Standing Starts - In or Out of 2010 ?

[tacovini]

I don't have a definitive answer for you right now, Dave, however I appreciate you bringing this up NOW vs. 2 weeks before Nats.

We'll try to nail this down in 1Q10 to give everyone ample notice.

 

My preference has and always will be for a standing start.

Given everyone else's preferences we've regionally compromised and had standing starts 50% of the time.

Flexibility is king....so don't box yourself in a corner so that you can't do either type of start (mechanically or experience-wise)

 

At 2010 Nationals, I propose that we do one qualifying race as a standing start....one qualifying race as a rolling start (AI only).

The big show (the big kahuna, the whole enchilada, the mother lode, etc) will be determined by either overwhelming majority (based on the prior 2 races), a coin toss or other means the race director determines.

 

-=- Todd

 

PS- I'll talk this over with your regional series directors to see if we can get some standing start practice in.

[05 Ross]

IMO the AI drivers (and NASA officials for allowing it) did a piss poor job of the 2009 national race rolling start, if we can't get that right how the f... do you think we can get 20 guys to stop at the right place, at the right time, and go at the right time??

And...I've never understood why CMC drivers feel they need to post on the AI forum, but certainly their experiences are NOT relevant to this thread.

 

Ross Murray AI 74

[King Matt]

Sorry Ross, but you're dead wrong. First of all, 3) CMC is part of the American Iron Series, 2) CMC cars are more like AI cars than they are different, and 3) in most regions they run in the same run group, so experience with starting procedures is most definitely relevant.

 

edit: Oh, and another reason: About half the AI regional directors including the National director are CMC racers, so get used to it.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Guest

[T&A Racing]

I have never done a standing start, in a real race situation. Did do a couple of test ones at a racing school. My only request is if we really want to do them at Nats lets make sure we get a chance to try them at our regional events, maybe even a mock one during a warm up session. Doing them just for fun at Nats seems a little odd.

 

Thanks

[firehawkclone]

Sorry Ross, but you're dead wrong. First of all, 3) CMC is part of the American Iron Series, 2) CMC cars are more like AI cars than they are different, and 3) in most regions they run in the same run group, so experience with starting procedures is most definitely relevant.

 

edit: Oh, and another reason: About half the AI regional directors including the National director are CMC racers, so get used to it.

 

And all points don't mean anything! The only one's that do... Do you run or are you a director of AI? If not go over to the CMC board! Or have you been kicked off that to!

 

You like to cuase wave's don't you Matt!

[05 Ross]

Matt, as a frequent poster to this forum some may assume that you are some kind of expert, but what you fail to acknowledge (relevant to this thread) is that many AI cars can and do run a considerably different flywheel and clutch than your 3 season old CMC legal stock peice.

 

Ross Murray AI 74

[tacovini]

OK guys....let's keep it nice.

Ross...take the high road and wear that Championship crown proudly.

Matt...don't stir the pot. Standing starts were a controversial issue before nats and remain one now.

(You do seem to be the Jesse Jackson of roadracing. Where ever there's controversy...."There he is!")

 

I've personnally sold my CMC car and am jumping into the AI pool head first. (Entertaining possible AI turnkey cars to purchase/play in.)

I've gotten commitment from some regional CMC directors to also lead AI...and vice versa for some AI directors to lead CMC.

We've seen AI cars do standing starts and with the traction levels our Toyo's have and the low RPM's we're launching at, we haven't seen a standing start driveline failure to date...in AI or CMC. It's very natural for those who have never done standing starts to resist doing them....and also very common for them to like & want standing starts after they become the norm.

 

Standing starts actually neutralize the start and minimize the need to "get it right".

Everyone is stopped.

Everyone is in the same gear.

The race isn't started until eveyone is in position.

If anyone is moving, it's quite obvious.

From a "start" perspective, it's the best you're going to get.

(Attracts former drag racers to the series. )

All other concerns & considerations apply for both standing & rolling starts equally, with one exception....speeds at T1 are lower and more manageable.

With that said, people are going to want what they know and what they are used to.

 

I think standing starts are good for the series, good for the competition and good differentiation from other series...but it will take everyone to make that happen.

We will need to have some regional standing start races occasionally so that Nationals aren't the first time for some. This was one of the reasons we didn't do standing starts at the '09 Nats. We'll continue discussions with all the regions with the goal to see if we can make at least one National standing start race.

[King Matt]

(You do seem to be the Jesse Jackson of roadracing. Where ever there's controversy...."There he is!")

More like Al Sharpton. And yes, Ross, I know all about the small clutches. Doesn't making standing starts impossible.

 

Ross, my experience with a stock clutch may not be relevant to you if you are running a small one, but for the 90 percent of AI cars that are running stock-type clutches, it's plenty relevant, as are all the other issues with running standing starts beyond the mechanical details.

[b_tone]

I'd like to go on record with my stance against standing starts. Rolling starts for me thank you very much.

[kbrew8991]

my first race start ever out of comp school was a standing start - front stretch of Road Atlanta even. I don't get why people are so scared of them...

[firehawkclone]

I could never get SoCal to do them, I did have an LT1 than making alot of Tq I did a few in TT though

 

Since Adam G. is are acting Director it may happen this year which will be cool! It will be quite a site to see AIX/AI/CMC2/CMC all take a standing start!

[Micks 41]

I highly doubt you will ever see an AIX standing start.

[kbrew8991]

I highly doubt you will ever see an AIX standing start.

 

AIX is high strung enough I can understand it being a bad idea

CMC is low strung enough that it outta be required

AI - mix it up

[gbrown8439]

I highly doubt you will ever see an AIX standing start.

 

 

Why, you scared??

[Micks 41]

 

It's you guys with the forced induction that will smoke your tires.

[Grizlbits]

I'm having problems with the rolling starts spinning the tires with the new turbo car (but only up to 100 mph or so).

[kbrew8991]

I'm having problems with the rolling starts spinning the tires with the new turbo car (but only up to 100 mph or so).

 

[D Algozine]

Todd, Thanks for the clarification.

 

Chris, I am to assume that if the Nationals will have at least one standing start, then we should be doing them in our region, prior to Nationals. Am I correct? I don't think anyone wants to be surprised by this. I think we should have ample notification, so drivers can decide if they want to make changes to set there cars up for a launch.

 

Ross, I'm with you on your frustration with the National race start.

[Grizlbits]

Dave,

 

If the directors decide to do standing starts at Nationals (which we be decided before May), we will try to do 50% standing starts in the MW/GL regions. Probably the last race of the weekend to reduce the DNF's due to suspected (warranted or unwarranted) carnage.

[nape]

Those of you who say AI cars should do standing starts have never driven an AI car without a CMC clutch.

 

But, since AI is turning into CMC, I guess that will be bound to happen. Glad I still have the stock flywheel/autozone clutch on the shelf.

 

CMC flywheel/clutch/PP = 40lbs

 

AI flywheel/clutch/PP = 10lbs

 

Ask the CMC guys who drove my car at the last race at Putnam Park how much the clutch slips?

 

For those who suggest an AL flywheel with the stock setup to reduce weight, my light setup cost less then your flywheel.

[swhiteh3]

I'd like to go on record with my stance against standing starts. Rolling starts for me thank you very much.

I agree completely. Standing starts are more likely to have issues with mechanical breakage, more likely to leave a stalled car in the middle of the track, more likely to leave someone missing a shift and creating an accordian effect, etc... Oh, and just because people can't manage a proper standing start is no reason to dumb it down.

[Holster Maker]

I totally agree with Scott.

Rolling starts are a lot safer.

[92MNstanger]

Those of you who say AI cars should do standing starts have never driven an AI car without a CMC clutch.

 

But, since AI is turning into CMC, I guess that will be bound to happen. Glad I still have the stock flywheel/autozone clutch on the shelf.

 

CMC flywheel/clutch/PP = 40lbs

 

AI flywheel/clutch/PP = 10lbs

 

Ask the CMC guys who drove my car at the last race at Putnam Park how much the clutch slips?

 

For those who suggest an AL flywheel with the stock setup to reduce weight, my light setup cost less then your flywheel.

 

 

Don't the Speed World Challenge guys do it every weekend TJ?

 

Keep the lightweight set up, 30lbs at engine speed is way too much to put back in.

[robbodleimages]

this is just my opinion which is worth nothing. F1 does a standing start because its loud and exciting to watch. They want a wild start. Its part of the package. NASCAR and Indycar want a calm start and a good race. They don't want a wild start.

 

In the driver's meetings before a Sprint Cup race they tell the drivers that the race isn't won on the first lap and their rules discourage passing between start/finish and T1. In the driver's meeting for the Indianapolis 500 they tell the drivers to spread the rows out comfortably and plead with them to get thru T1 and T2 before they start racing. I've heard Brian Barnhardt talk about this several times in the past.

 

We are amateur racers. Which do we want? A wild start or a start that encourages us to have a good/complete race? Since we are supposed to be doing this for fun why are so many interested in what happens between start/finish and T1?

[firehawkclone]

Are starts are allways going to be sprited, i think becuase its a sprint race and we don't have very many laps to get it done. That said, there are drivers that will force it down in there. Not with the intent to cause damage to other cars, but i think they are hoping the other driver will back out. And we all know what happens when both drivers think that way! I wouldn't mind doing standing starts with my NorCal/SoCal guys, as most of us would do with are locals. But at Nationals i don't think so, to many new drivers we don't race with! I was hit in the side during a rolling start this year by a driver that got scared that he was being split by two other drivers just past the start/finish.

 

So either way body contact will happen on a start during a sprint race! Im sure Todd will fix the rolling start issue that happen at this years nationals next year! Since CMC and AI run different groups at Nationals, there might be enough extra drivers to help watch the start of each others race!