage. The overly aggressive drivers will get their kicks (and have their shunts) in the races, (where Danny will beat them in a caged car). PS-I apologize to Team Tapped for making an example of them. Please don't take it personal. I am sure you are great guys, and there was no dive bombing, blocking or other unsportsmanlike conduct in that video, just awesome driving (if a little over the top if you were in a street car sans cage!). Edited November 4, 2009 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Sounds like you have a personnel problem, not an equipment problem. I want to see more caged cars on track, because doing this without a cage is on the wrong side of the crazy/brave line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxer12 Posted November 4, 2009 Author Share Posted November 4, 2009 (edited) Sounds like you have a personnel problem, not an equipment problem. I want to see more caged cars on track, because doing this without a cage is on the wrong side of the crazy/brave line. I think your icon says it all about your 'self image.' The cage makes you feel invincible, doesn't it? Exactly my point. PS- I think you meant "personal" note "personnel". I can't believe everyone is taking this so personal. Its just a suggested rule change. Why aren't racers satisfied with 'racing.' If your car has a cage, go race. Enjoy! Edited November 4, 2009 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 1. I don't have a cage. 2. My icon is coffee drinking bum. The forum assigns the superman icon to post-whores. Like me. 3. No, I meant exactly personnel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxer12 Posted November 4, 2009 Author Share Posted November 4, 2009 1. I don't have a cage.2. My icon is coffee drinking bum. The forum assigns the superman icon to post-whores. Like me. 3. No, I meant exactly personnel. Ah, thanks for clarifying. Maybe its the coffee we need to ban! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted November 4, 2009 Members Share Posted November 4, 2009 That's an impressive video, and that car is very capable. So what you are saying is that in a car like that, in a series where you are vying for the fastest laptime, you'll drive slower even though you aren't the fastest laptime if you don't have a cage? I find that hard to believe, I think you'll find that drivers will always increase their speeds to outrun a competitor - safety gear or not. Quite honestly, whenever a driver in the SE TT program starts to reach those speeds we usually have a talk about his/her life and safety, sooner or later they'll see someone have an off that will wake them up to what can happen quickly at those speeds. You will never see me criticize anyone who has more safety gear than the rules require. BTW - we have a few racers that drive their cars to the track, sometimes with a tire trailer behind them to carry their race tires on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drivinhardz06 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 2. My icon is jack daniels drinking bum. fixed it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drivinhardz06 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 vipers crash great, you should be fine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I think you'll find that drivers will always increase their speeds to outrun a competitor - Exactly. You should slow Mark down for my safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nasaregistrar Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Personally, I think a lot more of the HPDE guys would do TT if it weren't for fear of getting on the track with someone like this (I use an example out of my region, so there is nothing personal to these guys)... None of my friends with high end sports cars want to risk a collision. Would guys like Team Tapped drive like that if they didn't have a cage and all the safety equip? Maybe, I don't know, but I doubt it if they had an ounce of sense in their brains. I'm not judging them, I just think they should stay are more well suited to the race group. Well there is nothing to hit.... Try that at Summit or the Glenn or VIR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted November 4, 2009 Members Share Posted November 4, 2009 vipers crash great, you should be fine! " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I was there for that - all you could see was the bottom of the viper in the tops of the trees...it was wild! That car was hauling arse! Of course there is nothing left of it now... Try that at Summit or the Glenn or VIR Or Road Atlanta... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor57 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 None of my friends with high end sports cars want to risk a collision. Would guys like Team Tapped drive like that if they didn't have a cage and all the safety equip? Maybe, I don't know, but I doubt it if they had an ounce of sense in their brains. I'm not judging them, I just think they should stay are more well suited to the race group. Am I afraid of them? Yes. Maybe stick to HPDE. (Or knitting?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tirewarmer Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Otherwise, I am going to have to put in a cage, and won't be able to drive my car on the street anymore. That would make me sad. Back to the original point, a cage has no impact on competition performance. Cars that are driven to a TT beat cars that are trailered in all the time. I won TTE on a Sunday and drove my car to work on that following Monday. My car was faster before I added an addition ~50 lbs of cage to the exisiting ~50 lb rollbar. Kick me out of TT because I like breathing after I hit something? TT lets you modify your car however you please as long as you take points for what you do. There is no race car/street car differentiation here. If a "race car" wins, I doubt it is because of reduced polar moment due to the car being gutted and carrying ballast in the center. Better setup and better drivers win. You can setup your street car however you'd like to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Great idea Boxer12. Ban race cars , attendance falls in half , Jerry's smiles toward you as funds plummet. Personally, I think a lot more of the HPDE guys would do TT if it weren't for fear of getting on the track with someone like this (I use an example out of my region, so there is nothing personal to these guys)... And thats all on your regional TT director - if they aren't setting the right tone to dial people back to the proper level then there is no amount of banning this part and that part that will make a damned bit of difference. None of my friends with high end sports cars want to risk a collision. Would guys like Team Tapped drive like that if they didn't have a cage and all the safety equip? Maybe, I don't know, but I doubt it if they had an ounce of sense in their brains. I'm not judging them, I just think they should stay are more well suited to the race group. Your friends would find other excuses. Within the TT format there is plenty of chances to get yourself spaced out and find a clean section of track to play with. If they don't like getting passed they could always stay in HPDE3 or so and never give a point by Am I afraid of them? Yes. Has it kept me off the track? No. I do more events than anyone in my region. Can I afford a dedicated track car? Yes. I am just making an observation that I think is for the 'good of the sport.' Besides, everyone with a dedicated race car has a street car in the garage they can pull out if they want to run TT, right? easy there Mr. Moneybags, no.. not everyone can have two "play" cars. I own my old slow 1994 "race" car, and my 2008 Tundra I use to tow it. Period. And yes you sure do sound afraid of them suggesting this kind of change... unreasonably afraid of them. Sounds like HPDE might be more your flavor quite honestly. This has nothing to do with competition. I am in the region with Danny. Danny will still win Nats and he will just do it in a Z06 without a cage. The overly aggressive drivers will get their kicks (and have their shunts) in the races, (where Danny will beat them in a caged car). Racing is a totally different discipline, I use TT as much as a test bed to gauge car and driver improvements as anything... racing does not provide that opportunity. There is also some excitement in not really knowing until times are posted if you beat your buddy or not. Why are you trying to shut people away from this? PS-I apologize to Team Tapped for making an example of them. Please don't take it personal. I am sure you are great guys, and there was no dive bombing, blocking or other unsportsmanlike conduct in that video, just awesome driving (if a little over the top if you were in a street car sans cage!). you owe an apology to more than just them... Sounds like you have a personnel problem, not an equipment problem. I want to see more caged cars on track, because doing this without a cage is on the wrong side of the crazy/brave line. I think your icon says it all about your 'self image.' The cage makes you feel invincible, doesn't it? Exactly my point. No, it doesnt... crashing would still put me out for the season so you'll see me taking exactly zero extra chances... I can't believe everyone is taking this so personal. Its just a suggested rule change. Why aren't racers satisfied with 'racing.' If your car has a cage, go race. Enjoy! gee, I dunno why anyone would get up in arms over a suggestion that would boot them from Time Trials simply for having a roll cage for a bit of extra personal protection. That is pretty unreasonable of them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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