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ianacole

2010 GTS Rules

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B.Watts

Going forward, it would be helpful to highlight any changes. IIRC, BMW Club Racing highlights changes from year to year in yellow and any mid-season changes in another color. It makes it easy to quickly see changes and to track changes over time.

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DBrehm

Hey What happen! My poor old Merkur is no longer allowed to run in GTS

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Lemming

So, other than rewriting the equation for determining classes, where there any other changes?

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FlyingDog

I've wondered this for a while and maybe it has been discussed before, but I missed it. Mini being included in BMW made me want to ask... Are Audi and VW considered the same manufacturer for engine/chassis matching purposes?

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Lemming
I've wondered this for a while and maybe it has been discussed before, but I missed it. Mini being included in BMW made me want to ask... Are Audi and VW considered the same manufacturer for engine/chassis matching purposes?

 

Might be able to throw Porsche into that mix as well

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Bruce L.

when I first looked at the formula for when torque>HP, the superscripted "*.5" looks like it is trying to indicate a square root. The text before it is unambiguous.

 

bruce

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rlipner

Really surprised to the Mini in there. Yes, it's owned by BMW but then would you allow Lambo in because it's owned by Audi? If the answer is yes then the definition of German Touring Car is a misnomer.

 

Now, having said that I personally don't care if we have a EI (Euro Iron) vs AI (American Iron) type classification but GTS is simply not correct. Ask a 100 people what country does the Mini represent and I would be very surprised if something other than Britain is the answer.

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cstreit911
I've wondered this for a while and maybe it has been discussed before, but I missed it. Mini being included in BMW made me want to ask... Are Audi and VW considered the same manufacturer for engine/chassis matching purposes?

 

Might be able to throw Porsche into that mix as well

 

No. Even though a particular brand of car may be under a holding company that owns several marque's, engine swaps are only allowed within a badged and titled marque. In other words just because VW made some engines for Audi, doesn't mean you can swap engines between them.

 

Ex. If the engine you want to install in your Porsche was installed by the factory in a car badged and titled as a Porsche, you can use it. If the engine you want to install in your VW was installed in an Audi, and NOT installed in a car titled and badged as a VW, even though it was owned by the same company at the time, you still cannot use it.

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FlyingDog

Since most (all?) of the current VW and Audi (and Cayenne) V6s are just evolutions of the VW VR6... what defines and engine? Bare block? Short block? Block and heads? What parts can you swap between them before you violate the engine rule?

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gimpstang
Hey What happen! My poor old Merkur is no longer allowed to run in GTS

 

This kind of pisses me off. The Merkur was sold a a german marque and was assembled in germany. Why does this not qualify as a german car? I've been building a GTS car out of a merk for a year or so now. Banning them without a good reason is really going to irritate me.

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cstreit911

Don't worry guys, there is no way we're going to ban existing members cars.

 

Gimpstang, PM me your email address would you?

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Fred Crawford
Hey What happen! My poor old Merkur is no longer allowed to run in GTS

 

This kind of pisses me off. The Merkur was sold a a german marque and was assembled in germany. Why does this not qualify as a german car? I've been building a GTS car out of a merk for a year or so now. Banning them without a good reason is really going to irritate me.

 

Thats what it looks like...... maybe someone should look at this. You are not the only Merkur around..

 

Fc

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sstecker
Really surprised to the Mini in there. Yes, it's owned by BMW but then would you allow Lambo in because it's owned by Audi? If the answer is yes then the definition of German Touring Car is a misnomer.

 

Now, having said that I personally don't care if we have a EI (Euro Iron) vs AI (American Iron) type classification but GTS is simply not correct. Ask a 100 people what country does the Mini represent and I would be very surprised if something other than Britain is the answer.

 

honda is #2 and ford #3 in the British Touring Car Championship

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RSCoupe
Really surprised to the Mini in there. Yes, it's owned by BMW but then would you allow Lambo in because it's owned by Audi? If the answer is yes then the definition of German Touring Car is a misnomer.

 

Now, having said that I personally don't care if we have a EI (Euro Iron) vs AI (American Iron) type classification but GTS is simply not correct. Ask a 100 people what country does the Mini represent and I would be very surprised if something other than Britain is the answer.

 

honda is #2 and ford #3 in the British Touring Car Championship

 

But I believe the DTM is a german only marque series. (Audi and Mercedes Benz at the moment, and Audi, Opel and BWM in the past).

Edited by Guest

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cstreit911

Fred, et. al.

 

We are looking at it.

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ianacole

Rules have been updated to include the Merkur...check the original link for highlighted changes.

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Lemming

I'm still disappointed that the yearly dyno does not have to be on a Dynojet. If that's the case, why even bother having a dyno at all, let's all just make up a number until someone decides to protest or the NASA dyno's you. Of course, the latter will never happen in the SE, hell, we won't even weigh you.

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Fred Crawford
I'm still disappointed that the yearly dyno does not have to be on a Dynojet. If that's the case, why even bother having a dyno at all, let's all just make up a number until someone decides to protest or the NASA dyno's you. Of course, the latter will never happen in the SE, hell, we won't even weigh you.

 

Dear Tim,

Before I start let me remind you I consider you a friend. Love and kisses. I agree with you about the variance in dynos. However if a racer has a dyno and he is in weight...... he runs the class. Period.

If you believe he is running more hp, because he has used lets say... a more friendly brand dyno..... then all ya have to do is .. protest. The procedure is in the rules. Put your money up. Thats all.

As far as Seast we will start weighing folks more often... but as you know the dyno is were one could possibly streach the rules.. Just protest or just race..

 

fc

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kbrew8991

the RFA (request for action) form is very easy to fill out. Gimme a call and I'll walk you through it if you want Tim

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Jim K in PA

Greetings. New guy here.

 

I am not new to racing, but new to NASA and GTS. I just acquired a car to prep for GTS-1. Since the rules are the first thing one should be familiar with BEFORE preparation begins, I downloaded and read the updated rules. I would like a clarification of the following:

 

5.1. Cockpit adjustable engine management systems

 

All adjustable engine management systems must be declared on the Dynamometer Certification Form.

 

OK - there is an inconsistency here, as well as ambiguity. The section title refers to cockpit adjustable EM, while the body of the text only refers to adjustable EM. Which is the correct characterization?

 

In establishment of similar car preparation rules that I have been involved with, such language usually refers to turbocharged engines. This is due to the fact that adjustable boost pressure, whether adjusted from within the cockpit or elsewhere, obviously has substantial effect on engine performance. Hence, restricting or eliminating such adjustments are prudent to keep things fair. (Sorry - it's the other four letter F-word).

 

However, within the context of section 5.1, it would seem that a manual choke can be considered a cockpit adjustable engine management device. Other series have allowed the use of simple adjustments of engine management signals like coolant temperature, since the net effect on performance is rather small.

 

The way section 5.1 is written, it seems open to much interpretation. However, perhaps I am overstating the issue, and should not worry about it?

 

BTW, I am not preparing a turbocharged car . . . yet. NA engines really should not be affected by this rule, with or without tuneable EFI.

 

Thanks for listening. The flame suit is on . . .

 

Jim K in PA

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ianacole
Greetings. New guy here.

 

I am not new to racing, but new to NASA and GTS. I just acquired a car to prep for GTS-1. Since the rules are the first thing one should be familiar with BEFORE preparation begins, I downloaded and read the updated rules. I would like a clarification of the following:

 

5.1. Cockpit adjustable engine management systems

 

All adjustable engine management systems must be declared on the Dynamometer Certification Form.

 

OK - there is an inconsistency here, as well as ambiguity. The section title refers to cockpit adjustable EM, ...

 

Jim K in PA

 

Jim,

 

Please take a read through this thread and see if it answers your questions: http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=31254. If it doesn't please let me know and I'll attempt to further clarify

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Jim K in PA

Thanks Ian. I did read through that thread, and it does not address the first issue I had. The definition of "Cockpit adjustable" should be pretty straightforward. If you can change engine performance from the driver's seat, it should be declared. Yes?

 

However, the rule title includes the word cockpit, while the body of the rule text does not.

 

So, if I have a boost knob, ECM control, Flux Capacitor switch, etc. on the dash or anywhere accessible while driving the car, it must be declared on the dyno sheet, yes?

 

However, if I have an adjustment for boost pressure located under the hood, or a switch to change sensor ohm values on the firewall, I do not have to declare it?

 

Perhaps I am picking nits, since if I declare the presence of any performance modulating feature located anywhere on the car, I meet the letter of the rule. But, declaring such a device does not appear to have any effect on classification, and failure to declare such a device does not appear to have any consequences.

 

If the intent of the rule is to prompt full disclosure of ANY performance modulating device relative to engine management located ANYWHERE in the vehicle, then the word "cockpit" should be dropped from the rule title, and the above language added to remove ambiguity.

 

Please fill in what I am missing.

 

Jim K in PA

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ianacole

If you can make an adjustment to output power between the checkered flag and impound, the mechanism for doing so needs to be declared ... if that's a switch on the dash, you have a means of opening the hood and adjusting a boost controller while driving your cool down lap, or have a remote control fob for it (Revo software). For the most part, this means anything limited to existing within the cockpit.

 

Do I declare my manual boost controller? No. Do I declare my ECU software even though it requires a laptop and connectivity to the OBD-II port? Yes - the engine parameters can be adjusted from the cockpit. If tech sees me at my car in impound with a laptop, they know I can be making changes that would alter compliance monitoring. If you choose to declare an under-hood switch, knob, adjustment valve, it certainly wouldn't hurt.

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Eric W.

 

As far as Seast we will start weighing folks more often... but as you know the dyno is were one could possibly streach the rules.. Just protest or just race..

 

fc

 

Fred, I agree, however, this presents its own issues. If you protest someone, are you going to follow them to the offsite dyno? Too many things can change between a race and a protest dyno.

 

Although, if the point is to get the competitor to present dynojet numbers, I dont see why it is an issue. Other than you being out $100 for the cost to dyno the competitor.

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