baiwldrnner Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 It sucks to be an underdog on the track. For me, I'm in HPDE 3 and I run with all the fast bunch (Corvettes, Evos, STIs, M3s, Porsches, Mustangs, etc). I know I can never catch up those guys, but I at least want to get faster. Since I have a slow car (115hp and 108 lbs/ft of torque at the crank), does it mean that I have to drive differently? Like do my braking and accelerating points differ? Say for example, there is a perfect 90-degree left turn. Usually, fast guys will brake hard, turn in, and throttle out. For me, would I have to brake as hard, and possibly throttle earlier? I'm asking these questions because at the track, I follow which turns everyone brakes at, and mimick them. However, I dunno if braking would be as necessary for me, since I'm going too slow at first. Laugh if you want at my silly questions, but I just want to learn how to get faster. Quote
krisa9977 Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 (edited) It sucks to be an underdog on the track. For me, I'm in HPDE 3 and I run with all the fast bunch (Corvettes, Evos, STIs, M3s, Porsches, Mustangs, etc). I know I can never catch up those guys, but I at least want to get faster. Since I have a slow car (115hp and 108 lbs/ft of torque at the crank), does it mean that I have to drive differently? Like do my braking and accelerating points differ? Say for example, there is a perfect 90-degree left turn. Usually, fast guys will brake hard, turn in, and throttle out. For me, would I have to brake as hard, and possibly throttle earlier? I'm asking these questions because at the track, I follow which turns everyone brakes at, and mimick them. However, I dunno if braking would be as necessary for me, since I'm going too slow at first. Laugh if you want at my silly questions, but I just want to learn how to get faster. With your car try driving with minimum steering angle, maintaining maximum radius and speed. With 115 hp car, you can glue your gas pedal to the floor and cut your brake pedal off to save some weight. Seriously, you're absolutely right. You don't have to brake as hard and you need to be on throttle earlier Edited November 24, 2009 by Guest Quote
Rob O Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 Try following a Miata or other low hp cars. Just be careful incase they have Hoosiers and you don't. I'm trying to learn too, only in DE2 right now. I'll be watching this thread for tips myself. Quote
Weed Wacker Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 Here is what I used to do. Try to find someone with a similarly lower powered car in TT or W2W and ask them if they would like to talk to you about this. Either that or look for in-car online in said lower powered car. Then try using their braking points starting out with like a 1-2 marker buffer. Try working on ONLY 1 or 2 corners per session getting closer to where they hit the brakes (within what you feel is safe of course). The reason you dont try to do an entire track all at once is if your anything like me you start to overdrive your car or become overwhelmed with information, neither of which helps anything. Keep in mind that everyone's driving and car are different. Who you may be consulting may be a total hack, or maybe the car set-up is way different. These are just starting points to allow you to develop from. You may end up with a better line than the person you were seeking guidance from. Like krisa9977 said, minimum steering angle necessary to hit all your points and maintain momentum. This is key when your looking to get a corvette to point by a sentra Quote
kbrew8991 Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 this is where I'd try and find someone with a similar car, and barring that a Spec Miata driver, and make a new friend Quote
laze1 Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 well, you are driving a "momentum" car...meaning that you goal is to carry as much speed as possible THRU the corner. So this means LESS braking, GREATER slips angles, and getting back on the power AS EARLY AS POSSIBLE! I am going thru a "re-learning" process myself, going from a 350Z w/300 HP and 3500 lbs with driver to a old BMW 325i with 150HP and 2900 LBS with driver... What I have learned is that every mistake you make in a low HP car, CANNOT be recovered by hitting the gas (like in the Z) So one thing to focus on is eliminating mistakes, and hit your marks, don't OVER_BRAKE, and use ALL the TRACK! PS: and draft as much as possible Quote
soundguydave Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 First off, forget about the late-apex line! With a late-apex line, the theory is that you go deep into the corner under braking to extend the straight preceding the corner as much as possible, then make a sharp corner, and get back on the gas ASAP to power out onto the straight following the corner. The more power the car has, the later the apex, as a general rule. You need to go the other way, and run more of a geometric-center line. Start off slow, since this line can put you right off the track at exit if you're not careful! Find a turn-in point that lets you make one steering motion to hit the apex in the center of the corner and then arcs out to the track-out point while still holding that input. You will turn in a lot earlier than the 'Vette/Mustang/Evo/M3 crowd, BUT you'll be on the brakes less, AND you'll turn the wheel less. That lets you carry the maximum SPEED through the corner, rather than relying on acceleration to get the shortest TIME though the corner. Note that you will carry as much throttle through that arc as you can. Now, bit-by-bit, start moving your braking point up closer to the corner to incrementally increase your entry speed until you can barely make it to the track out point before unwinding. Note what your tach reads at exit, and then start playing with the line a bit, moving your apex later and later until you find the highest exit RPM. The pure geometric line probably won't be it, and the deep late-apex line won't be it, but it will be somewhere in between. The goal is to maximize your exit RPM. Once you find that line, and work up to speed, that'll be about as fast as you can possibly take that corner. Basically, work the line that lets you carry the most throttle all the way through the corner. Last, start playing with entry techniques like trail-braking to get you in and rotated so that you can power all the way through Start by prioritizing the corner on the track with the longest following straight. Work that one first, then the corner with the next longest following straight, etc. That will help keep the overall lap speeds highest and keep you from "getting run over," if you follow. It bears repeating, so I will: start slow to find the line, then in small increments, bring the speed up. The late-apex line is a very safe line, easy to control the vehicle position at track-out. The closer you get to the geometric center, the less margin of error you have. Quote
krisa9977 Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 I am going thru a "re-learning" process myself, going from a 350Z w/300 HP and 3500 lbs with driver to a old BMW 325i with 150HP and 2900 LBS with driver... I thought E36 325i has 192hp ??? Quote
laze1 Posted November 24, 2009 Posted November 24, 2009 True, stock OEM power is rated at 192 HP. But mine is producing a MASSIVE 156 RHP on the Balanced Dyno...sad but true. This is a VERY Tired engine T I am going thru a "re-learning" process myself, going from a 350Z w/300 HP and 3500 lbs with driver to a old BMW 325i with 150HP and 2900 LBS with driver... I thought E36 325i has 192hp ??? Quote
DarkSideDE Posted November 27, 2009 Posted November 27, 2009 Why not invite an instructor into your right seat and take some pointers. A good driving coach can help you out, and you sound like you are ready for one. Quote
Zvought Posted November 27, 2009 Posted November 27, 2009 BE SMOOOOOOOOTH like Rico Swuave... Seriously though with the lower power you will want to keep the chassis unloaded and un-bound as much as possible. The harder you pitch the car into the corner the more load it applies to the chassis and drivetrain. Outside of that, drive it till it feels right. Quote
Thedomsaww Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 Try going to an indoor kart racing track because the carts there are very momentum racing oriented. plus u can practice the technique more often at those tracks than say your regular race track. Only down side is its not your car and and its not at the race track but the technique is still the same and u really can feel the diff. when your doing it right in the kart. Quote
mwest Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 A lot of good points made here, I would second getting an instructor to ride with you, preferably a Miata driver or other low hp momentum car. You should also try and catch a ride with an instructor in a Miata or similar car. I found that very helpful when I was making my way up the ranks of HPDE. I encourage all of my students to ride with me for a session or 2. I will normally have them go out in my car for a session in either their run group or 1 up or 1 down depending where their at. Then I'll take them out in the instructors goup for a session to give them a wider perspective on how different the driving is in the different run groups and how a Miata fares in the different run groups. I think it's a lot easier to observe and learn as a passenger and then apply what you've learned as a passenger to your driving. Quote
jason Posted December 1, 2009 Posted December 1, 2009 My car once got stuck in 4th gear for a whole day. I continuted to run and really learned a lot about carrying momentum. Now I recommend it to my students as a learning tool. Every car is a momentum car. Every MPH at corner exit gets you down the straight that much faster. Quote
Robnie0723 Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 My car once got stuck in 4th gear for a whole day. I continuted to run and really learned a lot about carrying momentum. Now I recommend it to my students as a learning tool. Every car is a momentum car. Every MPH at corner exit gets you down the straight that much faster. +1 No braking laps is another fun exercise. Quote
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