In-car GPS monitoring units

[ryan0]

Now to get to the point... are we expecting the GPS to indicate dead on with the Dynojet Dyno used for certification? Probably not, in fact it may potentially be more accurate.

 

i think everyone is missing the point.

 

i doubt they will use the GPS to say "your car made 400 HP and your dyno said 380... DQ!"

 

i would think they will be doing kind of differential test.. lets say they take readings during qualifying and you made 1203HP as a base reading, and qualified poorly... but in the race your reading was now 1457HP... you obviously saw your bad Q position and remapped, upped boost, pulled a restrictor or something.

 

call everyones base qualifying HP zero.. or a million. it doesnt matter... they will be looking for a big jump in HP when it counts... like the race, last 3 laps, TT final run, etc.

[Greg G.]

Ryan,

 

There is really no difference between someone qualifying and the GPS reading 370 hp, and then racing with the GPS reading 400 hp (and the Dynojet showing 370 hp), and someone else that both qualified and raced with the GPS reading 400 hp, and the Dynojet showing 370 hp. One problem currently (and may never get solved, because if drivers/teams can cheat in F1 and cheat in NASCAR and get away with it) is that we highly "suspect" that there are teams out there in our Dyno classes that have devised methods of showing a significantly lower hp on the Dyno than the car is actually making on the track. We know many of the methods "possibly" used. Matt is correct that items like ram air and some intercoolers do need to be taken into account. However, as Danny pointed out, we are looking for the bigger "questions", not trying to quibble over 3 hp. As well, there are many races where Dyno testing is just not available, and there is nobody that wants to spend Monday driving a "sealed" car to a Dyno (including Officials). As well, once GPS units are approved, you can go out and get your own (maybe on a cheaper group buy as well), and you can continuously monitor yourself.

[ryan0]

Ryan,

We know many of the methods "possibly" used.

 

 

i had a evo once... i could flick a switch and make 100 extra HP.. MAGIC!

[Bueller]

Ryan,

We know many of the methods "possibly" used.

 

 

i had a evo once... i could flick a switch and make 100 extra HP.. MAGIC!

 

But cant something like this be done with non-turbo cars also? Basically, cant pretty much every car have some sort of switch, or way, to increase their power secretly?

[Balroks]

Pretty much anything with an ECU - OEM or not - can.

[ryan0]

Pretty much anything with an ECU - OEM or not - can.

 

you cant switch maps as easily on an OEM system... at least not on mine.

[Jaymz]

It's a heck of alot easier with a turbo car to have multiple boost settings with the flick of a switch. Harder to do with a NA motor..

 

I hope this class doesn't go to that as it's fun right now and is starting to get a decent draw.

[Bueller]

It's a heck of alot easier with a turbo car to have multiple boost settings with the flick of a switch. Harder to do with a NA motor..

 

I hope this class doesn't go to that as it's fun right now and is starting to get a decent draw.

 

From what ive seen and heard over the last 2-3 years, turbo cars definitely get a lot of bad publicity. And i understand because i have an Evo that im racing in ST2. I started racing in 2009 so im really new to all this. Im the only one racing an Evo in Socal, and maybe the only one who is currently racing one in the West coast. So maybe when others see me racing an Evo, they too might want to try racing their Evo. When the competition is tight, im sure everyone is a little skeptical of their competition. So maybe i might be skeptical with people who may race an Evo in the future. However, im sure the same skepticism is present between Vette drivers, or guys with BMWs, or guys with Porsches, and so forth. If someone wants to cheat, it doesnt matter what type of car they have. If they want to cheat, they will figure out a way to cheat. I too hope ST doesnt go down that road because i love racing in ST. But i think that the racers are the responsible ones. Its up to us what we want to make of this series.

[ryan0]

If someone wants to cheat, it doesnt matter what type of car they have. If they want to cheat, they will figure out a way to cheat.

 

 

I think this is an easy step to catch obvious cheaters.. its too easy to flip a switch.

[Balroks]

My only hope is I don't have to spend super $$$ on the GPS unit like on AMB's.

[ST#97]

using GPS to look for "trends" is the only way IMHO to do this. that being said, putting the unit on the car (face it, we are talking about the magnetic traqmate unit) for one session with the driver knowing it means the right foot doesn't work as hard that session. Only way to make this work is to leave it on the car all weekend and compare the entire amount of data....are the officials really wanting to offer up that much time for the front 3 to 5 cars at a regional event? National event?

 

We used the units in AI this year and when the info was taken back and analyzed, they focused on the acceleration curves. They were identical once the front running cars were found to be legal on the site dyno.....yet they couldn't explain the 2 second lap differences. Case in point, once the fastest car had the ECU removed and sealed and held overnight till just before the race....that car was significantly slower. Driver claims to have added 100lbs of ballast to be safe due to crazy dyno numbers (the dyno was pretty inaccurate)....however, I have been 100lbs over minimum before and it only cost me a couple tenths....not a couple seconds.

 

 

While I like the idea of the GPS systems because you can also use the data to become faster, I just don't think you can use them exclusively for compliance.....especially in a region that might run a large run group and traffic comes into play.

[Paisan]

Also I know on the subarus you can program the change to be via a built in switch on the car. For instance hit the rear defroster switch 3x within 10 seconds and it will go to map #1, etc. etc.

 

I'm sure Subarus aren't the only ones out there that this can be done with. So having a dyno at the track other than to keep the honest people honest is a waste of resources IMO.

 

-mike

[jrgordonsenior]

Just read this thread.... What about usuing a real data logger connected to the ECU and exhaust flow? They're reasonably cheap and can show the A/F ratios among other inputs. It would be most valuable highlighting dramatic changes from session to session or qualifying to race.....

[erioshi]

Just read this thread.... What about usuing a real data logger connected to the ECU and exhaust flow? They're reasonably cheap and can show the A/F ratios among other inputs. It would be most valuable highlighting dramatic changes from session to session or qualifying to race.....

I'm not sure that monitoring AFR would matter. In most cars power really comes from timing and/or boost or perhaps a temporarily increased redline; with all the tricks available in some modern stock ECUs you'd never catch what happened unless you monitored either a range of criteria, or treated it all as a black box and just looked at the car's performance as an end result.

 

I would think if you were to compare lap data to competitors and the same car's other laps you could see if something looked specifically odd. The tool might not be 100%, but I think even if there was some rule bending going, the bends might get smaller in the hope of flying beneath the radar. Of course if they manage to slip past detection, we run the risk of basing the data pool on data from one or more cars that are already above the allowable spec.

 

I really believe this is a hard problem, and it will take work to sort out. But I also believe that working towards a solution is probably ultimately going to improve the quality of the racing experience for everyone, and is worth the work of pursuing.

[Paisan]

With lots of modern cars going to turbo and sc and direct injection in the next 10 years, NASA should be the leader in terms of amateur racing and getting us to move beyond the antiquated dyno method of policing hp/weight ratios.

 

Not sure what the exact solution is but I'm willing to try out possibilities.

 

Mike

[L98Terror]

It's a heck of alot easier with a turbo car to have multiple boost settings with the flick of a switch. Harder to do with a NA motor..

 

I hope this class doesn't go to that as it's fun right now and is starting to get a decent draw.

 

From what ive seen and heard over the last 2-3 years, turbo cars definitely get a lot of bad publicity. And i understand because i have an Evo that im racing in ST2. I started racing in 2009 so im really new to all this. Im the only one racing an Evo in Socal, and maybe the only one who is currently racing one in the West coast. So maybe when others see me racing an Evo, they too might want to try racing their Evo. When the competition is tight, im sure everyone is a little skeptical of their competition. So maybe i might be skeptical with people who may race an Evo in the future. However, im sure the same skepticism is present between Vette drivers, or guys with BMWs, or guys with Porsches, and so forth. If someone wants to cheat, it doesnt matter what type of car they have. If they want to cheat, they will figure out a way to cheat. I too hope ST doesnt go down that road because i love racing in ST. But i think that the racers are the responsible ones. Its up to us what we want to make of this series.

 

 

You know what make me a sleptic is when a car is 500# lighter and has a much high hp/lb ratio yet pulls you down the straight & you're able to reel them in in the corners. A lighter car should be faster in the corners and slower on the straights. I for one think it's a good idea to have the GPS in all the top cars, I also think in TT you should have to back up your fastest lap time, I'm all for averaging your fastest 2 or 3 laps at Nationals so you can't pull out one fast lap and win. All you need to do is get by tech once.