bluebandit48 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Building a new 331, car had a fuel injection system in it but would need to get upgraded to make the numbers i want. i know it would be easyer to slap a carb on it, but im trying to figure out if it would be worth it to try and keep the injection. let me know what you guys think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Building a new 331, car had a fuel injection system in it but would need to get upgraded to make the numbers i want. i know it would be easyer to slap a carb on it, but im trying to figure out if it would be worth it to try and keep the injection. let me know what you guys think. I think it's all a matter of personal preference. I didn't have good luck with fuel injection and my carb setup has been super reliable (except when someone over torqued it). Think about the rest of the fuel system too. Will you need a new pump, regulator, etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holster Maker Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Carb motor is one word, Simplicity! I love them. I have raced with them and without them and always go back to them. Carb motor requires no computers= No fancy instruments to determine faults. Requires a lot less vacuum lines to have problems with. Requires a lot less electrical lines. Requires no sensors, other than oil pressure/etc. Is lighter by 30-40 lbs. Is easier to work around. This is BIG for me. Has equal hp/tq w/more fuel use. Is effected by temp/altitude changes more. However, learn your jetting/use EGT. Requires a diff fuel delivery system, but is easy to do and repair/service. Requires a diff dist. Coil is okay. Plug wires okay. EFI motors are very efficient, however a lot of stuff to go wrong and hard to figure out what's wrong. Seems when it happens, no one has a diagnostic pc handy. I once had a vacuum line come off and it took weeks to find this gremlin. Everybody looked, sprayed everything imaginable and finally one day I found it. Anyway, my feelings. Sounds like a Ford motor, if so go to sbftech site, they have a carb-swap detailed. Like Nape said, Preference! Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted November 10, 2009 Members Share Posted November 10, 2009 I'm a child of the video game age. I dont even know what a power valve or jet needle look like. I couldnt tell you which screw does what or why on a carb. I can use a voltmeter though, and I can follow a wiring diagram. To me the learning curve for injection was both shorter and much less steep. That said, my motor is essentially stock. I've never had to play fuel and ignition curves, though I suspect if I did I'd be more comfortable doing that using a laptop than a box full of little parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron B Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Put a dang carb on that thing and let's go racing! that's the way Grandpa did it, that's the way Dad did and it's worked pretty well so far...stop arguing with the old man, carb it and drive it!- Go fast Take chances Don't crash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 hmmm, I only have one vacuum line on my Mod motor....? if you want simple, mods are the way to go with a laptop sitting in your lap. No distributors to mess with, no spark plug wires and no rocker arms to break or adjust. More simple than a SBC! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBR Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Carb- simple, cheap, light FI- easily tune-able, consistent, precise You pick. I've had 850 hp alcohol motors with carbs and our AI motor with FI. For our AI car, I prefer injection. We can run to the dyno, reflash the chip and add 30 hp, clean up the fuel curve and set max timing. All without pulling the hood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted November 10, 2009 Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 i gotta argue with the old man.. thats what kids do! i wouldnt mind going mod motor but i am already up to my eyes in 302 parts. my game plan i think is if the fuel injection fits on the new heads i will keep it, if not, im going carb. aaron, i need to take a look at your car for some helpful hints... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 The best reason to choose a carb over EFI for a mild application like an AI engine is cost. You probably won't be able to use a single stock EFI part off your car except the computer. Add up what a new MAF, injectors, throttle body, intake manifold, and tuning chip cost and compare that to even a trick tuned up Holley and you will probably have $1500 left over. But screw carb vs. EFI, what ever possessed you to switch to AI? Let me guess, you figured it would be easy to bolt on an extra 80hp and that would get you most of the way there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 But screw carb vs. EFI, what ever possessed you to switch to AI? Let me guess, you figured it would be easy to bolt on an extra 80hp and that would get you most of the way there... well AI was my goal.. and because i ended up running by myself last year.. GL just dosnt have the car count in CMC.. i think i will have a little more fun in AI. Robin seems to think not because he dosnt want to see his old CMC car spank him point and squirt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 and i was sick of the Craig Capaldi in his spec focus saying he is only a second behind and has 4 less cylinders.. lots more money for AI but im just gonna take it one step at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 well AI was my goal.. and because i ended up running by myself last year.. GL just dosnt have the car count in CMC.. i think i will have a little more fun in AI. Robin seems to think not because he dosnt want to see his old CMC car spank him point and squirt If you've got Robin's knowledge on tap, use it. That guy knows how to setup a Mustang without spending the college fund. I can't wait for the Crossovers next year, we'll have 10-15 AI cars if everyone shows up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Building a new 331, car had a fuel injection system in it but would need to get upgraded to make the numbers i want. i know it would be easyer to slap a carb on it, but im trying to figure out if it would be worth it to try and keep the injection. let me know what you guys think. OK, I am going back to your original statement here....can you explain why about the part in bold? I have seen 1000's of highly modded mustangs, N/A and Forced Induction use the stock ford A9L for all sorts of applications. A $500 chip/dyno tune and put whatever you want under the hood with correct injectors ($100 to 200 used on craigslist) and a hot coil and drive it home.....? am I missing something here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 yeah i kind of have it on tap.. its gotten to the point where he is ignoring my phone calls now.. so i just call from different phones sounds like to me i think i will be putting in a carb. for those who have carbs.. i plan on removing all the stock wire harness and making my own.. wiring is kinda my pet peeve.. stock fuel injection fuel pump too much for a carb? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 Building a new 331, car had a fuel injection system in it but would need to get upgraded to make the numbers i want. i know it would be easyer to slap a carb on it, but im trying to figure out if it would be worth it to try and keep the injection. let me know what you guys think. OK, I am going back to your original statement here....can you explain why about the part in bold? I have seen 1000's of highly modded mustangs, N/A and Forced Induction use the stock ford A9L for all sorts of applications. A $500 chip/dyno tune and put whatever you want under the hood with correct injectors ($100 to 200 used on craigslist) and a hot coil and drive it home.....? am I missing something here? this is part of my problem.. i have a carb that would work.. and it would be cheaper to buy a manifold than new injectors and a tune.. so this is why i am trying to figure out which way to go and im not sure if my current FI intake will work with the heads i aquired.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 am I missing something here? Probably a MAF, throttle body, and fuel pump for starters, depending on the HP he's shooting for. If we are talking cheap, you can buy a carb and intake that will support 450+ hp for 250 bucks on eBay so it's hard to argue that EFI is cheaper and simpler than a carb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 But screw carb vs. EFI, what ever possessed you to switch to AI? Let me guess, you figured it would be easy to bolt on an extra 80hp and that would get you most of the way there... Bluebandit, Matt is dead on. Unless you drop a MM or Griggs suspension under that thing and add some aero, you are going to be midpack or worse. Have you also not been paying attention to all the emails and threads that Bryan White has been sending out about the growth of CMC? If you would have got off your ass and raced with the Midwest guys at Autobahn, Putnum, & Gingerman you wouldn't have been racing by yourself. Put your 302 back together, run CMC crossovers and do some of the East Coast Challenge stuff and you'll see what CMC is really all about. Here's a prediction...we'll have more CMC cars at the crossovers then AI. Sidney Franklin CMC #64 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 am I missing something here? Probably a MAF, throttle body, and fuel pump for starters, depending on the HP he's shooting for. If we are talking cheap, you can buy a carb and intake that will support 450+ hp for 250 bucks on eBay so it's hard to argue that EFI is cheaper and simpler than a carb. Ok, so throw a set of used injectors on your EFI list and you might be spending 300 bucks? tunes are really required on A9L's but it would be much better than dealing with carb issues at the track when it runs the bowl dry in corners and runs like pooo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 MFW, How about giving Mr. Bluebandit a parts list from your car as it competed at the past Nationals so he knows what's needed to take CMC Fox/SN95 to be competitive. Maybe that will help him decide between a Carb & FI!!! Sidney CMC #64 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Ok, so throw a set of used injectors on your EFI list and you might be spending 300 bucks? tunes are really required on A9L's but it would be much better than dealing with carb issues at the track when it runs the bowl dry in corners and runs like pooo. That's either bad floats or the floats aren't set right. It's a 15 minute fix to change the floats once you buy them. Carbs aren't the voodoo that everyone thinks. All you have to get right is float levels and jetting, nothing else matters if you're always at WOT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 MFW, How about giving Mr. Bluebandit a parts list from your car as it competed at the past Nationals so he knows what's needed to take CMC Fox/SN95 to be competitive. Maybe that will help him decide between a Carb & FI!!! Sidney CMC #64 Geez Sidney....don't want to scare the man! But, if you want to really know: 2000 Cobra R brembos front, stock cobra rears. MM full catalog of parts and racecraft drop spindles. Koni DA's on front, bilstein race valves from MM light $250 ea. wheels, fresh tires. 3070 post race weight with 100lbs of ballast on board, lexan and lots of grinder wheels used. Rear wing of your choice and sufficient mounting, budget $2k. Front aero is home grown from scrap metal and a sheet of 1/4" plastic, about $400 in parts overall, plastic was $200 of that. driveline is a lincoln mark 8 shortblock, with stock 2V heads and $600 cams(cheaper used), longtubes and no mufflers to save money/weight, have deal with local tuner for cheap tunes/dynos. warrantied take out T56 from an 03 cobra and driveshaft...eaton diff. stock computer, stock wiring harness, stock ignition, Home Depot intake tubing and a lightning MAF off ebay, 30lb injectors I got for $100. there's obviously more to it but that is the general gist. no car cost figured, it could be duplicated with effort sourcing parts for $20-30k and lots of sweat and house garage labor. Most important item is seat time. I have nearly 9 years of time in this car on track and AX'ing, built everything myself in my garage and pretty well feel at one with the car even though it probably hates the way I treat it! LOL. the question of carb or efi is only 5% of the equation of what is going to make the car fast. Personally, I think you can do a lot more with a stock EFI setup especially with customizing timing and fuel curves to obtain the most area under the curve possible. if you are looking for stupid simple, carb is the way to go if you have patience and know how to tune one. to each their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevepoe Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Here's a prediction...we'll have more CMC cars at the crossovers then AI God I've heard this for the last few years over and over from many different people you just wait. yup always the same. just a couple cars. few years back I was told like 6 guys are building cars for cmc yup car count never changed fact they went down I liked cmc when we had the group of 6 or 7 but no more , which sucks. Sidney you get cmc car counts up and I'll bring two cars back again. I had a carb on a ai car about 5 years ago. I'll never do that again. Scott Hoag almost had to put me and the car out from a carb fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Here's a prediction...we'll have more CMC cars at the crossovers then AI God I've heard this for the last few years over and over from many different people you just wait. yup always the same. just a couple cars. few years back I was told like 6 guys are building cars for cmc yup car count never changed fact they went down I liked cmc when we had the group of 6 or 7 but no more , which sucks. Sidney you get cmc car counts up and I'll bring two cars back again. I had a carb on a ai car about 5 years ago. I'll never do that again. Scott Hoag almost had to put me and the car out from a carb fire. Steve, Hopefully Bryan gets on here soon but I've seen emails with 12 to 15 drivers either with current CMC cars, PT guys, HPDE drivers that are getting licenses, or cars being built. Yes, GL's has been very light with BlueBandit being the only car, however, he didn't run ANY of the crossover events where we would have had 5 cars. King getting pissed didn't help our Toyo Bucks in the Midwest for sure but we're recruiting and sure don't want to loose someone that hasn't given CMC a fair shake. If you commit to bringing (2) cars then having enough for full Toyo Bucks in the GL is very likely with 10 or more cars at crossovers. Sidney CMC #64 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCapaldi Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I'll stick up for Mr. Bluebandit because here at Capaldi Racing we had the poor guy traveling for work with our Mustang Challenge cars during the crossover events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 with work being an issue i can only run select events, when doing that, i would like to know that there will be for sure more than one car there, not getting their license or hpde. as for the parts list... not every one runs areo, even though i already have a wing and building a splitter.. i have the 2000 cobra r brembos for front brakes i plan on running the tokico d spec shocks with the mm coil over kit i dont think i will get into much of the rear suspension this year other than shocks springs and adjustable lower control arms i do plan on running the full mm front suspension car weight.. not an issue.. i own a good sawzall and have lead. CMC was fun but AI is the place to be, thats what i think, everyone has their own opinions. it was fun but i am used to faster cars. my only deal ways i wasnt sure if i wanted to run a carb or FI. and i didnt get off my ass and build a motor to run 3 races becuase i had plans of running AI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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