Proposed 2005 rules changes summarized. Vote here.

[Tim Comeau]

Ok guys. We're getting all the supporting issues out in the open. That's great. It's gives our drivers enough info to make some more educated input. Let's bring the ideas presented, for the reasons discussed, into a summary.

Please keep in mind that since we have differing opinions expressed here, some drivers are going to have to accept what is to them, the wrong final decision.

 

The former national class director( a position which no longer exists), Dan Webb, had a favorite saying; "This is not a democracy." He sat tight on the rules and wouldn't budge. I'm extremely pleased to be part of this discussion among us affected drivers. We had no choice but to enforce the rules as they existed before. We couldn't change things for the better. After living with them for a while, I could see the problem areas and tried to address every one of them in my portion of input for the POC version of the rules.

As I said, not everyone is going to be happy, but I'll bend to try to make the most current drivers happy, while balancing that with the future driver's desires to build a cheap, simple, equal 944.

That having been said, it looks like there are 5 issues to finalize. I assume the rest of the rules are ok?

Here's what I'd like to see as a compromise package. These are my opinions as a driver right now, not as a series director making the final decision.

1. Flywheels lightened + 50 lbs added.

Bad idea after discussing it. Good intentions, bad possible outcome. Increased costs. Let's keep our flywheel rule stock and add 50 lbs to those spec-944 cars when they race with us.

2. Kill switches.

Every other sanctioning body requires these in the interest of safety. It's no fun trying to put out a fire when the battery is still connected to the fuel pump and it's......yada yada. They don't cost much. Still, why don't we write the rule to strongly encourage them for 2005 and require them for 2006?

3. Short shifters.

Reasons given for this mod are more precise shifting, which can be had by freshening up the stock unit for much less money. Retailers sell it by claiming faster shifting. New guys coming into the class will feel like they need one to be competitive. No one has one right now? Maybe one driver? We have a chance to contain this cost right now. I strongly suggest NO short shifters. Keep them stock.

4. Cages welded to A & B pillars.

It comes down to this. Pro= safety, Con= performance advantage, cost. There's no way to nail down the quantity of any of these factors. I move that we make it allowable, but not required, like all other sanctioning bodies. Don't spend the money if you don't want to. Let's encourage other cage mods like the foot protector extensions, NASCAR door bars, knee bars, etc. Some say we don't go that fast so we don't need such strong cages. I'm concerned with someone else T-boning me when they're doing 150 mph. I've learned to think hard about going against any increased safety idea.

5. Exterior mirrors.

Most cars still have the stock mirrors that came with the car for free. Every body has the same aero factor that way. No money spent. To me this issue is a no brainer; contain this cost/advantage issue now while we can with the simplest of solutions...keep it stock. I haven't heard 1 good arguement for going away from stock. The mirrors are too heavy? B.S. The mirrors cost too much to replace? Call autobahn. There's absolutely NO aero issue to argue if we just keep them stock.

 

So, please respond to each number with agree or disagree in a short sentence that will make your intent clear. No more reasons needed? We've discussed them all?

Like this.

1. Agreed. keep flywheels stock.

2. Disagree. Make kill switches mandatory asap.

 

Let's finish this house cleaning up and get to the fun stuff we call racing!

Thanks a ton for taking the time to voice your opinions, whatever they are. It shows you give a damn. Just don't be too disappointed with the final results.

Have a safe Happy New Year's celebration!

Cheers!

Edited December 31, 2004 by Guest

[Spec-944#70]

I'm fine with everything you said except for the reasoning on the mirror. You claim we keep the aero factor the same this way? What about the aero advantage of the 924S? Since that car can now increase it's track width it now has an even bigger advantage than a car with aero mirrors. And what are we going to do to the cars with aero mirrors that decide to race with us?

[Tim Comeau]

The 924S's track width is still much narrower even with the allowed mods. A wider track is better all the way around the course. A narrow body is only better at top speed.

I don't want to exclude any 944's from racng with us and I don't plan too. I've made that clear to Glen, too. I don't have a good answer for you right now on what to do about cars with mod'd mirrors, but we'll deal with it fairly if and when it arises.

[Spec-944#70]

Cool. I still don't think it matters but it's your call!

[Packfill]

Being a "FNG," I have lurked, but not offered opinion, as I didnt like the tone of this (and similar) strings. However, now that Master Tim has corraled the emotion and brought back the sense of community that convinced me to buy one of these cars, I would like to offer my (worthless) opinion...

 

I agree on ALL items of Tims latest post, with one exception. Until you can absolutely define the advantage of a lightened flywheel, you cannot arbitrarily choose a weight. Some of us will be running 50 lbs heavy, anyway. Should we then just go get the flywheel done? Perhaps when the AZ contingent races with us, we all run together, but score seperately...

 

Here is my response as Tim requests it...

 

1 Lightened Flywheel-No

2 Kill Switches-Yes (Could someone post a picture of how to do this and what/where to buy the switch!)

3 Short Shifters-No

4 Cages-Yes

5 Exterior Mirrors-Yes, Stock

 

Coming from a successful Spec Kart Program, I have some idea what it takes to make a spec series successful. Our rules were RIGID. (ie. Motors built at the factory and wired shut with a unbreakable tag, so NO tampering) This eliminated ANY thoughts of cheating. When someone beat you, they out drove you....period. This made for an attriactive program, and has grown from new, to the largest fields in Karting in 4 years....I believe our class can do the same........

 

So whatever the rules become, post them and stick to them.

Edited January 1, 2005 by Guest

[PeanutinCA]

1. Flywheels lightened + 50 lbs added. No. Cannot quantify the benefit of the mod. Every guy beaten by a lightened flywheel (not literally ) will argue it's not enough penalty. And EXACTLY as Jim Marks said, my car is also abut 50-80lbs heavy. I don't have many more options to loose weight.

2. Kill switches. strongly encourage them for 2005 and require them for 2006? Perfect!

3. Short shifters. set a spec short shift or "Keep them stock".

4.a Cages welded to A & B pillars. I think I'm now for it so that it crosses over with other sanctioning bodies (that and Neil the "bad cop" roughed me up!

4.b Cages, extra protection. Foot bars, sure. I think it would be too close to the main hoop to add any extra stiffness. Knee bar, which is actually helpful in side impact I would think, yes on that too.

5. Exterior mirrors. Not sure on this one. I would like the ease of buying my $15 mirrors. I'm a "no vote" (which is not a "no" vote) on this one.

6. Extra cooling. Wasn't this up for discussion? I'm for it seeing as I cannot get my car to run below 3/4+.

 

I am for the other group(s) driving with us, but scoring their own points. But I will note here and now, it will suck to have another "class" driver mess with my (your) inner class battle. It's no fun when someone gets in the middle of your class battle, I have first hand experience.

 

Have a Good New Year mates!

 

P.Dilly.

[uberklasse]

I am easy on this one:

 

Agree with everything that Tim listed. Eric brings up a good point about the mirrors and think we should never keep someone out of a race for them, however the rule should be for stock mirrors. I would rather have Dylan, Glen or whoever in the race with non-stock mirrors than beating me in another class!

 

Even if we had sealed engines (like the spec karts, spec racer fords etc.)

there will always be the excuses and gamesmanship....it's that way with any sport! I have friends in spec racer ford and have been looking into spec karts since I just bought my son a kid kart..they don't have the engine issues, but chassis differ and unless EVERYONE has the EXACT same car which is virtually impossible there will always be excuses...it's human nature and actually part of the fun.

 

How about these?

he has an '88 and I have an '83

he has 30mm torsion bars and I am stock

he has a big shop supporting him at the track and I don't know what the hell I am doing mechanically

he has a trailer and I have to drive my car to the track

he has driven the track before and I haven't even taken a practice lap

he has the perfect setup and my car is all messed up

he has been driving for years and I just started

I was out late last night drinking and slept in my trunk while he was in his comfy hotel room eating room service

I haven't been able to focus on driving since I am so busy at work, he doesn't have to work he has so much money

I am fat, can't stop eating and that skinny bastard has 50 pounds on me!

 

 

I tell this to people when selling them used cars "just like people, no 2 used cars can ever be the same" and it really applies to our series.

We are doing a great job of trying to make the playing field as level as possible...let's just race! I know I am anxious to get my I've got stock sway bars, no 5th gear, no lsd, no chip, weighing more than last year excuse making butt out on the track.

 

Happy New Year everyone, '05 is going to be fun!

[n wright]

Tim,

 

Very well put.

 

1-Agree- keep it stock or add the weight

 

2-Agree- Get a kill switch. Cheap and easy safety

 

3-Disagree- Allow it to clean up the slop and enhance the driving experience. Save some valves and lifters by avoiding missed shifts.

 

4-Agree- Weld to the pillars. It works everywhere

 

5-Agree- Keep em stock. They're everywhere, cheap, and look good

 

I think I deserve the award for following the response rules!

[Chris Benbow]

Happy New Year to everyone.

 

Thanks to Tim and Steve for taking the time and effort to organize what is destined to become an even better racing class in 2005.

 

1) Disagree, I would prefer a stricter rule that excludes lightened flywheels entirely, but would vote for the weight penalty if it means including more cars in our class. A greater penalty (eg. 100 Lbs) would be better. I'll admit I was wondering if it would still be better to get a lightened flywheel myself with only a 50 Lb penalty. Make it a clear disadvantage to have one.

 

2)Agree, with gradual phase in as described

3)Agree, why add anything that most/all don't have now

4)Agree, but I think you'll need more than a few little tabs between the cage and chassis to make any difference in safety (or stiffness).

5)Agree, keep the cars looking the same.

[greg f]

I have contacted as many of my guys here in the NW as was practical and came up with this synopsis:

 

1. Disagree- (No lightened flywheels should be allowed)

2. Agree_ ( we all have them anyway)

3. Disagree-( should be allowed by the same logic that throttle cams are allowed, or maybe get rid of throttle cams. Only 2 cars here have cams)

4. Disagree- ( In other sanctioning bodies this is a GT only mod, but foot protection, kneebars should be encouraged)

5. Agree- ( stock mirrors are best)

6. Agree- ( Adequate cooling= maximum reliability)

 

Did a revision to your shock rule get included here? The guys here are ok with just removing the "two adjustment maximum" wording. Greg Fordahl

[Tim Comeau]

2 adjustment maximum meant rebound and compression right? Not 2 clicks on the rebound?

[greg f]

Yes, that is the way I would read ( and word) the rule. Just trying to keep the "big" picture in mind so that a completed car could be run legally in SCCA, NASA, POC, or PCA events. Keeps the resale high and the frustration low! Greg F

[mfoley]

1. Disagree - I've changed my mind. No lightened flywheels. We'll never agree on the weight penalty.

2. Agree - Phase them in

3. Agree - Not necessary so don't escalate the issue

4. Agree - Although I'd hate to see this creep in and become mandatory

5. Agree - Keep 'em looking the same

 

Happy New Year ... Go Trojans!

[944-Spec#94]

1) Stock for 2600, At least at 50 lbs penalty for lightened. I wish we did not have to, but ... I think a penalty allowance is best for the field size. No change per latest posted rules 2004

 

 

2) Kill Swithes - Require them. Basic Safety it should be a non-issue

No change per latest posted rules 2004

 

3) Short Shift - Keep them stock (not that important however)

No change per latest posted rules 2004

 

4) Cages to A & B Pillers - No... use SCCA IT Cage rules and allow the foot bars only.

Updated to SCCA IT Cage points rules

 

5) Mirrors - Keep them stock, but i don't really care much.

 

6) Extra cooling... I think our rule are fine right now as written allowing a spoiler mod, external oil coolers, and direct wired stock fans.

No change per latest posted rules 2004